Poll: How do you feel about divided government at this point?

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Generally, what would be your ideal government?

  • Democrats control Congress and the White House

  • Republicans control Congress but Dems have White House

  • Dems control Congress but Republicans have White House

  • Republicans control Congress and the White House

  • I am not American


Results are only viewable after voting.

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
There's an option (or rather, set of options) missing from the poll. How about a congress split among the parties and the white house in dem/repub hands? Personally I'd like to see the Senate be strongly republican, the house be strongly democrat, and the white house be in the hands of a centrist (moderate) dem or repub.

That way, they'd be forced to work together to pass legislation, or nothing would pass, which would be good for all of us (most of the time) anyway.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,387
12,526
136
Repub congress, Dem white house. Just like the good old days of Clinton.

Not even close. Things have gotten so completely polarized thanks to a certain media outlet that it will be absolute gridlock. Nothing will get done.

Welcome to the days of Coolidge.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Not even close. Things have gotten so completely polarized thanks to a certain media outlet that it will be absolute gridlock. Nothing will get done.

Welcome to the days of Coolidge.

It's funny how the partisans are the ones saying it can't work. That's why us moderates like it. Each of you balances the opposite side out in a gridlock.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,387
12,526
136
It's funny how the partisans are the ones saying it can't work. That's why us moderates like it. Each of you balances the opposite side out in a gridlock.

What a wonderful way to run a country that desperately needs solutions and actions. Maybe I should just dress up as Nero and sit on my back deck with a fiddle.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
What a wonderful way to run a country that desperately needs solutions and actions. Maybe I should just dress up as Nero and sit on my back deck with a fiddle.

Sure, the country might need solutions and actions, but both the left and right side partisans have shown us enough that we know we don't want their "solutions" or actions. No thanks, I'd rather have nothing than bad solutions from either side. Gridlock = good.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Sure, the country might need solutions and actions, but both the left and right side partisans have shown us enough that we know we don't want their "solutions" or actions. No thanks, I'd rather have nothing than bad solutions from either side. Gridlock = good.

+1

Our founders designed this country for incremental change. So those of you who are looking for emotionally driven hope and quicker change, feel free to move to Europe.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Not even close. Things have gotten so completely polarized thanks to a certain media outlet that it will be absolute gridlock. Nothing will get done.

Welcome to the days of Coolidge.

Isnt that the point? Gridlock means the govt isnt increasing taxes or spending, but instead bickering amonst itself.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
+1

Our founders designed this country for incremental change. So those of you who are looking for emotionally driven hope and quicker change, feel free to move to Europe.

Yes, let's take several decades changing our deficit spending to zero; maybe a couple decades at least to gradually do anything about the corporate corruption of politics.

Gays have waited centuries for the right to marry, no rush there. The drug war has gone on for a century, don't want any sudden moves on marijuana.

We've had large military presence on several hundred military bases globally, don't want to rush any reductions.

We've spent 30 years deregulating finance and redistributing wealth to the top, so it'll need a long time to make any corrections.

Liking gridlock isn't just fearing the policies you don't like, it's giving up on democracy altogether to stay in terror rather than fix democracy to do what it was intended.

A government that does nothing does nothing for the people, either, and that plays into the hands of the special interests who have interests at odds with the public.

We've had 30 years of going down the wrong road mostly. We don't need gridlock.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
I don't want either major party in any part of our government anymore.

You might as well have seats for stock tickers instead of states.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Yes, let's take several decades changing our deficit spending to zero; maybe a couple decades at least to gradually do anything about the corporate corruption of politics.

Gays have waited centuries for the right to marry, no rush there. The drug war has gone on for a century, don't want any sudden moves on marijuana.

We've had large military presence on several hundred military bases globally, don't want to rush any reductions.

We've spent 30 years deregulating finance and redistributing wealth to the top, so it'll need a long time to make any corrections.

Liking gridlock isn't just fearing the policies you don't like, it's giving up on democracy altogether to stay in terror rather than fix democracy to do what it was intended.

