Poll: Is there enough publicly known evidence to indict Donald Trump

[HomerJS]

Not guilty or innocent, that would come at trial. Is the enough publicly know evidence to conclude there is probable cause a crime was committed?

Voter fraud, election fraud, sedition, conspiracy.

Here's what we have now...

Fake electors across several states submitting falsified slates to the National Archives, organized by Rudy Guliani (Trump's lawyer)
White house memo detailing how to overturn the election (Eastman memo)
Draft executive orders on using the military to seize voting machines.
Georgia phone call to Sec of State demanding he "find" 11,701 votes
Trump promising pardons for Jan 6 insurrectionists (witness tampering) which effects future testimony
Trump admitted he wanted Pence to overturn the election
Failure to act on Jan 6 for over 2 hours.

 

[Lezunto]

Nice compilation, HomerJS.

That's host of criminal acts.

 

[Greenman]

Properly presented I'd say yes, there is enough evidence for an indictment. The question that actually matters is, is there enough evidence for a conviction?

My issue is that every story I've ever read about most of those events contains the presumption of guilt. That's fine for a news outlet, doesn't work in court.

 

[rommelrommel]

Fake electors - probably not, hasn’t been tied to him. Rudy should be indicted tho.

Eastman memo - no, likely not a crime

Draft executive orders - no, not a crime

Georgia phone call - maybe, unlikely to secure a conviction I think.

Promising pardons - no, not a crime

Wanting Pence to accept the alternate electors - no, likely not a crime

Failure to act - no, that’s within the powers of the President and should have led to impeachment but not charges.

Frankly I think these investigations have little to nothing on him, at least of what’s made it public. And, it’s worse to swing and miss. Let’s wait until something solid comes up. Squeeze Rudy till he squeals.

 

[shortylickens]

This guy is the quintessential teflon man.
Forget about prosecuting him. It won't succeed. Just let the guy rattle his cage, look whiny, and disenfranchise his voter base. Those people only respect power. Or rather the appearance of power. As he looks more and more pathetic they will move on to better candidates. But you are never going to land him in prison. Stop trying. Waste of tax dollars.

Besides which, Donald is not the problem. He never was. The real problem is tens of millions of Americans brainwashed by propaganda. And he was just one of them.
They're gonna find somebody else just as disgustingly intertwined with the modern horseshit conservative rhetoric, and vote for that piece of crap.
Wouldn't surprise me if they could even dig up a black man with the same basic M.O. as Donald.

 

[Moonbeam]

Merrick Garland is an f-ing idiot liberal in my opinion. The damage being done by Trump to peoples’ faith in law and order and the frustration and rage that they are experiencing demands that charges be brought in my opinion. I am now equally as desirous of tagging him with the destruction of the country as I am Trump. I want mom fired and replaced by somebody on fire for justice. Biden should propose to top any bribe to a jury that convicts with a promise of pardon for any charges they might be charged with for accepted bribes.

 

[HomerJS]

Properly presented I'd say yes, there is enough evidence for an indictment. The question that actually matters is, is there enough evidence for a conviction?

My issue is that every story I've ever read about most of those events contains the presumption of guilt. That's fine for a news outlet, doesn't work in court.

When you admit it in public how is it a presumption?

 

[sandorski]

How many Confessions do you need?

 

[HomerJS]

Fake electors - probably not, hasn’t been tied to him. Rudy should be indicted tho.

Eastman memo - no, likely not a crime

Draft executive orders - no, not a crime

Georgia phone call - maybe, unlikely to secure a conviction I think.

Promising pardons - no, not a crime

Wanting Pence to accept the alternate electors - no, likely not a crime

Failure to act - no, that’s within the powers of the President and should have led to impeachment but not charges.

Frankly I think these investigations have little to nothing on him, at least of what’s made it public. And, it’s worse to swing and miss. Let’s wait until something solid comes up. Squeeze Rudy till he squeals.

Rudy was already working for Trump. Think he did all that on his own?

Eastman memo. If someone draws up plans to rob a bank and a group executes it, that person will be charged as an accessory.

Draft executive orders. Again using the military to confiscate voting machines is a crime. Posse comitatus.

GA phone call. Election fraud is illegal. DA down there is already doing a criminal investigation with a GJ.

Promising pardons to influence witnesses already appearing before committee is tampering. You can't pardon to do an illegal act.

Failure to act - I'll give you that one.

Pence accepting alternate electors to overturn a free and fair election isn't illegal. What country do you live in again??? That's a coup

 

[rommelrommel]

Look, I think Trump committed a raft of crimes, but charging him requires a reasonable chance of conviction.

I think Trump knew about Rudy and the alternate electors but that’s reasonable suspicion and not reasonable grounds to believe.

