[Poll]Electronic Stability Control

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

I hear that a lot. But I have never, not once in my life, had ABS kick in on any car I've been driving, regardless of conditions. You know why? Because I don't drive like a goddamn idiot. The only times I've had traction control kick in were when I was trying to spin the tires and didn't want it to kick in.

I don't buy that ABS or ESC/Traction Control are anything close to necessary. Yes, if you're driving on the edge of the envelope then they can be handy, but you're a damned fool if you're driving like that on public roads. We'd be immeasurably better off if we simply revoked idiots' licenses, but for some incomprehensible reason we seem to be more focused on inventing computer systems to help keep dangerous morons behind the wheel. It's completely ass-backwards.

ZV

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

If you've screwed up, yes. I've heard ABS once during the winter from my car, and that was the first time I was ever driving in the snow, I ended up sliding across the road as I pulled out from my house. Nothing for the rest of that winter, or the next two. Just take it easy in the snow, and you're fine without the toys.

@ ZV - I like the idea of taking licenses for fucking up.

 

[shabby]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

I hear that a lot. But I have never, not once in my life, had ABS kick in on any car I've been driving, regardless of conditions. You know why? Because I don't drive like a goddamn idiot. The only times I've had traction control kick in were when I was trying to spin the tires and didn't want it to kick in.

ZV

You obviously never driven a solstice in snow, not exactly a perfect winter car even with blizzaks. Even going straight with a couple inches of snow is sometimes a challenge, esc/abs is constantly kicking in, i'm sure it's much different with other fwd cars but for a few rwd cars its a necessity.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

I hear that a lot. But I have never, not once in my life, had ABS kick in on any car I've been driving, regardless of conditions. You know why? Because I don't drive like a goddamn idiot. The only times I've had traction control kick in were when I was trying to spin the tires and didn't want it to kick in.

ZV

You obviously never driven a solstice in snow, not exactly a perfect winter car even with blizzaks. Even going straight with a couple inches of snow is sometimes a challenge, esc/abs is constantly kicking in, i'm sure it's much different with other fwd cars but for a few rwd cars its a necessity.

If I managed just fine in my 924S (RWD, open differential, no ABS, no ESC) in 12+ inches with summer tires on Pittsburgh hills, then there's no reason it can't be done with a Solstice. My Mustang and my Mark VIII also did fine in the snow without ABS/ESC being triggered.

The only time ABS or ESC come into play is after the driver has already screwed up. They are useful as safety nets for rare instances, but if your driving is so poor that you're invoking those systems regularly, you really have no business being on the roads in those conditions. It's just that simple.

ZV

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

I hear that a lot. But I have never, not once in my life, had ABS kick in on any car I've been driving, regardless of conditions. You know why? Because I don't drive like a goddamn idiot. The only times I've had traction control kick in were when I was trying to spin the tires and didn't want it to kick in.

I don't buy that ABS or ESC/Traction Control are anything close to necessary. Yes, if you're driving on the edge of the envelope then they can be handy, but you're a damned fool if you're driving like that on public roads. We'd be immeasurably better off if we simply revoked idiots' licenses, but for some incomprehensible reason we seem to be more focused on inventing computer systems to help keep dangerous morons behind the wheel. It's completely ass-backwards.

ZV

Perhaps my driving talent isn't as god-like as yours, but my opinion is that DSC (or whatever the car manufacturer chooses to call it) is a nice to have feature. I might (gasp) make a mistake and brake too late or steer hard to get out of the way of someone behaving unpredictably, or whatever.

My M3 has three modes: DSC on, which is full stability control, MDM (M-Dynamic-Mode), which is supposed to allow you to get squirrely but kick in before you lose control, and DSC off, no traction/stability control. I have yet to drive the car in anything other than DSC on, because I have no track experience (outside of a dragstrip).

 

[shabby]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
If I managed just fine in my 924S (RWD, open differential, no ABS, no ESC) in 12+ inches with summer tires on Pittsburgh hills, then there's no reason it can't be done with a Solstice.

