***POLL*** How many more troops will Bush send to Iraq?

[greatwhiteelkhunter]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter

Originally posted by: Thump553
Last rumor I heard was he will announce this Tuesday. I don't think he will wait two weeks. From a political standpoint (which is basically all that matters-he has been stalling so that people forget the bipartisan report, and to get further away from the election) waiting two weeks more will allow the Democratic Congress' 100 hour plan to gain too much public attention and support.

I'm very interested in what the public response will be to his announcement. I'm persnally sick of our troops being the frontline for a Shia government.

Would you rather we let them fail and a new terrorist take over and create even more training camps for what to be terrorists?? Give me a break! I?m on my 3rd tour here in Iraq and believe me you don?t us to leave right now. If we did your kids will be back here in 10 more years! Lest finish this job and help them stabilize and get on their feet.

Uh, and exactly what training camps in Iraq are you talking about??? And what do you mean finish the job? The situation has been getting worse since the end of major combat. So I assume you mean finishing the job of total destruction of Iraqi society? Total failure of its government? Total civil war? Because thats the way things are heading.

He's talking about the training camps that would be created if we left Iraq for the terrorists and insurgents. He said specifically said the other camps he was referring to were in Iraq. BTW, there were training camps in Iraq before the war.

And you have a link to this?

Sure do!

Not that you would believe any of this or the pictures but in fact YES there were terrorist camps here in Iraq. Here is the link and pictures you can look at. I had a friend I was with here on my first tour here and he told me about one he was in. Not alot was said about them for some reason.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp



Saddam's Terror Training Camps
What the documents captured from the former Iraqi regime reveal--and why they should all be made public.
by Stephen F. Hayes
01/16/2006, Volume 011, Issue 17
THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials.
The secret training took place primarily at three camps--in Samarra, Ramadi, and Salman Pak--and was directed by elite Iraqi military units. Interviews by U.S. government interrogators with Iraqi regime officials and military leaders corroborate the documentary evidence. Many of the fighters were drawn from terrorist groups in northern Africa with close ties to al Qaeda, chief among them Algeria's GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Some 2,000 terrorists were trained at these Iraqi camps each year from 1999 to 2002, putting the total number at or above 8,000. Intelligence officials believe that some of these terrorists returned to Iraq and are responsible for attacks against Americans and Iraqis. According to three officials with knowledge of the intelligence on Iraqi training camps, White House and National Security Council officials were briefed on these findings in May 2005; senior Defense Department officials subsequently received the same briefing.
The photographs and documents on Iraqi training camps come from a collection of some 2 million "exploitable items" captured in postwar Iraq and Afghanistan. They include handwritten notes, typed documents, audiotapes, videotapes, compact discs, floppy discs, and computer hard drives. Taken together, this collection could give U.S.

 

[greatwhiteelkhunter]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I wish everyone to note that I have edited my previous post---by adding a copyright Lemon law to my advance history---can I copyright history? and require all subsequent generations
who read what amounts to what will becomes certain history to pay me my copyright fee--even if I hope I am wrong?

But be it resolved---(1) The world had a stable and terrorist free Iraq before GWB&co, tinkered with it. And given what all intelligence services knew at the time--Saddam was
so weakened by Gulf war one that he could not threaten anyone. (2) Any increase in Al-Quida type terrorism in Iraq must be laid squarely at the feet of the GWB administration---before that level was zero---now the risk is real it will spread and greatly increase. (3) We have totally broken any stability in Iraq---and not only are we failing to stabilize it, we have also put ourselves in the middle of a huge number of other mid-east issues---and have greatly magnified the Sunni-Shia split--and the Arab Israeli rift. And without a US troop
commitment of at least 500,000 to 1,000,000 troops---we cannot hope to stabilize Iraq in our own right---so we must both go to the international community and address Islamic type issues we are ill equipped to deal with--and have been demonizing---or be prepared to poney up those 500,000+ troops----anything less will do nothing.