Eastman memo and the rest of the election stuff they’re going to argue he believed the election was being stolen and was only making counter plans.

Draft EO, nothing happened, never issued, and Presidents likely cannot be charged for unconstitutional EO’s even if they’re issued and acted on.

GA phone call, his demand was just vague enough to raise doubt.

Pardons, the President can pardon anyone for any reason. Again that‘s an impeachment issue.

 

[HomerJS]

Look, I think Trump committed a raft of crimes, but charging him requires a reasonable chance of conviction.

I think Trump knew about Rudy and the alternate electors but that’s reasonable suspicion and not reasonable grounds to believe.

Eastman memo and the rest of the election stuff they’re going to argue he believed the election was being stolen and was only making counter plans.

Draft EO, nothing happened, never issued, and Presidents likely cannot be charged for unconstitutional EO’s even if they’re issued and acted on.

GA phone call, his demand was just vague enough to raise doubt.

Pardons, the President can pardon anyone for any reason. Again that‘s an impeachment issue.

Trump promising a pardon BEFORE elected is witness tampering. ILLEGAL.
If Trump promised to pardon anyone if they kill the Jan 6 committee chairman that would be illegal

Remember these are promises made BEFORE he is President

 

[pcgeek11]

All I have to say about it is I'm tired of hearing how they have all of this proof and evidence. If they do, I wish they would go ahead and put his orange @SS in jail so we can move on and the Dems, Progressives, and Liberals can evict him from their skulls and we can move on.

To quote a famous poster here who's name escapes me:

Crap or get off the pot about Donald Trump.

 

[ch33zw1z]

All I have to say about it is I'm tired of hearing how they have all of this proof and evidence. If they do, I wish they would go ahead and put his orange @SS in jail so we can move on and the Dems, Progressives, and Liberals can evict him from their skulls and we can move on.

To quote a famous poster here who's name escapes me:

Crap or get off the pot about Donald Trump.

Kinda like Obama and Hilary are still renting space in conservatives brains. Or hunters laptop, lol.

If conservatives wanna to forget they voted for trump, your post adds up.

 

[HomerJS]

All I have to say about it is I'm tired of hearing how they have all of this proof and evidence. If they do, I wish they would go ahead and put his orange @SS in jail so we can move on and the Dems, Progressives, and Liberals can evict him from their skulls and we can move on.

To quote a famous poster here who's name escapes me:

Crap or get off the pot about Donald Trump.

Everyone knows if the negro elected in 2008 had done half this stuff, Republicans would have had him arrested already. Trump is walking around because of affirmative action white guy style.

 

[eelw]

Moving to the trial. You’ll get a MAGAtard to lie during jury selection and say the are impartial. And then get a hung jury even when there’s physical evidence of their orange monkey leader shooting someone in 5th avenue. Impeachment all over. Clear illegal acts but a few loyal followers to pretend nothing wrong.

 

[soulcougher73]

All I have to say about it is I'm tired of hearing how they have all of this proof and evidence. If they do, I wish they would go ahead and put his orange @SS in jail so we can move on and the Dems, Progressives, and Liberals can evict him from their skulls and we can move on.

To quote a famous poster here who's name escapes me:

Crap or get off the pot about Donald Trump.

Are you also tired of all the proof and evidence of the stolen election Mein Pillow etc keep claiming they have but for some reason never release any of?

 

[fskimospy]

Fake electors - probably not, hasn’t been tied to him. Rudy should be indicted tho.

Eastman memo - no, likely not a crime

Draft executive orders - no, not a crime

Georgia phone call - maybe, unlikely to secure a conviction I think.

Promising pardons - no, not a crime

Wanting Pence to accept the alternate electors - no, likely not a crime

Failure to act - no, that’s within the powers of the President and should have led to impeachment but not charges.

Frankly I think these investigations have little to nothing on him, at least of what’s made it public. And, it’s worse to swing and miss. Let’s wait until something solid comes up. Squeeze Rudy till he squeals.

I think the election related stuff is unlikely to stick to him, mostly because we as a society never really thought to implement criminal statutes designed to stop the president from attempting a coup. That being said it does appear Fulton County may indict him anyway.

You left out the most important investigation though, and that’s the financial/tax stuff out of New York. It seems to me like he is in significant danger there. If he’s going to go to prison it will be in New York.

 

[fskimospy]

Look, I think Trump committed a raft of crimes, but charging him requires a reasonable chance of conviction.

I think Trump knew about Rudy and the alternate electors but that’s reasonable suspicion and not reasonable grounds to believe.

Eastman memo and the rest of the election stuff they’re going to argue he believed the election was being stolen and was only making counter plans.

Draft EO, nothing happened, never issued, and Presidents likely cannot be charged for unconstitutional EO’s even if they’re issued and acted on.

