[POLL] EPIC SHOOTOUT MATCH!!!! AS5 vs NT-H1 on Thermalright Ultra-120 vs. EVGA ACX!!!

[soccerballtux]

UPDATE::: we are GO for launch. T MINUS 20h AND COUNTING.... Check back at 0-twenty-hundred hours EST TOMORROW for the results.

I have the Thermalright Ultra-120 Non-extreme, and just purchased the EVGA ACX 120mm. I also purchased some NT-H1 and some ICD7.

Would you like to see a test comparing the Ultra-120 non-extreme to the EVGA ACX, using the same 133CFM fan and AS5 against the NT-H1?

I don't want to test the ICD7 as I have good reason to believe the NT-H1 will be better.

Please vote, if there is enough support I suppose I would be motivated to not be lazy and choose to serve over being served. It's important that I understand how badly people want to see it. It would be easier for me to just install it and dust my hands and move on.

Also, if anyone knows a piece of software that can log CPU temperature and make a nice graph out of it, I'm forgetting the name of the tool but I know that there is one, that would be easier than plugging values into Excel myself.

Me: I voted 'meh'

 

[soccerballtux]

bump acx arrived today

 

[Geforce man]

I'd be incredibly interested to see if the ACX warranted the 50$ that it cost over your TR120EX. I would imagine the money could have been better spent somewhere else in the PC, but hey, who am I to judge. If I recall correctly, the TR120's were great coolers.

I personally use NTH1 on CPU's, and AS Ceramique on both video cards, and secondary box CPUs (ones that I will most likely never ever replace ever, or even take the HSF off). the NTH1 on my 2700k has been on there for ~1 year or so? No degradation of cooling performance at all. I support it!.

 

[ClockHound]

bump acx arrived today

Very curious to hear how your hearing feels after that ACX fan spins into the near server-room class 2500+ rpm range of pain.

I haven't found a single fan from any of the premium vendors, Noctua, Nidec etc that I can tolerate long-term in a case a few feet away from my ears when it spins above 1500rpm.

Also curious to see how the ACX works with a fan in the more humane range of 1100-1450rpm. Maybe compare using the TR fan?

And, I'm curious about the TIM shootout too. Or swap out. Or side by side comparo. You need a more catchy title. Maybe more memorable too. ;-)

Keep us posted!

 

[soccerballtux]

I'd be incredibly interested to see if the ACX warranted the 50$ that it cost over your TR120EX. I would imagine the money could have been better spent somewhere else in the PC, but hey, who am I to judge. If I recall correctly, the TR120's were great coolers.

I personally use NTH1 on CPU's, and AS Ceramique on both video cards, and secondary box CPUs (ones that I will most likely never ever replace ever, or even take the HSF off). the NTH1 on my 2700k has been on there for ~1 year or so? No degradation of cooling performance at all. I support it!.

I have the non-extreme edition. Ultra-120, not Ultra-120 Extreme (which is 6C better than the Ultra-120 at 3.9ghz)

Personally? I'm skeptical that a cooler change from what otherwise seems to be a fine design could be 6 whole Celsius cooler

 

[soccerballtux]

Very curious to hear how your hearing feels after that ACX fan spins into the near server-room class 2500+ rpm range of pain.

I haven't found a single fan from any of the premium vendors, Noctua, Nidec etc that I can tolerate long-term in a case a few feet away from my ears when it spins above 1500rpm.

Also curious to see how the ACX works with a fan in the more humane range of 1100-1450rpm. Maybe compare using the TR fan?

And, I'm curious about the TIM shootout too. Or swap out. Or side by side comparo. You need a more catchy title. Maybe more memorable too. ;-)

Keep us posted!

it can't possibly be worse than my 3000RPM 120x38mm server fan???

I like to keep it at 45% (hm, that's 1350rpm...). Having to go higher for the 4.6ghz in my sig is the main reason I wanted to upgrade.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

It'll be interesting, I grant you that!

