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POLL: In what situations do you feel "affirmative action" is appropriate?
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My 2 cents on this topic. I do not post much here but I read every day.
Someone mentioned that Obama was the 2nd or 3rd black senator, which is wrong he is the 7th (3rd since Reconstruction).
Before we get started on the minorities that are touched by AA, lets look at the largest group who this affects, White women. I do not feel like google-ing it right now but I know that a recent report says that the glass celing is still in effect. AA helps to break the glass ceiling in the workplace. It tries to make sure that there is a equal playing field between men and women of any color doing the same job get fair pay. If my memory serves me correctly I think the celing averages 75cents to the dollar. Untill this is equal, AA has a place.
Now to the minorities. (Please note that each minority group as a whole are a small percentage of those helped by AA. ) In the workplace a second ceiling has emerged. It is one that is not talked about much. This ceiling comes with proving oneself for all of the people like them. When a white woman was the first the at the Citadel, she was not proving herself but women as a whole. You can try to deny this fact, but when she dropped out I know many people thought that proved women can't make it at the school. AA is designed to protect against that horrible line of thinking. AA is setup to allow someone to prove themselves for what they are worth and not who they know.
AA attacks "good-ole-boy" syndrome. This was addressed with legacy school systems and it can even be seen in hiring practices. If you don't know what this is look it up.
I personaly would like to see the day when we were all considered equal and no one person was considered better than another untill they proved their merit. We could all walk around in jumpsuits and only be looked at like individuals. But this is not the Star-Trek world. A little more than 50 years ago our troops were even seperated in the military by colour. Why are we to believe that we have advanced so much in the 40 years since Jim Crow? Racial tension is still strong in America, it is just so deeply rooted that we cannot see it.
I have started to allow emotion and this migrane into this post so I will stop here.
Someone mentioned that Obama was the 2nd or 3rd black senator, which is wrong he is the 7th (3rd since Reconstruction).
Before we get started on the minorities that are touched by AA, lets look at the largest group who this affects, White women. I do not feel like google-ing it right now but I know that a recent report says that the glass celing is still in effect. AA helps to break the glass ceiling in the workplace. It tries to make sure that there is a equal playing field between men and women of any color doing the same job get fair pay. If my memory serves me correctly I think the celing averages 75cents to the dollar. Untill this is equal, AA has a place.
Now to the minorities. (Please note that each minority group as a whole are a small percentage of those helped by AA. ) In the workplace a second ceiling has emerged. It is one that is not talked about much. This ceiling comes with proving oneself for all of the people like them. When a white woman was the first the at the Citadel, she was not proving herself but women as a whole. You can try to deny this fact, but when she dropped out I know many people thought that proved women can't make it at the school. AA is designed to protect against that horrible line of thinking. AA is setup to allow someone to prove themselves for what they are worth and not who they know.
AA attacks "good-ole-boy" syndrome. This was addressed with legacy school systems and it can even be seen in hiring practices. If you don't know what this is look it up.
I personaly would like to see the day when we were all considered equal and no one person was considered better than another untill they proved their merit. We could all walk around in jumpsuits and only be looked at like individuals. But this is not the Star-Trek world. A little more than 50 years ago our troops were even seperated in the military by colour. Why are we to believe that we have advanced so much in the 40 years since Jim Crow? Racial tension is still strong in America, it is just so deeply rooted that we cannot see it.
I have started to allow emotion and this migrane into this post so I will stop here.
Calls for 'diversity' don't hold up under scrutiny
King, after all, said that individuals should "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." If only his purported followers would listen to his words today.
King, after all, said that individuals should "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." If only his purported followers would listen to his words today.
RabidMongoose
Lifer
I would support it far more for the economically disadvantaged. It makes much more sense this way, but race could have a much much much smaller impact as well.
chowderhead
Platinum Member
For college admisision, I am for affirmative action for hot chicks! 🙂
everyone else is based on merit!
everyone else is based on merit!
sandorski
No Lifer
1) Yes
2) did not vote
3) did not vote
4) No
5) did not vote
6) did not vote
7) Yes--though I'm not entirely sure what a "legacy admission" is. I assumed it meant based on Race, Income, or some such.