I also note GWB refuses to alter his original goals---and three years late is only slightly changing his tactics-- the only conclusion now is that GWB had goals but no realistic plan to
attain them.-----so either one alters those goals to cut losses---or you find ways to come up with a totally new game plan---since we have neither and will never get either from GWB,
its almost certain other events not to our liking will break the impasse and resolve the issue. Who can be so self-deluded to think the very bumbling idiot who broke it can fix it?

Its time for some radical thinking. Not more of the same plus 10%.---or we will be in exactly the same situation as the brits---who had a 20 year occupation of Iraq after WW1,
and accomplished zero by the time public opinion forced withddrawing them.

Not that you would believe any of this BUT you're FOS! It's not you fault you don't know but here is some truth for you.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp



Saddam's Terror Training Camps
What the documents captured from the former Iraqi regime reveal--and why they should all be made public.
by Stephen F. Hayes
01/16/2006, Volume 011, Issue 17
THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials.
The secret training took place primarily at three camps--in Samarra, Ramadi, and Salman Pak--and was directed by elite Iraqi military units. Interviews by U.S. government interrogators with Iraqi regime officials and military leaders corroborate the documentary evidence. Many of the fighters were drawn from terrorist groups in northern Africa with close ties to al Qaeda, chief among them Algeria's GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Some 2,000 terrorists were trained at these Iraqi camps each year from 1999 to 2002, putting the total number at or above 8,000. Intelligence officials believe that some of these terrorists returned to Iraq and are responsible for attacks against Americans and Iraqis. According to three officials with knowledge of the intelligence on Iraqi training camps, White House and National Security Council officials were briefed on these findings in May 2005; senior Defense Department officials subsequently received the same briefing.
The photographs and documents on Iraqi training camps come from a collection of some 2 million "exploitable items" captured in postwar Iraq and Afghanistan. They include handwritten notes, typed documents, audiotapes, videotapes, compact discs, floppy discs, and computer hard drives. Taken together, this collection could give U.S.

 

[The Green Bean]

Frankly, to have any effect he needs to send 50K+

 

[greatwhiteelkhunter]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter

Originally posted by: Thump553
Last rumor I heard was he will announce this Tuesday. I don't think he will wait two weeks. From a political standpoint (which is basically all that matters-he has been stalling so that people forget the bipartisan report, and to get further away from the election) waiting two weeks more will allow the Democratic Congress' 100 hour plan to gain too much public attention and support.

I'm very interested in what the public response will be to his announcement. I'm persnally sick of our troops being the frontline for a Shia government.

Would you rather we let them fail and a new terrorist take over and create even more training camps for what to be terrorists?? Give me a break! I?m on my 3rd tour here in Iraq and believe me you don?t us to leave right now. If we did your kids will be back here in 10 more years! Lest finish this job and help them stabilize and get on their feet.

And whats your solution? We can't win a war of attrition and theres no way in hell we will be able to solve a religious conflict. Our enemies are highly motivated and continuing to kill them at our current pace will not fix anything. I think to truely stop the insurgency we would need to destroy Iraq on the same scale that we destroyed Japan and Germany in WWII. To defeat the German ideology we did more than just win on the battlefield. We bombed cities and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. We defeated their ideology by destroying their country so bad that surrender was the only viable option. The insurgents in Iraq feel none of this pressure. No threat of starvation and little threat of defeat (remember that they "win" by blowing themselves up).

You just don't get it! They can't win! BUT they can win the PR war via the left wing MSM in our country and draw support for this country away. They are weakening the support to get this job done and so we then turn it over to the Iraqi government. By doing this they win because people will not support finishing the job. We have made great strides here I know you don't see it but we have I see it all the time. I have talked to Iraqi solders in the chow hall and hear what they have to say and it's amazing. They are kind of stupid and they will never be as good as we are but they will be able to handle this place soon. When is soon? I have no idea but in the big picture of things soon could be 2 years.