I never made my comparisons with my old TRUE 120. It seemed to me that TRUE didn't keep up with NH-D14. I can only say I'm satisfied with my own test in equivalent test-beds to prove the ACX cooler 6C more effective than the D14.

I ALSO used a PWM AP-30 as exhaust-fan/puller for both systems, coolers and tests. The AP-30 is nominally rated at 117 CFM, but an independent test -- a web-site familiar to many of us (I can't remember it) -- showed ~144 CFM.

Top end on the AP-30 is 4,200 RPM. My fan profiles are configured so it only spins up to ~ 3,500 RPM at most. After that, I couldn't get more temperature reduction from either system with higher RPMs and therefore more noise.

I won't comment on noise, because I've made plenty of assertions about iPPC 3,000 and AP-30 in context of thermal fan control and how the fans behave in the lower 2/3 of their range.

 

[ClockHound]

it can't possibly be worse than my 3000RPM 120x38mm server fan???

I like to keep it at 45% (hm, that's 1350rpm...). Having to go higher for the 4.6ghz in my sig is the main reason I wanted to upgrade.

Never mind then, you've already been infected with the BonzaiDuck's high speed fever, which on the bright side, does diminish sensitivity to pain over time. ;-)

If the ACX doesn't deliver the temps hoped for with the 8310, could try the Silverstone HE01 which performs much better on AMD platforms than Intel's space heaters. Or throw all aural sanity into the stupidly fast moving air and go for a TR IB-E Extreme. 2X 2500rpm 140mm fans at 61dB! ;-)

 

[soccerballtux]

ugh. no more upgrades...

 

[BonzaiDuck]

ugh. no more upgrades...

HEADS UP TO SOCCERBALLTUX:

Please review the discussion I started at Cases & Cooling about EVGA ACX and Indigo Xtreme or IX XS.

You're testing two coolers and two TIMs. You run the risk of botching the tests on one cooler if there's any uncertainty that the IX reaches reflow temperature UNIFORMLY across the HSF base.

Never mind then, you've already been infected with the BonzaiDuck's high speed fever, which on the bright side, does diminish sensitivity to pain over time. ;-)

A lot of folks move to water-cooling with an idea to dispel the noise nuisance, and expect a bounty of cooling to follow with it. I may join them sometime in the next year. What may be missed, overlooked, or discounted: water-cooling needs airflow the way air-cooling with heatpipes needs airflow.

Thus, we have many with AiO coolers who choose to replace the fans.

Meanwhile, I've come to a new understanding of the issue.

Folks assume that reducing airflow and fan RPMs evident at time of stress-testing will reduce noise during normal operation. We assume that mitigating the worst case of stress-testing is the primary goal, and it's easy to succumb to that confusion.

I can effectively attenuate any motor-noise of a beefy fan with some acoustic modifications to the ducts I'd use otherwise to get better cooling "without the beef." But it doesn't matter, since that noise is only going to occur during stress-testing.

Imagine a two-story house, maybe 80 years old, built somewhere susceptible to the occasional winter storm and howling wind. The house may be so well built, that the noise in the rafters can just be heard -- and offers no distraction from enjoying comfort-food at the dining table. My "acoustic mods" bring the computer closer to that on the noise spectrum during stress-tests.

But it doesn't matter. I've encountered at least one SETI@Home enthusiast who explained that the program can be adjusted to run continuously without pushing CPU temperatures above 55 to 65C. Since this is a temperature level that better defines "real-world" usage, note that it is also achievable with even beefy fans operating in the lower half of their full RPM range.

On the "cooler obsession," it's all a matter of thermal resistance and thermal conductivity, and it could be said no less for TIMs. Cross-referencing at least two or three reliable review sources with consistent test-beds and accurate measurement, you can always rank-order all the coolers by dependable performance measures.