Again you need to drive one to see it for your self, all cars are not created equal. Im just sharing the experience im having with my car, all other solstice gxp owners will tell you the same thing on how constantly abs/esc gets engaged in snow, it doesn't mean the driver cant drive.
The esc/abs gets engaged when any loss of traction/stability is felt or is about to occur due to steering angle/speed/yaw angle, and with only 4" of ground clearance and 245wide tires it certainly doesn't help in densely packed snow.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

I hear that a lot. But I have never, not once in my life, had ABS kick in on any car I've been driving, regardless of conditions. You know why? Because I don't drive like a goddamn idiot. The only times I've had traction control kick in were when I was trying to spin the tires and didn't want it to kick in.

I don't buy that ABS or ESC/Traction Control are anything close to necessary. Yes, if you're driving on the edge of the envelope then they can be handy, but you're a damned fool if you're driving like that on public roads. We'd be immeasurably better off if we simply revoked idiots' licenses, but for some incomprehensible reason we seem to be more focused on inventing computer systems to help keep dangerous morons behind the wheel. It's completely ass-backwards.

ZV

ABS kicks in easily just driving on my street when its covered in ice going 10km/h barely able to stop at a stop sign

This was for my i30 2000 and civic 2002

 

[EightySix Four]

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
If I managed just fine in my 924S (RWD, open differential, no ABS, no ESC) in 12+ inches with summer tires on Pittsburgh hills, then there's no reason it can't be done with a Solstice.

Again you need to drive one to see it for your self, all cars are not created equal. Im just sharing the experience im having with my car, all other solstice gxp owners will tell you the same thing on how constantly abs/esc gets engaged in snow, it doesn't mean the driver cant drive.
The esc/abs gets engaged when any loss of traction/stability is felt or is about to occur due to steering angle/speed/yaw angle, and with only 4" of ground clearance and 245wide tires it certainly doesn't help in densely packed snow.

+1 for shabby on this one, as an owner of a Sky RL I can attest to how terrbile this car is in inclimate weather. The RL/GXP has a similar sized wheelbase to the 924s, but the RL/GXP has nearly twice the horsepower and the power "comes on" in a non-linear fashion. You go past a certain amount of pedal, start producing boost, and poof goes the traction.

 

[LS8]

I haven't owned a car in a loooooong time that didn't have ABS and Traction Control. Unless you are buying entry level, el-cheapo, economy cars just about any car from 1996+ will have have ABS and Traction Control.

So far I have only had one car with Stability Control (My Lincoln LS8). I haven't noticed it while driving so if it's doing anything I don't know about it.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: crazySOB297

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
If I managed just fine in my 924S (RWD, open differential, no ABS, no ESC) in 12+ inches with summer tires on Pittsburgh hills, then there's no reason it can't be done with a Solstice.

Again you need to drive one to see it for your self, all cars are not created equal. Im just sharing the experience im having with my car, all other solstice gxp owners will tell you the same thing on how constantly abs/esc gets engaged in snow, it doesn't mean the driver cant drive.
The esc/abs gets engaged when any loss of traction/stability is felt or is about to occur due to steering angle/speed/yaw angle, and with only 4" of ground clearance and 245wide tires it certainly doesn't help in densely packed snow.

+1 for shabby on this one, as an owner of a Sky RL I can attest to how terrbile this car is in inclimate weather. The RL/GXP has a similar sized wheelbase to the 924s, but the RL/GXP has nearly twice the horsepower and the power "comes on" in a non-linear fashion. You go past a certain amount of pedal, start producing boost, and poof goes the traction.

I'm quite well aware of how the power comes on in turbocharged cars, and I can guarantee that my 951 is a good bit more "on/off" than a turbocharged Sky/Solstice. That doesn't change the fact that systems like ABS and ESC only engage after someone has overcooked it. Blame the car all you like, but the fact is that electronic nannies are safety nets for driver errors. If the power comes on when you're not expecting it, you aren't paying enough attention to driving.

As far as ABS on ice, fat lot of good it does. On sheet ice there are only two things that will help: chains or studded tires. Neither ABS nor ESC will save a driver on ice. As a point of fact, ABS more than doubles the stopping distance on sheet ice.

If ABS/ESC kicks in regularly, the issue is driver error. Period. It may be driver error from failing to mount chains or studded tires when conditions warrant them, but it remains driver error.

ZV

 

[Bignate603]

It seems like 90% of the people here act like they are some sort of race car driver. Seriously, for 99% of the time you're behind the wheel you're not going to notice it there. You shouldn't be pushing your car so much so that you're butting up against the electronics when you're commuting to work.