GA phone call, his demand was just vague enough to raise doubt.

Pardons, the President can pardon anyone for any reason. Again that‘s an impeachment issue.

I mostly agree, I think the Georgia call is somewhat dangerous to him but not a slam dunk by any means.

As far as pardons go that is not correct. He can pardon anyone he wants, but for example if he offered to pardon someone in exchange for say, $1 million that is very much a crime. It’s similar to how the president can fire any member of the executive branch, but if he fires them to stop an investigation into himself or whatever that is obstruction of justice.

Now we can discuss how likely it is that someone would pursue and achieve a conviction on that but it’s 100% a crime.

 

[Greenman]

When you admit it in public how is it a presumption?

And that's the rub. A lot of people are so wrapped up in Trump hate that it's the only thing they see or hear. You already know beyond any reasonable doubt that Trump is guilty. You enjoy discussion with others that know he's guilty. There is no question of his guilt, other than a trial and conviction.

The reality is that we don't know he's guilty of any crimes. He may never be charged with a crime. He might end up being president again. Your absolute conviction of guilt is absolutely meaningless.

 

[K1052]

Trump usually gets other people to do crimes on his behalf. So no, there isn't a ton of actionable things out there except the GA election stuff and his decades long financial fraud that forms the very core of his business and personal wealth. The latter seems most likely to trip him up.

 

[HomerJS]

And that's the rub. A lot of people are so wrapped up in Trump hate that it's the only thing they see or hear. You already know beyond any reasonable doubt that Trump is guilty. You enjoy discussion with others that know he's guilty. There is no question of his guilt, other than a trial and conviction.

The reality is that we don't know he's guilty of any crimes. He may never be charged with a crime. He might end up being president again. Your absolute conviction of guilt is absolutely meaningless.

Dude, I stipulated up front this is a discussion about

PROBABLE CAUSE

Guilty or not guilty is decided at trial. Please read the standards...
Probable cause - Wikipedia

 

[fskimospy]

And that's the rub. A lot of people are so wrapped up in Trump hate that it's the only thing they see or hear. You already know beyond any reasonable doubt that Trump is guilty. You enjoy discussion with others that know he's guilty. There is no question of his guilt, other than a trial and conviction.

The reality is that we don't know he's guilty of any crimes. He may never be charged with a crime. He might end up being president again. Your absolute conviction of guilt is absolutely meaningless.

So by this logic you would agree that when discussing say, OJ Simpson, we should say we just don’t know if he committed murder. He was acquitted after all and the true killer never found.

 

[kage69]

There is a mountain of evidence against the traitor and he needs his bitchass slapped down with the 14th, along with the rest of Team Treason who helped try and destroy an election. His various crimes before 1/6/21 only add to and underscore it.

 

[Greenman]

So by this logic you would agree that when discussing say, OJ Simpson, we should say we just don’t know if he committed any crimes. He was acquitted after all and the true killer never found.

While I believe OJ murdered two people, he was found "not guilty". I don't like it, I think it was a very bad decision, but I can't prove he did it. Though I would point out that he also wrote a book about how he did it.
In the case of Trump, I keep hearing that he admitted to some of his crimes, so he's guilty. My entire point is, and has always been, he ain't guilty till the jury says so. At this point, he hasn't even been charged with a crime. Even his alleged tax evasion will most likely end with the filing of an amended return and paying a fine.

We can circle around this debate forever, but the bottom line is that without a conviction it doesn't matter what "everyone knows". We can enumerate Trumps crimes, we can site the irrefutable evidence and his admissions of guilt, we can be outraged that this criminal is free to do as he pleases, we're entitled to all of that, but until there is a conviction, it's a zero sum.

 

[fskimospy]

While I believe OJ murdered two people, he was found "not guilty". I don't like it, I think it was a very bad decision, but I can't prove he did it. Though I would point out that he also wrote a book about how he did it.

In the case of Trump, I keep hearing that he admitted to some of his crimes, so he's guilty. My entire point is, and has always been, he ain't guilty till the jury says so. At this point, he hasn't even been charged with a crime. Even his alleged tax evasion will most likely end with the filing of an amended return and paying a fine.

We can circle around this debate forever, but the bottom line is that without a conviction it doesn't matter what "everyone knows". We can enumerate Trumps crimes, we can site the irrefutable evidence and his admissions of guilt, we can be outraged that this criminal is free to do as he pleases, we're entitled to all of that, but until there is a conviction, it's a zero sum.

Okay so in other words we all agree that OJ committed the crime in question but that due to various quirks in our system was not convicted of it.

I think we would all agree that by the OJ standard Trump is in the same boat. Everyone knows he's a criminal, the only question is if we can get the system to punish him for it. Agree?