This is NOT a war of bombs at this point. They want your heart!! And your willing to give it to them and undermine our country in doing.

I know you say BS but in fact that IS the real war taking place on a large scale right now. Your falling for it hook line and sinker and our own media is in fact undermining our country as well.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Frankly, to have any effect he needs to send 50K+

I would agree, it would have to be overwhelming force.

 

[Lemon law]

to greatwhiteelkhunter,

Thank you for the link---but I am underwhelmed after carefully reading it---and also have to ask myself why the full court stall in getting these things released---perhaps much of it won't withstand scruteny--with an administration that regularly is willing to make bogus claims, believe sources like screwball, curve ball, and the ever duplicitous Achmed Chalabi---not to mention the overhyped aluminum tubes---or the ourright lie about the Uranium from Niger.---or all the cherry picked intel when we had alot of information to the contrary.

But even granted the possibility that Saddam did maintain terrorist training camps---which even a police state dictator like Saddam might---it makes surface sense he would isolate these camps from Iraq proper--which would then prevent these camps from becoming a power base that could build to threaten Saddam's rule.---and then these trained fighters would leave Iraq and accomplish mischef that bring discomfort to other powers that oppose the interests of Iraq.----in other words Saddam is acting as a proxy.

Get a clue---greatwhiteelkhunter----lots of nations play these little games---and have played these games since time immemorial---and the good old USA does too---which is exactly what we did in Afghgastan when we trained the mujahadeen when they were trying to expel the Russians---the Russians called them terrorists---we called them freedom fighters---and where the hell do you think a good part of Al-Quida cut their teeth and learned in the field how to be effective terrorists.---and now a new generation is learning how in Iraq.

So you are now telling me its morally right for the USA to do it---but evil when Saddam does it.---and you forget to mention Syria and Iran---who are certainly aiding Hezbollah---while the USA single handedly enables Israel to terrorize the region.---but all in all---I have to guess that Iran is acting with almost extreme restraint not to be a proxy agent in Iraq----because if they wanted to---they could aid the Iraqi insurgents with advanced Iranian weapons---and we would see a prompt escalation of the US death toll to Vietnam sized very rapidly---since that is not happening---I rest my case
there.---and its also remarkable---given the USA used Saddam as a proxy when he started a war with Iran during the 1980's that resulted in millions of Iranians being killed.------nor can I blame Iran for going nuclear--after all, the USA has sent a chilling message to any resource rich nation---that we will occupy you if you are not 100% in favor of our interests and no one can stop our military.

But all in all Iraq sounds earily like Vietnam---including your there is light at the end of the tunnel rethoric---which you may sincerely believe---nor do I doubt your dedication and sincerity---but Iraq is getting steadily worse---and more of the same plus 10% will only slightly slow the getting steadily worse has to be my conclusion. At some point in time---things will just blow up if things don't start getting dramatically better. And to get things better---we are going to have to confront the powerful forces we are playing with in the mid-east---the fact that we are hated now as an agressor does not help---and this ill considered Iraqi occupatuin has just made a bad situation in Iraq infinitely worse.

But oddly enough I do agree with you that just pulling out and leaving is not an option---but GWB just is not putting anything on the table that will provide a political solution---nor can the US military do the job of diplomats. Leaving the US military and dedicated people like yourself in the middle of a big house---trying to put out fires---while a forest fire rages around you---one day the fire will win at the rate this is going.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I wish everyone to note that I have edited my previous post---by adding a copyright Lemon law to my advance history---can I copyright history? and require all subsequent generations
who read what amounts to what will becomes certain history to pay me my copyright fee--even if I hope I am wrong?

