[POLL] Duke Lacrosse Case -- Should the City of Durham Pay the Victims $30 million?

[WhipperSnapper]

Well, the justice and revenge aspect of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Hoax case is starting. Earlier the three victims reached an undisclosed settlement with Duke University for an undisclosed sum (I sure hope it was in the eight figures range). Now they're threatening to sue the city! (Oh my gosh, someone call the Mayor!)

So, how much should the City of Durham have to pay and how much does the City need to have a deterrence effect on other municipalities, police departments, and district attorneys offices across the country?

Of course, it's doubtful that the City of Durham, which reportedly only has insurance coverage for $5 million, will actually settle for $30 million and it's doubtful that the Plaintiffs' lawyers actually expect to get $30 million, either through a settlement or a damage award. (I suspect that the $30 million is just the starting point for bargaining purposes.)

News article here:

http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/696594.html

I think it would be awesome if the city had to pay significantly more than $5 million and if the end result were a complete political cleansing of the city from top to bottom, including a total cleansing of the police administration. (Imagine all of the corrupt city politicians being marched out after having been tarred and feathered. One can dream.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

For the record, I voted for the $30 million amount, but I also like the idea of "LET THE PURGE BEGIN!". (Borrowed that bit from the anime The Ghost in the Shell.)

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I voted $5 million. I don't think the tax payers should have to foot the bill for this type of incompetence. However, I do think that Nifong should be gone after personally for monetary damages. Sure, he probably doesn't have the money but it'd prevent him from making a mint from a future book.

 

[waggy]

i would be fine with 30 million.

the DA is the state. what he did was so wrong its sickening. the boys were lucky they could afford the attorney's they had.

 

[nageov3t]

why should the city pay anything? it was the media who tried and convicted the guys.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: loki8481
why should the city pay anything? it was the media who tried and convicted the guys.

Nifong did a good job himself as well.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: loki8481
why should the city pay anything? it was the media who tried and convicted the guys.

I must have missed the part where Foxnews filed rape charges against these kids in a court of law.

The city pays because one of their employee's went apeshit.
The city should also pay because its citizens pushed for prosecution. They got what they wanted now they should pay for it.

 

[ProfJohn]

I want to know when they are going after the accuser.

1. The police should get her for filing a false charge.
2. The Duke guys should sue her for anything she got as a ?gift? during the scandal. She had people paying for her college etc etc.

The message coming from the accuser right now is ?accuse a bunch of white guys of rape and get free stuff.? That message needs to be changed.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: loki8481
why should the city pay anything? it was the media who tried and convicted the guys.

Demonstrating that you know absolutely nothing about this case.

As to ProfJohn directly above, I generally agree, but I think an equally loud message needs to be sent to real victims of rape (already one of the most underreported crimes) that bringing charges against your accuser will not result in you being charged with a crime if it turns out there's not enough evidence to prosecute or if the accused is acquitted.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: loki8481
why should the city pay anything? it was the media who tried and convicted the guys.

urrr yeah.


Nifong charged them with rape.
Nifong was hideing evidance that would clear the boys.
Nifong continued to push the case when it was clear they were innocent.
Nifong said they were made remarks he should not have.


last time i checked Nifong did not work for any media outlet.

 

[se7en]

Ideally what I think should happen is yes give them upwards of 45 million in a settlement. Everyone in the city saw the news and hell even the state saw it all including the Govenor and no one stepped in to say "WTF is going on". As an outside citizen living here I had questions so how could Roy Cooper or Easley really not scratch their head watching the news wondering what Nifong was doing.

After paying the guys off then I think the city in turn should file a suit against Nifong to recover as much money as possible but I don't know if thats even legal. Of course he wont have much but that would send a clear message to over ambitious, politically motivated, vote seeking politicians (around here at least).

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

The City should pay them 30 million. Then Nifong should become an indentured servant working for the city until he's earned every penny of it back, and every toilet in Durham gleems and smells minty fresh.