It can be a "matter of opinion" without looking further, but oft-times the information is available to dispel mere opinion.

I'd still like to find a heatpipe cooler which actually outranks the ACX, with same "more-compact-than-D14" profile and a more uniform design. But when someone suggests another one and I consult some reviews, it's yet to prove out.

Sooner or later, somebody will come up with a cooler strategy using better materials or a different liquid sealed in the pipes.

 

[soccerballtux]

I'll keep that in mind.

I might have screwed up AS5 application. In fact, I will retest the TR120 solely for this purpose.

as it stands right now, NT-H1 is looking ~10C better than AS5 on the same cooler. In other words, I didn't even need to upgrade my CPU cooler. lol. I thought it might could be the ambient temps but come to think of it, I had endless issues at 4.6ghz no matter what I did.

Here's how much AS5 I had:

You might think that's too much, I've personally never had problems with 'a bit too much AS5'. I've always been using AS5 for 10 years now and have grown accustomed to how well it performs with my TR120-- was always independent of how much I'd applied-- one rice bead, two rice beads, three, etc. For reference, this NT-H1 I put about 2-3 rice beads worth. So I'll re-test, but I don't think it's going to do much.

 

[soccerballtux]

well rats I guess I'm a total n00b when it comes to AS5 application, back in the game. Again, looks like I didn't need to upgrade cooler. feh! explains why people were beating my overclock temperatures!!!!
oh well.

I should probably delete this to save my idium

at the wall, system is 400w at 4.6ghz. 300w at 4.3ghz

now with that said, guess what I'll be shooting for next in my overclock ...

 

[soccerballtux]

no, that wasn't it either.

ok, problem #2, the 65-66C I was getting in Prime95 at 480k calculation I was not paying attention, in-place FFTs-- that's another 20w, putting me at 430w at the wall

that's what made half the difference.

the other half looks like it was too much AS5. 65C vs 60C.

edit: ok, it's really hard to get just the right amount of thermal paste, either that or Prime95 custom runs different prime numbers or settings on subsequent runs.

One of these two makes as much as 5-6C difference.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You have to let the AS5 cure for so many hours running before it's at maximum effectiveness.

Also, I'd save the Indigo Xtreme tests for last, in case you screw the pooch and it doesn't flow properly.

With heatpipe mounting pressure, "too much" shouldn't matter: it will ooze out the sides and drool on the lip of the processor cap. [Same with ICD.]

With the ICD, find a rectangular razor blade -- second-best, an old credit card without a fraying laminate. Put a pea-size chunk of ICD in the middle of the IHS and spread outward in four directions. If you have a second razor-blade or a clean screwdriver, you can clean off the razor-blade, drop the excess on the IHS, and keep spreading until you get an overall uniform coat with no tearing. Stuff is like thick pavement cement; it takes a little patience.

On my end, I have the Indigo Xtreme "kit" arriving sometime next week. I am still ruminating about how to proceed so that it heats up properly and flows like it should. This trouble about temperature and flow is enough to make one walk away from a perfectly-good ICD installation and just leave it alone. We shall . . . endeavor . . . to persevere . . .

 

[BonzaiDuck]

. . . .
Also, if anyone knows a piece of software that can log CPU temperature and make a nice graph out of it, I'm forgetting the name of the tool but I know that there is one, that would be easier than plugging values into Excel myself. . . .

HWMonitor and probably something like AIDA64 -- also the old standby programs RealTemp and CoreTemp -- have a logging and recording feature. The data is saved in a fixed-line-length, delimited text format.

You should simply be able to load it into an excel spreadsheet, spruce up the columnar format, run your statistics into cells with formulas, and make graphs in the usual way.

 

[soccerballtux]

You have to let the AS5 cure for so many hours running before it's at maximum effectiveness.

Also, I'd save the Indigo Xtreme tests for last, in case you screw the pooch and it doesn't flow properly.