But be it resolved---(1) The world had a stable and terrorist free Iraq before GWB&co, tinkered with it. And given what all intelligence services knew at the time--Saddam was
so weakened by Gulf war one that he could not threaten anyone. (2) Any increase in Al-Quida type terrorism in Iraq must be laid squarely at the feet of the GWB administration---before that level was zero---now the risk is real it will spread and greatly increase. (3) We have totally broken any stability in Iraq---and not only are we failing to stabilize it, we have also put ourselves in the middle of a huge number of other mid-east issues---and have greatly magnified the Sunni-Shia split--and the Arab Israeli rift. And without a US troop
commitment of at least 500,000 to 1,000,000 troops---we cannot hope to stabilize Iraq in our own right---so we must both go to the international community and address Islamic type issues we are ill equipped to deal with--and have been demonizing---or be prepared to poney up those 500,000+ troops----anything less will do nothing.

I also note GWB refuses to alter his original goals---and three years late is only slightly changing his tactics-- the only conclusion now is that GWB had goals but no realistic plan to
attain them.-----so either one alters those goals to cut losses---or you find ways to come up with a totally new game plan---since we have neither and will never get either from GWB,
its almost certain other events not to our liking will break the impasse and resolve the issue. Who can be so self-deluded to think the very bumbling idiot who broke it can fix it?

Its time for some radical thinking. Not more of the same plus 10%.---or we will be in exactly the same situation as the brits---who had a 20 year occupation of Iraq after WW1,
and accomplished zero by the time public opinion forced withddrawing them.

Not that you would believe any of this BUT you're FOS! It's not you fault you don't know but here is some truth for you.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp



Saddam's Terror Training Camps
What the documents captured from the former Iraqi regime reveal--and why they should all be made public.
by Stephen F. Hayes
01/16/2006, Volume 011, Issue 17
THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials.
The secret training took place primarily at three camps--in Samarra, Ramadi, and Salman Pak--and was directed by elite Iraqi military units. Interviews by U.S. government interrogators with Iraqi regime officials and military leaders corroborate the documentary evidence. Many of the fighters were drawn from terrorist groups in northern Africa with close ties to al Qaeda, chief among them Algeria's GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Some 2,000 terrorists were trained at these Iraqi camps each year from 1999 to 2002, putting the total number at or above 8,000. Intelligence officials believe that some of these terrorists returned to Iraq and are responsible for attacks against Americans and Iraqis. According to three officials with knowledge of the intelligence on Iraqi training camps, White House and National Security Council officials were briefed on these findings in May 2005; senior Defense Department officials subsequently received the same briefing.
The photographs and documents on Iraqi training camps come from a collection of some 2 million "exploitable items" captured in postwar Iraq and Afghanistan. They include handwritten notes, typed documents, audiotapes, videotapes, compact discs, floppy discs, and computer hard drives. Taken together, this collection could give U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_F._Hayes
Stephen F. Hayes is a columnist for The Weekly Standard, a prominent American right-wing magazine. Hayes has been selected as the official biographer for Vice President Richard Cheney.

LMAO, a real unbiased person, who incidently was selling a book about it.

http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/hayes200406020847.asp

Stephen F. Hayes, a staff writer for The Weekly Standard and former NRO contributor, is author of the new book The Connection: How al Qaeda's Cooperation with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America. On publication day, Tueday, he e-mailed with NRO Editor Kathryn Lopez about his book and the evidence linking the former Iraq regime and al Qaeda........


.......NRO: What is the strongest evidence that Iraq was a collaborator in the Sept. 11 attacks?

Hayes: Probably the Shakir story, which is far from conclusive. But it seems to me that the presence of a suspected Saddam Fedayeen officer at a key 9/11-planning meeting can't be dismissed. There have been additional recent developments in the Atta story reported by Edward Jay Epstein. If those turn out to be true, they would be significant. I'm trying, but as yet have been unable to prove or disprove them.

The story is from June 2, 2004. I guess he's just not trying hard enough.

Old news that's not even relevant at this point.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter

Originally posted by: Thump553
Last rumor I heard was he will announce this Tuesday. I don't think he will wait two weeks. From a political standpoint (which is basically all that matters-he has been stalling so that people forget the bipartisan report, and to get further away from the election) waiting two weeks more will allow the Democratic Congress' 100 hour plan to gain too much public attention and support.