 

[dmcowen674]

Topic Title: [POLL] Duke Lacrosse Case -- Should the City of Durham Pay the Victims $30 million?
Topic Summary: How much should the city have to pay? Reportedly, the insurance policy is only for $5 million.

City of Durham should be dissolved.

Officials have a fiduciary duty to oversee their public "Officials".

Maybe if cities get dissolved for their nefarious conduct if will be an example for others to be better in their behavior towards it's citizens.

 

[mfs378]

I wonder how people voting for the big amounts feel about medical malpractice awards?

 

[rpanic]

They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: rpanic
They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

You don't think the revenge aspects being proposed here are going to hurt women who are actually raped even more? If the city ends up getting bent over a barrel or the students go after their accuser with everything they've got, what message does that send to women who have actually been victim of a crime? It's bad what happened to those kids, but let's not take it too far the other way...we want to discourage malicious prosecution, but we don't want to deter cases with real merit. This is a fine line to be drawn here, and while it's tempting to want to string up everyone involved by their thumbs...I'm not sure that's such a good idea in the long run.

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic
They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

You don't think the revenge aspects being proposed here are going to hurt women who are actually raped even more? If the city ends up getting bent over a barrel or the students go after their accuser with everything they've got, what message does that send to women who have actually been victim of a crime? It's bad what happened to those kids, but let's not take it too far the other way...we want to discourage malicious prosecution, but we don't want to deter cases with real merit. This is a fine line to be drawn here, and while it's tempting to want to string up everyone involved by their thumbs...I'm not sure that's such a good idea in the long run.

I think this whole joke of a case hurt real victims more than any lawsuit can, and what you call revenge I call justice. If I was in there position with all the crap that went on I would be doing the same thing and going after everyone even if they had nothing. I just wish the people involved were made to suffer more. This case stank from beginning. These guys are not angels but they were raped by the city, college, and the media.

Come on, how would you honestly be felling if something like this happened to you or your son? Personally if this happend to me would want them dead, but since that isn?t going to happen making them impoverished will have to do.

 

[Craig234]

There's no choice for less than $5 million, but well above 0.

What happened is terrible and the prosecutor has been convicted. The city has some liability as it did not take corrective actions. The males deserve some compensation. However, there are limits. There are many far worse cases going on all the time of injustice; for a start, many who are locked up and later proven innocent, often by DNA, get little for what happened to them.

ProfJohn is right about *this case*, but he misses the larger fact that there are a lot of rape victims who get the opposite injustice, and he fails to consider the chilling effect on prosecuting real rapes that going too far in a case like this can have. If the government faces a chance of millions in liability for wrongful prosecution, and nothing but an upset victim if they don't prosecute, what are they likely to do?

National Review doesn't cover the hundreds of cases where the rape victim doesn't get justice, where the blacks are regularly mistreated, and so he doesn't hear a lot about them, andjust reacts to the rare case like this. That's the result from such a biased source of info.

 

[compuwiz1]

I think Nifong should have to pay them personally. He did not get the amount of jail time he deserved.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic
They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

You don't think the revenge aspects being proposed here are going to hurt women who are actually raped even more? If the city ends up getting bent over a barrel or the students go after their accuser with everything they've got, what message does that send to women who have actually been victim of a crime? It's bad what happened to those kids, but let's not take it too far the other way...we want to discourage malicious prosecution, but we don't want to deter cases with real merit. This is a fine line to be drawn here, and while it's tempting to want to string up everyone involved by their thumbs...I'm not sure that's such a good idea in the long run.

I think this whole joke of a case hurt real victims more than any lawsuit can, and what you call revenge I call justice. If I was in there position with all the crap that went on I would be doing the same thing and going after everyone even if they had nothing. I just wish the people involved were made to suffer more. This case stank from beginning. These guys are not angels but they were raped by the city, college, and the media.