With heatpipe mounting pressure, "too much" shouldn't matter: it will ooze out the sides and drool on the lip of the processor cap. [Same with ICD.]

With the ICD, find a rectangular razor blade -- second-best, an old credit card without a fraying laminate. Put a pea-size chunk of ICD in the middle of the IHS and spread outward in four directions. If you have a second razor-blade or a clean screwdriver, you can clean off the razor-blade, drop the excess on the IHS, and keep spreading until you get an overall uniform coat with no tearing. Stuff is like thick pavement cement; it takes a little patience.

On my end, I have the Indigo Xtreme "kit" arriving sometime next week. I am still ruminating about how to proceed so that it heats up properly and flows like it should. This trouble about temperature and flow is enough to make one walk away from a perfectly-good ICD installation and just leave it alone. We shall . . . endeavor . . . to persevere . . .

unfortunately I will not be testing IX or ICD any time soon.

the AS5 definitely didn't squish out from that first go, although you certainly would think it would. or need a few hours of time to set.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Just some thoughts.

The TIM -- comparing these four of IX, ICD and NT-H1 and AS5 may vary as much as 5C degrees in performance. The difference in degrees might change if the thermal wattage is more or less. So it is important to control thermal wattage in the tests. One could also assure that VCORE is the same, but either measure can be controlled, and thermal wattage ("package [power/wattage]" in certain monitoring software such as HWMonitor by CPUID). However, with thermal wattage, you could compare configurations which might vary in VCORE and clock speed. The reported power usage in watts is probably the best measure for thermal equivalence.

This is probably apparent from a comprehensive review source, for instance, the Frosty Tech TRUE-cooler review with comprehensive comparison. Unfortunately, more recent coolers such as the dual and single-tower Noctuas aren't included as far as I can see:

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2244&page=5

Thus, the logic that applies to comparing a 150W test to an 85W test for load temperature increase over idle or ambient, would also apply to expected improvements from rank-ordered TIMs.

There has been an issue as to whether it is more appropriate to compare idle temperatures or ambient values to load temperatures. Ambient is probably the better choice, since thermal sensors in the idle range don't prove as accurate or reliable. Ultimately, though, it shouldn't matter in the rank-ordering of cooler performance.

For thermal wattage, temperature profiles for one type of CPU (my Sandy Bridge, for instance) will vary from another (like Devils Canyon) because die-size has a scaled and predictable affect on heat transfer and even a chip with lower TDP (DC is ~90W) may show higher temperatures for the same or lower thermal wattage than a chip with bigger surface area, like my Sandy Bridge.

One would think that Centigrade differences between two coolers on a chip producing lower thermal wattage would be greater than for chips producing much higher wattage, even as the temperatures are much higher than one would expect for an earlier-gen chip with larger die-size. For instance, my testing for the Sandy Bridge rigs shows a load value for package wattage at ~ 134W; I seem to match the Hardware Secrets review showing a 6C difference between NH-D14 and EVGA ACX, where my tests show something closer to 5C. But one would have to compare the test wattage to the review, and the difference would likely account for these variations.

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2244&page=5

HW Secrets used a skt-1156 i7-860 with stock TDP of 95W, OC'd from 2.8 to 3.3 Ghz -- which is, as they also acknowledge, a modest overclock. The i7-860 also has a 32nm lithography like the Sandy Bridge. But my Sandy Bridge is "likely" clocked to a higher thermal wattage, or HW Secrets' test-bed had load thermal wattage somewhat less than mine.

So it will be interesting to see the difference between a TRUE cooler and the ACX (aka Superclock), but if the test-bed involves a different processor or different CPU manufacture, different TDP and different lithography, the absolute improvement in Celsius might be different than what arises with a different test-bed.

 

[DrMrLordX]

All I can say is, stay the course and be persistent. You'll get your application methods squared away and you'll be producing optimal results with both TIMs and both HSFs in no time.