A government that does nothing does nothing for the people, either, and that plays into the hands of the special interests who have interests at odds with the public.

We've had 30 years of going down the wrong road mostly. We don't need gridlock.

Sorry Craig...but I disagree. Both parties have proven time and again that they cannot govern when in full control of all branches of government. Rather, the fringe elements of both parties take over in these cases and push their radical left and right agendas down our throats. Never again will I support full control of our govt just because there is an R in front of their name. And I sure as shit didn't nor will I ever support full control by the "D" students in office now.

Divided, they are forced to work together, and the 'winner take all' mentality of the fringe elements is marginalized. But if not, they get nothing done and do us less harm in the process. Because right now, every day that these ass-clowns in govt meet, we seem to lose a little more of our liberty and our money.

A political ass kicking is coming to Washington this November...see you there.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Sorry Craig...but I disagree. Both parties have proven time and again that they cannot govern when in full control of all branches of government.

Sorry, but IMO the facts disagree with you. There's some opinion, too, though.

I think your post fits what I said about 'fearing bad government to the point you don't know what government is supposed to do' to a tee to the point you aren't hearing it.

Look factually at what government has done, and you find most good things have come when Dems had a supermajority or at least controlled all branches.

That's where the opinion part comes in - whether you think things like the civil rights act, like Social Security and Medicare, and other such programs are 'good'.

But during 'gridlock' times, we've had much worse government. It seems the only things that can be agreed to in 'gridlock' are more 'bad' policies, like fighting for big donor backing.

Make a list of the ten best things government has done in the last century, and check what the party control of government was.

If you are going to respond 'you can't name 10 good things', then we disagree too much to have any discussion.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Make a list of the ten best things government has done in the last century, and check what the party control of government was.

If you are going to respond 'you can't name 10 good things', then we disagree too much to have any discussion.

Honestly, I'm not sure I can get to 10. So I guess that's it then.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
The voting population in this country today is quite a bit different than it was in the 90's. Extremists suck up all the oxygen in the room and get all of the attention, which adds energy to the pendulum's swing. This makes the extremes more extreme and enlarges the associated costs.

I'm not sure divided government is possible, at this point. The egos of the big players in this game will not allow it. The Rush Limbaughs, Ann Coulters, Keith Olbermanns, and Rachel Maddows of this country today.. in every medium.. would be out of business in a divided government tomorrow.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Honestly, I'm not sure I can get to 10. So I guess that's it then.

This is something to think about for you, though. Our founding fathers made a government pretty much unique in the world not in the hands of a few, but with the public allowed to choose its leaders and do things in their name. In the last century, the government has done many, many things, thousands you could choose from 'in the people's name'.

The fact you can't think of 10 you think are good, is a statement that you really think the whole theory of democracy as a form of government is a disaster.

'Do nothing' isn't a successful government, nor is it the plan for democracy, nor is it even what I think you would say is the case, you would say a lot of bad things, not nothing.

So, why do you love democracy, why would you sign up for the patriotic slogans about the noble people who give their lives to defend democracy, the slogans about how American wants to 'be a shining light for the world' to set an example for others to follow with democracy, when you can't name 10 things the democracy has done that are good in the last century?

How hard would you fight against losing our democracy - and why fight at all? You clearly don't value it.

A one liner about 'better than the others' would not address the issue that you can't find 10 good things democracy has done as a government representitive of the public.

And I don't think that's because they're not there - I named a few, but take anything from the 50 years of FDR-started things like financial regulation that gave us steady growth without major financial crises for the first time in our history, the FDA, the endangered species act, the development of the backbone of the internet, the Freedom of Information Act, and much more.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,355
1,868
126
I don't think anything that involves Democrats or Republicans is a solution.
We need to evict ALL the democrats and republicans and get some new blood in Washington. Get rid of the corruption and scum sucking corporate whoring of the government.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The voting population in this country today is quite a bit different than it was in the 90's. Extremists suck up all the oxygen in the room and get all of the attention, which adds energy to the pendulum's swing. This makes the extremes more extreme and enlarges the associated costs.