Come on, how would you honestly be felling if something like this happened to you or your son? Personally if this happend to me would want them dead, but since that isn?t going to happen making them impoverished will have to do.

That's not the point, of course I would be angry and want to exact vengeance...but that's not how laws or intelligent public policy should be made. This case is terrible in the sense that it gives ammunition to folks who think rape is all made up by women, and it makes the next REAL "sports stars raping girls" case look like "yet another Duke Lacrosse case". Of course that's damaging to real victims, but piling on doesn't seem like a good idea. How is going after everyone involved with everything you've got NOT going to impact the next case that comes up? We don't want a system that goes after innocent people as a matter of course, but neither do we want a system that's too scared to prosecute the real bad guys for fear of what might happen if they lose the case.

Putting yourself in the shoes of the victim hardly ever results in sound judgement, but let's try it the other way around...suppose your sister or mother or girlfriend or wife or female friend was raped. How would you feel if the police refused to help her and the court system refused to hear her case because it wasn't an air tight case and everyone involved could be sued into the ground if things didn't go exactly right?

And I didn't want to say it before, but where the hell IS the concern for real rape victims here? These guys got a crappy deal here, but while we've devoted dozens of threads to just how we should "purge" the court system for having the gall to even think of prosecuting these kids, I have yet to hear anyone get even remotely as outraged about the many, many girls who have actually been raped while we've been discussing this case. DOES anyone care, or are we just so used to it that the only thing that actually captures our attention any more is when something bad happens to someone new?

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic
They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

You don't think the revenge aspects being proposed here are going to hurt women who are actually raped even more? If the city ends up getting bent over a barrel or the students go after their accuser with everything they've got, what message does that send to women who have actually been victim of a crime? It's bad what happened to those kids, but let's not take it too far the other way...we want to discourage malicious prosecution, but we don't want to deter cases with real merit. This is a fine line to be drawn here, and while it's tempting to want to string up everyone involved by their thumbs...I'm not sure that's such a good idea in the long run.

I think this whole joke of a case hurt real victims more than any lawsuit can, and what you call revenge I call justice. If I was in there position with all the crap that went on I would be doing the same thing and going after everyone even if they had nothing. I just wish the people involved were made to suffer more. This case stank from beginning. These guys are not angels but they were raped by the city, college, and the media.

Come on, how would you honestly be felling if something like this happened to you or your son? Personally if this happend to me would want them dead, but since that isn?t going to happen making them impoverished will have to do.

That's not the point, of course I would be angry and want to exact vengeance...but that's not how laws or intelligent public policy should be made. This case is terrible in the sense that it gives ammunition to folks who think rape is all made up by women, and it makes the next REAL "sports stars raping girls" case look like "yet another Duke Lacrosse case". Of course that's damaging to real victims, but piling on doesn't seem like a good idea. How is going after everyone involved with everything you've got NOT going to impact the next case that comes up? We don't want a system that goes after innocent people as a matter of course, but neither do we want a system that's too scared to prosecute the real bad guys for fear of what might happen if they lose the case.

Putting yourself in the shoes of the victim hardly ever results in sound judgement, but let's try it the other way around...suppose your sister or mother or girlfriend or wife or female friend was raped. How would you feel if the police refused to help her and the court system refused to hear her case because it wasn't an air tight case and everyone involved could be sued into the ground if things didn't go exactly right?

And I didn't want to say it before, but where the hell IS the concern for real rape victims here? These guys got a crappy deal here, but while we've devoted dozens of threads to just how we should "purge" the court system for having the gall to even think of prosecuting these kids, I have yet to hear anyone get even remotely as outraged about the many, many girls who have actually been raped while we've been discussing this case. DOES anyone care, or are we just so used to it that the only thing that actually captures our attention any more is when something bad happens to someone new?

I understand and I thought about this case already from the point of a real female victim. But this case went above the law when the DA and everyone else started to try to convict them in media for personal gain including the stripper. Even the college should not have done anything until they were convicted but everyone was afraid of not being PC.