I'm very interested in what the public response will be to his announcement. I'm persnally sick of our troops being the frontline for a Shia government.

Would you rather we let them fail and a new terrorist take over and create even more training camps for what to be terrorists?? Give me a break! I?m on my 3rd tour here in Iraq and believe me you don?t us to leave right now. If we did your kids will be back here in 10 more years! Lest finish this job and help them stabilize and get on their feet.

And whats your solution? We can't win a war of attrition and theres no way in hell we will be able to solve a religious conflict. Our enemies are highly motivated and continuing to kill them at our current pace will not fix anything. I think to truely stop the insurgency we would need to destroy Iraq on the same scale that we destroyed Japan and Germany in WWII. To defeat the German ideology we did more than just win on the battlefield. We bombed cities and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. We defeated their ideology by destroying their country so bad that surrender was the only viable option. The insurgents in Iraq feel none of this pressure. No threat of starvation and little threat of defeat (remember that they "win" by blowing themselves up).

You just don't get it! They can't win! BUT they can win the PR war via the left wing MSM in our country and draw support for this country away. They are weakening the support to get this job done and so we then turn it over to the Iraqi government. By doing this they win because people will not support finishing the job. We have made great strides here I know you don't see it but we have I see it all the time. I have talked to Iraqi solders in the chow hall and hear what they have to say and it's amazing. They are kind of stupid and they will never be as good as we are but they will be able to handle this place soon. When is soon? I have no idea but in the big picture of things soon could be 2 years.

This is NOT a war of bombs at this point. They want your heart!! And your willing to give it to them and undermine our country in doing.

I know you say BS but in fact that IS the real war taking place on a large scale right now. Your falling for it hook line and sinker and our own media is in fact undermining our country as well.

Don't blame the MSM for telling the Truth just because the Truth sucks. It doesn't matter if every non-Iraqi the world over thinks the war is going great and that there's no insurgency, the situation will continue to worsen despite what the rest of the world thinks. AKA, rose coloured glasses only makes things look good, they don't actually do anything concrete.

 

[Lemon law]

It really boils down to my country right or wrong---GWB has chosen to embroil us in a optional war that is not going well.

But its unpatroitic to question it now because now we have to win is now the argument of the day.

Now turn the question around--lets say the German people had become deeply distrustful of Hitler after he gobbled up
Austria--or any of his other stunts before he gobbled up Poland---or even then made it politically impossible after Poland to
to contemplate grabbing more---maybe deposing him at that point---then the broader WW2 never would have happened,
France would not be invaded, the Soviet Union would never have been invaded, its doubtful Japan would have risked bombing
Pearl Harbor, but history shows the German people failed to lift a finger---and paid a horrible price for it.---or we could ask,
what if we had stopped LBJ from widening the Vietnam war---would there be 58,000 names on that wall?---and what did we accomplish by wasting those 58,000 lives.

Somehow we made it through the entire cold war---and the Russians just economically emploded which proved they did not have a good system. Are any crazy enough to think the terrorists can offer anything---terrorists only have appeal when the opposition--namely us is so unrealistic and cartoonish to make themselves something the people hate---and become seen as a roadblock to be removed.

But this Iraq is but terrortorial ambition #1 for GWB&co. Maybe we should learn a lesson from history and cut our losses right now.
And step up to our responsibilities and seek an international political solution that will leave a stable Iraq---but that will not be
possible until GWB is either deposed or forced out of any decision making inputs regarding Iraq.

We stop an international war criminal like GWB now or we will really be in trouble when he widens this war to a point where the whole mid-east blows up.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter

Originally posted by: Thump553
Last rumor I heard was he will announce this Tuesday. I don't think he will wait two weeks. From a political standpoint (which is basically all that matters-he has been stalling so that people forget the bipartisan report, and to get further away from the election) waiting two weeks more will allow the Democratic Congress' 100 hour plan to gain too much public attention and support.