I'm not sure divided government is possible, at this point. The egos of the big players in this game will not allow it. The Rush Limbaughs, Ann Coulters, Keith Olbermanns, and Rachel Maddows of this country today.. in every medium.. would be out of business in a divided government tomorrow.

Except Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow are not 'extremists' by any means. It takes a simpleton to equate them to Limbaugh and Coulter.

If you let the radicals define the 'middle' as a 'radical side', you let them win at misrepresenting the facts.

What's next, those who say Muslims are not an 'extremist cult' are one side of the radicals, and those who say they all want to nuke the world are the other side of radicals, while the truth is that their religion is clearly inferior, and nearly all of them hate America and freedom, but would not nuke the world?

Where are your FACTS to support your attack against Olbermann or Maddow? They each had hour long shows the last week - show 3 'radical' things from their shows.

You can't. So will you admit you lack the evidence for your biased opinion, or will you just spew it over and over without any evidence?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I don't think it's divided.

There are small divisions within the parties but the body represents corps an elite.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
So, why do you love democracy, why would you sign up for the patriotic slogans about the noble people who give their lives to defend democracy, the slogans about how American wants to 'be a shining light for the world' to set an example for others to follow with democracy, when you can't name 10 things the democracy has done that are good in the last century?

How hard would you fight against losing our democracy - and why fight at all? You clearly don't value it.

The honest answer is that I love this country for the freedom it provides me...to become a success or failure based on my own motivation, drive, innovation, and yes luck too. When I was younger, I rarely thought about the impact of government. I'm lucky I read the paper once a week in college. Couldn't have cared less. It wasn't until I saw how much in taxes was subtracted from my paycheck that I started to really care...how much it costs to live that I appreciated what my parents provided for me all those years...and how much rhetoric rarely matches deed in peoples' everyday lives, that I really started to give a shit about politics. Basically, I was your typical clueless young adult until I turned about 24 or so.

And since I have spent my entire career so far on Wall St and in NYC to boot, I have seen the worst in people, and some incredibly smart people act really poorly and unkind. So I am cynical Craig. Really, really cynical...about nearly everything. And when I see people in govt doing the spivvy things I see on Wall St, it only reinforces my view that I can't fully trust people, or my government to do the right thing. So no, I don't believe in hope and change, because that idealism died in me when I saw the world for how it really was. All life has done is reinforce how truly alone we are to sink and swim based on our own abilities. I won't take advantage of others to get ahead, but I will try to run as fast I can in my own lane. I would expect nothing less of you either.

/rant
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I don't think anything that involves Democrats or Republicans is a solution.
We need to evict ALL the democrats and republicans and get some new blood in Washington. Get rid of the corruption and scum sucking corporate whoring of the government.

If you can't fix the Democrat and Republicans, you are in no position to put something better in place. You would simply throw out the good and bad and put in worse.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The honest answer is that I love this country for the freedom it provides me...to become a success or failure based on my own motivation, drive, innovation, and yes luck too. When I was younger, I rarely thought about the impact of government. I'm lucky I read the paper once a week in college. Couldn't have cared less. It wasn't until I saw how much in taxes was subtracted from my paycheck that I started to really care...how much it costs to live that I appreciated what my parents provided for me all those years...and how much rhetoric rarely matches deed in peoples' everyday lives, that I really started to give a shit about politics. Basically, I was your typical clueless young adult until I turned about 24 or so.

And since I have spent my entire career so far on Wall St and in NYC to boot, I have seen the worst in people, and some incredibly smart people act really poorly and unkind. So I am cynical Craig. Really, really cynical...about nearly everything. And when I see people in govt doing the spivvy things I see on Wall St, it only reinforces my view that I can't fully trust people, or my government to do the right thing. So no, I don't believe in hope and change, because that idealism died in me when I saw the world for how it really was. All life has done is reinforce how truly alone we are to sink and swim based on our own abilities. I won't take advantage of others to get ahead, but I will try to run as fast I can in my own lane. I would expect nothing less of you either.

/rant

Well, that's a good example of the danger and harm that corruption, bad government, creates with cynicism. (It also seems particularly strong in NYC).