If this were just a case that went to court with the same ending I wouldn?t think the same way about it. And lawsuits go both ways if this was a case of a woman really getting raped and they thought she was lying and then the truth came out, I would fell the same way for her.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic
They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

You don't think the revenge aspects being proposed here are going to hurt women who are actually raped even more? If the city ends up getting bent over a barrel or the students go after their accuser with everything they've got, what message does that send to women who have actually been victim of a crime? It's bad what happened to those kids, but let's not take it too far the other way...we want to discourage malicious prosecution, but we don't want to deter cases with real merit. This is a fine line to be drawn here, and while it's tempting to want to string up everyone involved by their thumbs...I'm not sure that's such a good idea in the long run.

I think this whole joke of a case hurt real victims more than any lawsuit can, and what you call revenge I call justice. If I was in there position with all the crap that went on I would be doing the same thing and going after everyone even if they had nothing. I just wish the people involved were made to suffer more. This case stank from beginning. These guys are not angels but they were raped by the city, college, and the media.

Come on, how would you honestly be felling if something like this happened to you or your son? Personally if this happend to me would want them dead, but since that isn?t going to happen making them impoverished will have to do.

That's not the point, of course I would be angry and want to exact vengeance...but that's not how laws or intelligent public policy should be made. This case is terrible in the sense that it gives ammunition to folks who think rape is all made up by women, and it makes the next REAL "sports stars raping girls" case look like "yet another Duke Lacrosse case". Of course that's damaging to real victims, but piling on doesn't seem like a good idea. How is going after everyone involved with everything you've got NOT going to impact the next case that comes up? We don't want a system that goes after innocent people as a matter of course, but neither do we want a system that's too scared to prosecute the real bad guys for fear of what might happen if they lose the case.

Putting yourself in the shoes of the victim hardly ever results in sound judgement, but let's try it the other way around...suppose your sister or mother or girlfriend or wife or female friend was raped. How would you feel if the police refused to help her and the court system refused to hear her case because it wasn't an air tight case and everyone involved could be sued into the ground if things didn't go exactly right?

And I didn't want to say it before, but where the hell IS the concern for real rape victims here? These guys got a crappy deal here, but while we've devoted dozens of threads to just how we should "purge" the court system for having the gall to even think of prosecuting these kids, I have yet to hear anyone get even remotely as outraged about the many, many girls who have actually been raped while we've been discussing this case. DOES anyone care, or are we just so used to it that the only thing that actually captures our attention any more is when something bad happens to someone new?

I understand and I thought about this case already from the point of a real female victim. But this case went above the law when the DA and everyone else started to try to convict them in media for personal gain including the stripper. Even the college should not have done anything until they were convicted but everyone was afraid of not being PC.

If this were just a case that went to court with the same ending I wouldn?t think the same way about it. And lawsuits go both ways if this was a case of a woman really getting raped and they thought she was lying and then the truth came out, I would fell the same way for her.

I'm not sure the appropriate solution is even more lawsuits. I think our civil court system is one of the worst and least democratic aspects of our society. But I think blurring the line between civil and criminal courts is a mistake. Don't get me wrong, if anyone is screwing around with the criminal court, I think they should be held liable...but they should be held liable for the criminal justice system, because what they did was criminal. Civil courts aren't the place to dispense justice, trying to use them in that fashion will only result in the court system being even more for sale than it is now.

Everyone gets their day in court, but that's not really true...especially in civil court, there is no way that everyone is treated equally, all too often he with the most money to spend on lawyers will win, or slowly bleed the other person into submission. If our criminal system can't handle cases of malicious prosecution and false accusation, I can't see how the civil system is going to do any better.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic
They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

You don't think the revenge aspects being proposed here are going to hurt women who are actually raped even more? If the city ends up getting bent over a barrel or the students go after their accuser with everything they've got, what message does that send to women who have actually been victim of a crime? It's bad what happened to those kids, but let's not take it too far the other way...we want to discourage malicious prosecution, but we don't want to deter cases with real merit. This is a fine line to be drawn here, and while it's tempting to want to string up everyone involved by their thumbs...I'm not sure that's such a good idea in the long run.