Did not vote on some questions as I don't think it's that clearcut. Affirmative Action should be used very sparingly and only to address longheld discrimination, societal convention, or societal isolation. It also should only be used for a length of time required to normalize a Societal/Disadvantaged Group relationship. At some point AA acheives its' initial goal and further use of it in a particular situation becomes counter-productive.
2) did not vote
3) did not vote
4) No
5) did not vote
6) did not vote
7) Yes--though I'm not entirely sure what a "legacy admission" is. I assumed it meant based on Race, Income, or some such.
Did not vote on some questions as I don't think it's that clearcut. Affirmative Action should be used very sparingly and only to address longheld discrimination, societal convention, or societal isolation. It also should only be used for a length of time required to normalize a Societal/Disadvantaged Group relationship. At some point AA acheives its' initial goal and further use of it in a particular situation becomes counter-productive.
As I look back on this poll it's interesting the widest support is for ending financial aid for schools that get government funding (all of them really). Seems like this is something both parties could agree on but I'd imagine a lot of senators have family members they want to help get into Yale or Harvard.
herkulease
Diamond Member
okay this is my take. I think the problem is we don't have the same definition of equality.
think about it. Whenever people say there are problems they cite statistics saying one group has advantage over another. that its there reason its not fair and programs like affirmative action is needed.
If we give everyone the same set of criteria and only those that meet it were accepted? is it fair if the end result there are more whites the blacks, or more males than females?
There will be people saying the results have to be equal. others will saying only the criteria has to be equal/same. I think until we can all agree on what's equal we'll hear about this for a long time.
I'm asian, I have pretty much no advantage anywhere except maybe law schools where they are trying to get more minorities to attend. according to the lsac minorities only make up 7% of lawyers in the US.
think about it. Whenever people say there are problems they cite statistics saying one group has advantage over another. that its there reason its not fair and programs like affirmative action is needed.
If we give everyone the same set of criteria and only those that meet it were accepted? is it fair if the end result there are more whites the blacks, or more males than females?
There will be people saying the results have to be equal. others will saying only the criteria has to be equal/same. I think until we can all agree on what's equal we'll hear about this for a long time.
I'm asian, I have pretty much no advantage anywhere except maybe law schools where they are trying to get more minorities to attend. according to the lsac minorities only make up 7% of lawyers in the US.
sandorski
No Lifer
You bring up a good point. I think this is where AA gets abused and over used. In the case of African-Americans and Women there was a very clearcut bias, at least in certain locales. In those 2 situations AA made a lot of sense as they were excluded based upon quantifiable Bias and Discrimination. Once you begin relying on Statistical Data alone it gets more complex, especially depending on how those Statistics are used.
Notcain uses a statistic, GroupA only makes x% of GroupB, which might indicate a need for AA or it may not. In the case of Women's Wages as a Group, the Data may not differentiate whether Part of the result is caused by Women leaving the Workforce due to Pregnancy(clarification would be usefull) or even whether Women choose not to pursue a Professional(or other Higher Paying job) Career in order to leave things(such as Child rearing) more easier to do. That said, I think the Data mentioned speaks more of an Under-valuation of certain Jobs that Women are more likely to pursue, more than Discrimination, though it's possible that many of these Jobs are Under-valued because of some past Discrimination. I'm not sure if AA really is applicable to this situation though, I think Employee Action such as Unionization or something similar would be more appropriate and successful than AA. AA is more of a Foot-in-the-Door kind of action, giving recipients the opportunity to aspire to a previously closed Career, not really an Action to acheive certain Wages/Benefits.
I think college education should be government funded. I think entrance should be on academic merit, as opposed to the ability to pay. If there is evidence of serious disadvantage in certain communities, then I would prefer to see more spent on schools in those areas (to reduce teacher-student ratios, update equipment, and maybe even to provide healthy breakfasts in seriously disadvantaged areas where kids are malnourished) as opposed to lowering university entrance standards for people from those disadvantaged communities. I do think it is a sign that something is very wrong when you have large numbers of people of a certain race consistently underperforming.