 

[LtPage1]

Of course. If it's a car that I might like to take to the track, then I'd like to be able to turn it off, though.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

If ABS/ESC kicks in regularly, the issue is driver error. Period. It may be driver error from failing to mount chains or studded tires when conditions warrant them, but it remains driver error.

ZV

So what should I do since I am full of driver error?
Chains and studs aren't allowed here

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Bignate603
It seems like 90% of the people here act like they are some sort of race car driver. Seriously, for 99% of the time you're behind the wheel you're not going to notice it there. You shouldn't be pushing your car so much so that you're butting up against the electronics when you're commuting to work.

I fully agree. That's my whole point. If you're driving such that you need those aids, then you're doing something wrong and driving too fast for conditions. While I believe they are useful safety nets, I think that they do more harm than good in the long run because they mask irresponsible driving.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
If ABS/ESC kicks in regularly, the issue is driver error. Period. It may be driver error from failing to mount chains or studded tires when conditions warrant them, but it remains driver error.

ZV

So what should I do since I am full of driver error?
Chains and studs aren't allowed here

Then slow the fvck down and work the throttle gently so you're not slip-sliding around. Amazingly enough, people used to get around just fine in RWD cars without electronic aids even with 1960's tire technology.

ZV

 

[shabby]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

If ABS/ESC kicks in regularly, the issue is driver error. Period.

What late model esc equipped cars have you driven in the snow?

 

[c3p0]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

I hear that a lot. But I have never, not once in my life, had ABS kick in on any car I've been driving, regardless of conditions. You know why? Because I don't drive like a goddamn idiot. The only times I've had traction control kick in were when I was trying to spin the tires and didn't want it to kick in.

I don't buy that ABS or ESC/Traction Control are anything close to necessary. Yes, if you're driving on the edge of the envelope then they can be handy, but you're a damned fool if you're driving like that on public roads. We'd be immeasurably better off if we simply revoked idiots' licenses, but for some incomprehensible reason we seem to be more focused on inventing computer systems to help keep dangerous morons behind the wheel. It's completely ass-backwards.

ZV

Thanks ZV...finally someone with brains instead of lead feet.

c3p0
:beer:

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

If ABS/ESC kicks in regularly, the issue is driver error. Period.

What late model esc equipped cars have you driven in the snow?

I agree with shabby. It's not always how responsible you are, but how well everyone around you is driving too. It just takes somebody pulling out in front of you without quite enough space to suddenly be thankful for your ABS. No matter how good a driver you are there's always a chance that something will happen that you couldn't possibly be prepared for.

Also, I'm convinced that the majority of the drivers on the road are pretty lousy. Unless they take away licenses from 50% of the population they are all still going to be on the roads and will benefit from the electronics.

 

[43st]

I used to think it was stupid and that it was only for soccer moms and/or idiots.. But I've driven too many times on icy roads and the technology is a million times faster than a human could ever be. The worst situation you can be is one where you have your vehicle under control and another driver is bearing down on you or has completely lost control of their vehicle. It's like having extra horsepower on a motorcycle.. it's there to give you options to get out of trouble.

I'm currently driving a Mazda3 with neither ABS or ESC. This winter I had two incidents where I was going well under 10 MPH and hit ice and went sideways. Both times I reacted, tapped the brakes like mad and pulled it out. Other cars fared much better entering the corner at the same speed, and I noticed their wheels clearly throbbing from the ABS. It's valuable in certain rare circumstances even if you are the best driver in the world.

 

[RGUN]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

I hear that a lot. But I have never, not once in my life, had ABS kick in on any car I've been driving, regardless of conditions. You know why? Because I don't drive like a goddamn idiot. The only times I've had traction control kick in were when I was trying to spin the tires and didn't want it to kick in.

I don't buy that ABS or ESC/Traction Control are anything close to necessary. Yes, if you're driving on the edge of the envelope then they can be handy, but you're a damned fool if you're driving like that on public roads. We'd be immeasurably better off if we simply revoked idiots' licenses, but for some incomprehensible reason we seem to be more focused on inventing computer systems to help keep dangerous morons behind the wheel. It's completely ass-backwards.