The effects on future victims is not and should be an issue in any civil suit raised by those wrongly accused. Besides the government already has very strong immunity if they are acting in good faith.

Edit: Any civil suit is about two things, making the person whole and/or punishing the individual for their conduct.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic
They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

You don't think the revenge aspects being proposed here are going to hurt women who are actually raped even more? If the city ends up getting bent over a barrel or the students go after their accuser with everything they've got, what message does that send to women who have actually been victim of a crime? It's bad what happened to those kids, but let's not take it too far the other way...we want to discourage malicious prosecution, but we don't want to deter cases with real merit. This is a fine line to be drawn here, and while it's tempting to want to string up everyone involved by their thumbs...I'm not sure that's such a good idea in the long run.

The effects on future victims is not and should be an issue in any civil suit raised by those wrongly accused. Besides the government already has very strong immunity if they are acting in good faith.

Edit: Any civil suit is about two things, making the person whole and/or punishing the individual for their conduct.

Bullshit. Civil suits are ridiculous wastes of time and money, the amounts awarded are almost always greatly in excess of whatever the actual damages could possibly be, and CRIMINAL court should be where individuals are punished for their conduct, not in some civil courtroom where money almost always seems to buy "justice".

But please, tell me why it's not a concern? Sure, the government might be somewhat protected, but how about the person who brought the charges in the first place? Wouldn't the threat of a crippling lawsuit silence a lot of victims? And don't dodge the issue, of course it's a concern...and quite frankly a bigger one than this particular case. Yeah, the kids here got a crummy deal, but they were found innocent and can go on with their lives. Something tells me they'll bounce back quicker than rape victims do...

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: rpanic
They had to put up with a lot of abuse before the trial ended, they should all get as much as possible. Can they go after the individuals like the DA and the officers separately or are they shielded by the city? Does anyone know how much the school had to fork over yet, hope it was a lot?

Its cases like this that hurt everyone including women that are actually raped.

You don't think the revenge aspects being proposed here are going to hurt women who are actually raped even more? If the city ends up getting bent over a barrel or the students go after their accuser with everything they've got, what message does that send to women who have actually been victim of a crime? It's bad what happened to those kids, but let's not take it too far the other way...we want to discourage malicious prosecution, but we don't want to deter cases with real merit. This is a fine line to be drawn here, and while it's tempting to want to string up everyone involved by their thumbs...I'm not sure that's such a good idea in the long run.

The effects on future victims is not and should be an issue in any civil suit raised by those wrongly accused. Besides the government already has very strong immunity if they are acting in good faith.

Edit: Any civil suit is about two things, making the person whole and/or punishing the individual for their conduct.

Bullshit. Civil suits are ridiculous wastes of time and money, the amounts awarded are almost always greatly in excess of whatever the actual damages could possibly be, and CRIMINAL court should be where individuals are punished for their conduct, not in some civil courtroom where money almost always seems to buy "justice".

But please, tell me why it's not a concern? Sure, the government might be somewhat protected, but how about the person who brought the charges in the first place? Wouldn't the threat of a crippling lawsuit silence a lot of victims? And don't dodge the issue, of course it's a concern...and quite frankly a bigger one than this particular case. Yeah, the kids here got a crummy deal, but they were found innocent and can go on with their lives. Something tells me they'll bounce back quicker than rape victims do...

You should be complain to the jury and the legislator who decided the amount of damages and who decided to allow punitive damages.

The effects on future rape victims isn't an issue because they are not a party in the lawsuit. Unless the accused rapist can prove that his accuser knowingly lied then he can't sue.