In Australia, a college degree is heavily subsidized by the government. The state pays around 80% or more of the total cost. The remaining fees don't have to be paid up front, you are provided with a no-interest loan, which only has to be repaid once your wages rise above a certain level. The hope is that access to a university education will be more dependent on academic merit or hard work than e.g., having affluent parents.
People need to get over their pity party and take responsibility for themselves.
My question is, "What is diversity?"
To prove diversity you have to track who is a minority.
Minorities are not the only people discriminated in America.
Veterans are discriminated against.
Fat people are discriminated against.
You name it and there is discrimination for a specific group or characteristic. There is no reason why blacks need protection more than other groups. The Japanese Americans were rounded up after world war II but they somehow got over this and did fine. So why can't African Americans do the same thing?
I am just tired of excuses.
It just seems that African Americans cause all of their own problems. They choose to break laws and live in a way which lead people to discriminate against them. African Americans need to take responsibility for their own actions. I think welfare has been a crutch for them. The most important thing to the African American Community needs to be the family and the presence of a responsible man as a father figure. Instead of paying unwed mothers we would be better off paying low income families for staying together.
My question is, "What is diversity?"
To prove diversity you have to track who is a minority.
Minorities are not the only people discriminated in America.
Veterans are discriminated against.
Fat people are discriminated against.
You name it and there is discrimination for a specific group or characteristic. There is no reason why blacks need protection more than other groups. The Japanese Americans were rounded up after world war II but they somehow got over this and did fine. So why can't African Americans do the same thing?
I am just tired of excuses.
It just seems that African Americans cause all of their own problems. They choose to break laws and live in a way which lead people to discriminate against them. African Americans need to take responsibility for their own actions. I think welfare has been a crutch for them. The most important thing to the African American Community needs to be the family and the presence of a responsible man as a father figure. Instead of paying unwed mothers we would be better off paying low income families for staying together.
Zebo
Elite Member
Only people complain about AA are underachivers and looking for someone to scapgoat for thier issues. Whites simply have no excuse.. we run this country and hire our own is prefered and income is sky high and unjustly based simply on luck of whiteness... Fact is AA is not quotas, but guildlines for opportunity and equal representation for all races. Quotas are illegal, unless a company has been sued, lost, and judge orders it.
miketheidiot
Lifer
"affirmative action" for all disadvantaged people.
LOL I just laugh at folks who are just plain ignorant.
AA was a major part of the Civil Rights movement which still continues today. Civil Rights movement, Medgar Evers died fighting for blacks to vote. James Meredith fought to go to the University of Mississippi. Colin Powell wouldn't be where he is today without it. The major advancement of heart surgery was enabled by the work of Vivian Harris, who in turn was allowed to work with a doctor because of civil rights. MLK died fighting for equal rights without using violence. 3 civil rights workers were buried, 2 of them white, trying to get those who had the right to vote, to be able to use that right. AA only hurts those who practice racism, just like a speed limit only hurts those who speed. So for all the whining and complaining, AA has been a good thing. And if your not practicing bias then it affects no one. People bring up the old well they take a less qualified individual, which is false. Never was true and never will be. In the cases of AA when it comes down to 2 inviduals of equal qualifications, typically if AA is being used then the minority will recieve the benefit. AA policys are used by all minority races, despite the overall erroneous belief, and has been a huge help in the advancement of women.
AA was a major part of the Civil Rights movement which still continues today. Civil Rights movement, Medgar Evers died fighting for blacks to vote. James Meredith fought to go to the University of Mississippi. Colin Powell wouldn't be where he is today without it. The major advancement of heart surgery was enabled by the work of Vivian Harris, who in turn was allowed to work with a doctor because of civil rights. MLK died fighting for equal rights without using violence. 3 civil rights workers were buried, 2 of them white, trying to get those who had the right to vote, to be able to use that right. AA only hurts those who practice racism, just like a speed limit only hurts those who speed. So for all the whining and complaining, AA has been a good thing. And if your not practicing bias then it affects no one. People bring up the old well they take a less qualified individual, which is false. Never was true and never will be. In the cases of AA when it comes down to 2 inviduals of equal qualifications, typically if AA is being used then the minority will recieve the benefit. AA policys are used by all minority races, despite the overall erroneous belief, and has been a huge help in the advancement of women.
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