I'm very interested in what the public response will be to his announcement. I'm persnally sick of our troops being the frontline for a Shia government.

Would you rather we let them fail and a new terrorist take over and create even more training camps for what to be terrorists?? Give me a break! I?m on my 3rd tour here in Iraq and believe me you don?t us to leave right now. If we did your kids will be back here in 10 more years! Lest finish this job and help them stabilize and get on their feet.

And whats your solution? We can't win a war of attrition and theres no way in hell we will be able to solve a religious conflict. Our enemies are highly motivated and continuing to kill them at our current pace will not fix anything. I think to truely stop the insurgency we would need to destroy Iraq on the same scale that we destroyed Japan and Germany in WWII. To defeat the German ideology we did more than just win on the battlefield. We bombed cities and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. We defeated their ideology by destroying their country so bad that surrender was the only viable option. The insurgents in Iraq feel none of this pressure. No threat of starvation and little threat of defeat (remember that they "win" by blowing themselves up).

You just don't get it! They can't win! BUT they can win the PR war via the left wing MSM in our country and draw support for this country away. They are weakening the support to get this job done and so we then turn it over to the Iraqi government. By doing this they win because people will not support finishing the job. We have made great strides here I know you don't see it but we have I see it all the time. I have talked to Iraqi solders in the chow hall and hear what they have to say and it's amazing. They are kind of stupid and they will never be as good as we are but they will be able to handle this place soon. When is soon? I have no idea but in the big picture of things soon could be 2 years.

This is NOT a war of bombs at this point. They want your heart!! And your willing to give it to them and undermine our country in doing.

I know you say BS but in fact that IS the real war taking place on a large scale right now. Your falling for it hook line and sinker and our own media is in fact undermining our country as well.

We are fighting an enemy with no borders, no state, and an infinite supply of volunteers. Every insurgent we kill encourages more to join their cause. We cannot win this ideological battle with guns. Can we secure Iraq? Theoretically, however to do so we would literally have to bring the hammer crashing down on its citizens. We would have to remove the very freedom our invasion was meant to promote.

 

[TheRyuu]

Depends on if the Dems stop Bush or not.

In all likelihood, the number of troops will increase for a short time until the Dems start a phased re-deployment.
And I like the Dems idea. And yes, I am a Dem. So what

I hope the re-deployment/withdrawal comes sometime in 2007 and we don't have to wait 5 more fsck'n years.
Clearly "staying the course" isn't working.

 

[Lemon law]

The possible falasy everyone is ignoring is the question of time--the assertion is somewhat correct--the terrorist
cannot win so we have to outwait them--doable if its only in one place---but less doable if you have to outwait them
everywhere. But its a two front war already--Iraq and Afghinistan---the press did not mention that Al-Quida had
operational control of Somalia---but its bad enough playing wack a mole in one country---it could soon be all over
the globe.

But getting back to the time question---while we are debating---there is a huge risk that Iraq will explode into a civil war
that spreads far beyong Iraqi borders---so can we simply outwait them?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter
Let me guess your basing your comments on the media? Of course you are because your not here and can't see. Well let me educate you a little from where the rubber meets the road.
Was in in 03, 04 and 06 getting ready to leave soon. The difference in this place is night and day! Everything from the infrastructure to the peoples attitude toward Americans. Your not going to see anything good on your TV about this place. The media is giving you what they want you to see. I was here for several major incident in 04 The news you got on those incident was APPLING!! I'm sorry but you will not see the truth from our MSM.

Dude, tell us about all of the schools you're building again! Awe. Some.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: greatwhiteelkhunter

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I wish everyone to note that I have edited my previous post---by adding a copyright Lemon law to my advance history---can I copyright history? and require all subsequent generations
who read what amounts to what will becomes certain history to pay me my copyright fee--even if I hope I am wrong?