One of the problems with it is that it traps you in bad government - partly because you don't know what 'good government' is. You only see 'more or less bad government'.

Sadly, I'm not just saying 'you're wrong'. While I better appreciate the good that can come from democracy and good government, I see how often democracy fails, the rise of the harmful movements and the corruption from top to bottom that often happens, and it raises real questions whether democracy is viable - but what's the alternative, and there is a moral basis for defending people's right to democracy even if they choose terribly (the harm they do to OTHERS who don't get to vote is another issue).

This is one reason why I encourage people to read more positive things - why my sig has long since given up the space for more fun quotes to push people to read good content.

Because democracy can be a wasteland without that and useless. It's my view that we have it a lot better than we appreciate, because of democracy - but since people don't appreciate that they are quick to throw it away, not appreciating the dangers that lurk nearby ready to replace it.

It's been noted that historically, the 'great societies' tend to represent political ideals that are better respected and practised by others than they are by the 'great nation'. It was true for Rome, it was true for England, it's true for us. Some countries have FAR higher voter turnout than we do, for example. Think of a Latin American nation with a corrupt plutocracy who own everything, and most very poor peasants - who face the violent repression from the government againt any organizing to improve things.

Those people appreciate the idea of democracy. They fight for it.

I suspect you do not have the same appreciation I do for the potential tyranny from the private side, not only from the government. So when you champion freedom for the people, you need to include freedom protected from concentrated private power - not just the government. And the government, when it works, provides that protection.

I'm concerned that the sort of cynicism you talk about could be a disease that threatens our society, our democracy, to the point that no one understands what 'good government' can be. I've ready how when the USSR fell, leaders went to learn the very basic ideas of capitalism because they had no idea how it worked; their debates took place in a vacuum or ignorance, and we run the same risk of ours taking place between only 'Bush' and 'gridlock', take your pick, with no 'good government' people know about.

This is where history can be very useful, learning how democracy has created more freedom for many people, when it's worked - with people shedding blood for progress.

You often hear certain quotes from people trying to explain this - the one about 'a few people can be a force to create great progress - indeed, nothing else ever has', or Robert quoting someone else, saying 'Some men see things as they are and ask, why? I dream of how things could be ans ask, why not?' This is the source of human progress from the time of our founding fathers saying 'why not' to the idea of the peasants getting a vote to the current time of people saying why not change public opinion on gay marriage equality?

I hesitate to pick one thing for you to read to try to help with this, not wanting to waste it if you are willing; but Ted Sorensen's history of the Kennedy presidency are useful, I'd suggest first "Kennedy" and then "Counsel" as a two-part project showing something of what government can be - and I say this aware of the bad of even Kennedy's administration, doing both good and bad. Another book might be Howard Zinn's "People's history of the united states", or his "Declarations of Independence".

It's scary to some of us to see that the lack of good leadership for decades has created the cynicism you describe - and seeing the Wall Street Bailouts would not help. It's understandable, your cynicism - in fact, the positive is that you are even aware that it is cynicism, rather than not understanding that, as I suspect is the case with many. You don't know you're a cynic if you aren't somewhat aware of other options.

Save234
 
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Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
LOL @ Craig, you're always amusing. Olberman and Maddow not radical... bwahahaha. They are the left equivalent of the right wing lunatic fringe, except not smart enough to be as successful. They all suck. Gridlock is the only solution when there are only two parties to choose from and they both suck and have been overtaken by the nutty elements within the party.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,184
10,477
136
They all suck. Gridlock is the only solution when there are only two parties to choose from and they both suck and have been overtaken by the nutty elements within the party.

Is that because the extremes are in safer districts, and thus get seniority and power to control their party? Think of all the swing states / districts and how many 30+ year incumbents are sitting pretty in those. Not many, as the pendulum's swing clears them out.

Damn... I just made an argument for term limits...:|
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
When you are stuck in deep sh!t, gridlock is the best, so you can be stuck in it longer. Gives you time to take in the smell. Gridlock is doing wonders for Cali government.