ZV

I gotta say ZV this is one instance where I completely disagree with you. As far as I see things its not a tool that is used everyday or every month or year even. It doesnt relinquish any responsibility to drive according to conditions and like you I have not had any system kick in under normal driving conditions. I have however had someone decide to make a right turn into my lane right infront of me - and while I did cover the brakes anticipated the retard move, I was very thankful for ABS in that instance. Also, driving to Toronto in January with terrible weather at night.... there is a section of the highway that goes downhill under the 427 cutoff.... We were crawling along but there was zero ability to slow down at all going down the hill - the car would just slide down, and while the 5 or 6 cars surrounding me spun circles and bounced off eachother, I was able to claw my way to safety definitely with help of ABS.

 

[KentState]

ESC and ABS is just like airbags and safety belts. Hopefully you don't have to use them, but if you do, they could be a life saver. Sometimes, people like ZV assume that everyone cares to drive like him or has the ability. I also have to laugh a little because the best F21 drivers in the world use electronic aids in their driving.

 

[swtethan]

Saved my ass once in a skid, so yes I would have it. its basically useless in snow so i turn it off and then gun my LSD

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: RGUN

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: shabby
And in winter esc/abs is a life saver.

I hear that a lot. But I have never, not once in my life, had ABS kick in on any car I've been driving, regardless of conditions. You know why? Because I don't drive like a goddamn idiot. The only times I've had traction control kick in were when I was trying to spin the tires and didn't want it to kick in.

I don't buy that ABS or ESC/Traction Control are anything close to necessary. Yes, if you're driving on the edge of the envelope then they can be handy, but you're a damned fool if you're driving like that on public roads. We'd be immeasurably better off if we simply revoked idiots' licenses, but for some incomprehensible reason we seem to be more focused on inventing computer systems to help keep dangerous morons behind the wheel. It's completely ass-backwards.

ZV

I gotta say ZV this is one instance where I completely disagree with you. As far as I see things its not a tool that is used everyday or every month or year even. It doesnt relinquish any responsibility to drive according to conditions and like you I have not had any system kick in under normal driving conditions. I have however had someone decide to make a right turn into my lane right infront of me - and while I did cover the brakes anticipated the retard move, I was very thankful for ABS in that instance. Also, driving to Toronto in January with terrible weather at night.... there is a section of the highway that goes downhill under the 427 cutoff.... We were crawling along but there was zero ability to slow down at all going down the hill - the car would just slide down, and while the 5 or 6 cars surrounding me spun circles and bounced off eachother, I was able to claw my way to safety definitely with help of ABS.

:thumbsup: 100%

To state that you consider experiencing the effects of ABS a weakness and a sign of poor driving is an example of car/driving machismo at it's finest.

ABS/ DSC/ESP are fine additions, as long as you can switch them off when you want/need to. I don't feel any less of a driver, more reckless or less manly for having it.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

ESC/ABS/DSC contribute to risk homeostasis for too many drivers. If you have electronic nannies ready to bail you out, you take more risks when driving.

That said, I am a lot more cautious in winter conditions and ABS has definitely helped a couple of times. It rarely snows where I live, but when it does, it falls thick, wet and heavy. Coupled with thawing and overnight freezing, roads can become treacherous quickly. Even with good all-season tires, I have had the ABS kick in at low speeds (15 km/h).

*No ESC and have never been in a collision*

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.veta.se/abs66ice.htm

Results
Superior control with ABS
Though the test track was straight and wide like a normal lane, the car ran off the 'road' in 94 of 706 tests without ABS.
With ABS in function, only one driver failed once to remain on the road (1of 707tests).
ABS and braking performance
The average deceleration was greater with ABS than without for all 24combinations of tyres and road surfaces.
However, many individual tests on the A-track resulted in greater deceleration when wheels were locked-up digging themselves down in the loose snow to a level with greater adhesion.
A short braking distance is not always favourable, though, when the car has left its lane.
Substantial differences between vehicles
On the harsh ice track (C), the average deceleration with Used Summer tyres and No ABS was less than 50% of that with New Studded snow tyres and ABS switched on.
In a situation where both cars start braking from the same point, this corresponds to the inferior car having three quarters left of the initial speed where the superior car has stopped completely.