But be it resolved---(1) The world had a stable and terrorist free Iraq before GWB&co, tinkered with it. And given what all intelligence services knew at the time--Saddam was
so weakened by Gulf war one that he could not threaten anyone. (2) Any increase in Al-Quida type terrorism in Iraq must be laid squarely at the feet of the GWB administration---before that level was zero---now the risk is real it will spread and greatly increase. (3) We have totally broken any stability in Iraq---and not only are we failing to stabilize it, we have also put ourselves in the middle of a huge number of other mid-east issues---and have greatly magnified the Sunni-Shia split--and the Arab Israeli rift. And without a US troop
commitment of at least 500,000 to 1,000,000 troops---we cannot hope to stabilize Iraq in our own right---so we must both go to the international community and address Islamic type issues we are ill equipped to deal with--and have been demonizing---or be prepared to poney up those 500,000+ troops----anything less will do nothing.

I also note GWB refuses to alter his original goals---and three years late is only slightly changing his tactics-- the only conclusion now is that GWB had goals but no realistic plan to
attain them.-----so either one alters those goals to cut losses---or you find ways to come up with a totally new game plan---since we have neither and will never get either from GWB,
its almost certain other events not to our liking will break the impasse and resolve the issue. Who can be so self-deluded to think the very bumbling idiot who broke it can fix it?

Its time for some radical thinking. Not more of the same plus 10%.---or we will be in exactly the same situation as the brits---who had a 20 year occupation of Iraq after WW1,
and accomplished zero by the time public opinion forced withddrawing them.

Not that you would believe any of this BUT you're FOS! It's not you fault you don't know but here is some truth for you.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp



Saddam's Terror Training Camps
What the documents captured from the former Iraqi regime reveal--and why they should all be made public.
by Stephen F. Hayes
01/16/2006, Volume 011, Issue 17
THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials.
The secret training took place primarily at three camps--in Samarra, Ramadi, and Salman Pak--and was directed by elite Iraqi military units. Interviews by U.S. government interrogators with Iraqi regime officials and military leaders corroborate the documentary evidence. Many of the fighters were drawn from terrorist groups in northern Africa with close ties to al Qaeda, chief among them Algeria's GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Some 2,000 terrorists were trained at these Iraqi camps each year from 1999 to 2002, putting the total number at or above 8,000. Intelligence officials believe that some of these terrorists returned to Iraq and are responsible for attacks against Americans and Iraqis. According to three officials with knowledge of the intelligence on Iraqi training camps, White House and National Security Council officials were briefed on these findings in May 2005; senior Defense Department officials subsequently received the same briefing.
The photographs and documents on Iraqi training camps come from a collection of some 2 million "exploitable items" captured in postwar Iraq and Afghanistan. They include handwritten notes, typed documents, audiotapes, videotapes, compact discs, floppy discs, and computer hard drives. Taken together, this collection could give U.S.

HA! I WAS WAITING FOR YOU TO POST THAT NONSENSE! WHO WROTE IT? STEPHEN F. HAYES. WHO IS HE? WIKI:
Stephen F. Hayes is a columnist for The Weekly Standard, a prominent American right-wing magazine. Hayes has been selected as the official biographer for Vice President Richard Cheney

SO THE 9-11 COMMISSION FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF TERRORIST TRAINING CAMPS. COLIN POWELL DID NOT MENTION TERRORIST TRAINING CAMPS IN IRAQ WHEN HE WENT TO THE U.N. TO PUSH THE CASE FOR INVASION (AND IF THERE WERE TERRORIST TRAINING CAMPS THE INVASION WOULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED) AND NOT ONE RELIABLE PERSON CLAIMS THERE WERE TERRORIST TRAINING CAMPS IN IRAQ WHEN WE INVADED AND WE DID NOT FIND ONE TERRORIST CAMP AND WE HAVE BEEN THERE OVER 3 YEARS.

YOU ARE COMPLETELY BLINDED, SIR. YOU HAVE BEEN MISLED. PLEASE DON'T COME HERE AND SPREAD LIES AND PROGANDA.
/PWND