ACX + NH-T1 should be a good improvement. Good on you for using the same fan on both. If you don't mind me asking, what're the manufacturer and part ID for the fan? You might get better performance and less noise stepping down from the 133 cfm fan to a pair of 100 cfm fans in push/pull.

 

[soccerballtux]

All I can say is, stay the course and be persistent. You'll get your application methods squared away and you'll be producing optimal results with both TIMs and both HSFs in no time.

ACX + NH-T1 should be a good improvement. Good on you for using the same fan on both. If you don't mind me asking, what're the manufacturer and part ID for the fan? You might get better performance and less noise stepping down from the 133 cfm fan to a pair of 100 cfm fans in push/pull.

see first post for fan MPN

so this ACX, due to having a rough grain/being unlapped, requires a good bit more thermal compound, and prefers to only spread /with/ the grain of the cut of the metal, not so much against it. I got used to applying a 1.5-2 rice beads as I completed the AS5 / TR120 testing, and here's what that got me on the ACX!--

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I've seen over years various descriptions of how to apply TIMs.

I might have guessed long ago that just dropping a pea-size blob on the IHS would spread in a pattern that might not always cover it.

I've always taken the pains to spread TIM of any kind all over the IHS with a razor-blade or credit-card.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Ah, the mighty Ultra Kaze. Good price on a pretty good fan. I think you can do better static pressure wise, but for the cfm it's hard to beat em. Not sure how my Nidec Servo fan stacks up but whatever.

You're going to need a different application method for HDT coolers. I believe that most HDT coolers benefit from the paste being applied in lines (usually short lines) along the aluminum bits separating the copper heatpipes.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Ah, the mighty Ultra Kaze. Good price on a pretty good fan. I think you can do better static pressure wise, but for the cfm it's hard to beat em. Not sure how my Nidec Servo fan stacks up but whatever.

You're going to need a different application method for HDT coolers. I believe that most HDT coolers benefit from the paste being applied in lines (usually short lines) along the aluminum bits separating the copper heatpipes.

That may be true. But some of the direct-touch coolers like the Hyper 212 have definite gaps between the pipes: there is no continuous surface among them. Others, like the ACX cooler, have aluminum splines separating the pipes, and have no gaps -- they can be lapped flat like any other surface.

I always approached it as though I was icing a cake or painting a small flat area. If both surfaces are near-perfectly flat, getting total coverage shouldn't be a problem.

 

[soccerballtux]

Ah, the mighty Ultra Kaze. Good price on a pretty good fan. I think you can do better static pressure wise, but for the cfm it's hard to beat em. Not sure how my Nidec Servo fan stacks up but whatever.

You're going to need a different application method for HDT coolers. I believe that most HDT coolers benefit from the paste being applied in lines (usually short lines) along the aluminum bits separating the copper heatpipes.

yes, I've seen that before and did that for the nth1.

also, holy server fan noise batman! the included fan is terribad worse than the one I already have!!!

is there any way to tell how static pressure will be by the design?

 

[soccerballtux]

All I can say is, stay the course and be persistent. You'll get your application methods squared away and you'll be producing optimal results with both TIMs and both HSFs in no time.

ACX + NH-T1 should be a good improvement. Good on you for using the same fan on both. If you don't mind me asking, what're the manufacturer and part ID for the fan? You might get better performance and less noise stepping down from the 133 cfm fan to a pair of 100 cfm fans in push/pull.

I do like the shark fans I have. however I have no good way to control them both at once... the other pwm slot is for my case fans. I would need to buy another fan hub

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I do like the shark fans I have. however I have no good way to control them both at once... the other pwm slot is for my case fans. I would need to buy another fan hub

The total amperage on a pair of fans connected to a single fan port cannot exceed what the port is spec'd to provide, but you can wire two identical fans in parallel and monitor one of them. You can also purchase a $5 3-pin fan-splitter that does the same thing without the tedium of soldering.