In europe, porn is a lot more common and there is a lot less teenage pregnancy and sexual crimes against women. More porno does not necessarily mean more violence against women. IMHO that is.
but I do not think European porno and US porno are on the same level ... sh1t like Max Hardcore is a little wack. Lots of US porn exists to blatantly exploit women which aint cool.
some deep end hard core porn does promote rape. but mainstream porn is still bad because
people are objectified as lifeless and one-dimensional. whether you view the stuff once
or habitually, people in hard core flicks are reduced to body parts or close-up sex acts.
some soft-core porn emphasizes romance by injecting alot of conversation and instructional
foreplay. an effort is made in these type of porn films to flesh out individual people.
i agree with the above that a pre-existing mental disorder leads to the unhealthy fixation
with porn. there is nothing inherently addictive in pornography. conditioned perspectives
are the basis.
people are objectified as lifeless and one-dimensional. whether you view the stuff once
or habitually, people in hard core flicks are reduced to body parts or close-up sex acts.
some soft-core porn emphasizes romance by injecting alot of conversation and instructional
foreplay. an effort is made in these type of porn films to flesh out individual people.
i agree with the above that a pre-existing mental disorder leads to the unhealthy fixation
with porn. there is nothing inherently addictive in pornography. conditioned perspectives
are the basis.
I believe it is firmly rooted in the "victim mentality" prevalent today that instead of people being prone to commit acts, and consequently attracted to pictures, movies, video games, tools (guns), etc., they are considered to be normal, healthy innocent lambs who are twisted into animals by the above-mentioned objects (guns make killers, porn movies make rapists, etc.). It's a dangerous perspective to take as it removes culpability from where it belongs, on the perpetrator.
Everyone is NOT a saint waiting to be victimized by an inanimate object.
Everyone is NOT a saint waiting to be victimized by an inanimate object.
it's a question of whether it becomes a person's obsession, or escape.
some is okay, but sames as most everything, there is a thing as too much.
i think rape should be considered nearly as bad as murder.
some is okay, but sames as most everything, there is a thing as too much.
i think rape should be considered nearly as bad as murder.
"<< Why else would we consider a case in which a male rapes a female a very sad event, but when the opposite happens (female rapes male), people just laugh about it. >>
First of all, while it does happen, it is a fairly rare occurrence. The idea that men are raped as often as women (especiall BY women) is a myth"
I cant count on my fingers the number of men at my college during the last 4 years who have been expelled/suspended by the school after criminal charges were pressed against them for rape/sexual abuse, primarially after both parties got drunk. Im NOT talking about power rapes, im not talking about rapes where the victim got raped in the woods, or an alley. Im talking about they went to the bars, met, both got drunk, went back to one of them's apartment, had sex, and later, the man gets charged with rape. Now, Im truly believe some of these were non-consensual. Perhaps getting this woman drunk was the mans idea in the first place-so he could have sex with her. But upon looking at these cases, it appears the norm is that after having sex, the woman simply doesnt remember all that happened, is embarressed, ashamed, and prompted by our (former) bitchy director of health services (read rape advisor), they want charges pressed.
Now, how come it isnt the other way around? Why do the courts assume that is was the mans fault? In Ohio, if on party is intoxicated and you have sex w/em, the law considers it RAPE. Yet NOT ONE SINGLE TIME has a woman been charged with rape over a similar incident in the 4+ years Ive been here. The courts are BIASED towards women as the victim. And it sucks.
Im not even going to try and claim men are "raped" on the same frequency as woman....however, it happens, but when you have societal pressures and a FUBAR'd court system, you just dont see it. Men will wake up after a alchohol fueled one night stand and say to his friends, GODDAMM, I MUSTA HAD SOME HEAVY DUTY BEER GOGGLES ON!". Many times women will say to her friends "I WAS RAPED!"
sorry for the slightly OT, and for what surely wont be popular, but i felt the need to say it.
First of all, while it does happen, it is a fairly rare occurrence. The idea that men are raped as often as women (especiall BY women) is a myth"
I cant count on my fingers the number of men at my college during the last 4 years who have been expelled/suspended by the school after criminal charges were pressed against them for rape/sexual abuse, primarially after both parties got drunk. Im NOT talking about power rapes, im not talking about rapes where the victim got raped in the woods, or an alley. Im talking about they went to the bars, met, both got drunk, went back to one of them's apartment, had sex, and later, the man gets charged with rape. Now, Im truly believe some of these were non-consensual. Perhaps getting this woman drunk was the mans idea in the first place-so he could have sex with her. But upon looking at these cases, it appears the norm is that after having sex, the woman simply doesnt remember all that happened, is embarressed, ashamed, and prompted by our (former) bitchy director of health services (read rape advisor), they want charges pressed.
Now, how come it isnt the other way around? Why do the courts assume that is was the mans fault? In Ohio, if on party is intoxicated and you have sex w/em, the law considers it RAPE. Yet NOT ONE SINGLE TIME has a woman been charged with rape over a similar incident in the 4+ years Ive been here. The courts are BIASED towards women as the victim. And it sucks.
Im not even going to try and claim men are "raped" on the same frequency as woman....however, it happens, but when you have societal pressures and a FUBAR'd court system, you just dont see it. Men will wake up after a alchohol fueled one night stand and say to his friends, GODDAMM, I MUSTA HAD SOME HEAVY DUTY BEER GOGGLES ON!". Many times women will say to her friends "I WAS RAPED!"
sorry for the slightly OT, and for what surely wont be popular, but i felt the need to say it.
The crazies are going to be crazy with or without porn, mashed potatoes, or Catcher in the Rye.
And from what my brother told me about Holland, the European stuff is much more disgusting than the US stuff. Remember the German video in the South Park movie?
And from what my brother told me about Holland, the European stuff is much more disgusting than the US stuff. Remember the German video in the South Park movie?
As a clinical psychologist who has done some reading and studying of issues such as those raised here, I would like to throw in my two cents:
These types of questions are always complicated because people are interested in "causality" - that is porn causes men to rape, when in fact, most studies can only demonstrate (or not - which is generally the case here) that porn seems related to (i.e. correlated with) certain sexual attitudes towards women and sexual violence. Obviously we can't complete an experimental study of the effects of porn on likelihood to commit rape, so we can only look at its' relationship to men's behavior. Have most rapists been exposed to pornography? Absolutely. How many men on this list have been exposed to pornography? Likely most. Hence the problem.
Further, the chicken and egg dilemma. Do perverse attitudes towards women "create" an environment in which things such as porn are created to nurture such attitudes, or do things such as porn "create" the attitudes? Again, difficult to answer but most of the evidence across history and cultures would suggest that viewing women as objects has been around since the dawn of time and as society evolves, so to does the manner in which its' views become expressed. Thus, porn reinforces already established views in adults. Now then, could porn create attitudes in children who prior to viewing have not formed such opinions? Absolutely. Thus, the necessary restrictions for limiting young people's exposure to such material.
The point made previously that people get used to porn of a certain level and eventually need even more hardcore material is incorrect. What happens is people "habituate" and eventually curtail their exposure or take breaks from it all together. The old addage "you seen one, you seen them all". This we have evidence for.
The most important thing to remember is that it is a mathematical certainty that rapists and other violent offenders will "always" exist. No matter what society does to try and prevent their creation. Period. What we need to do is through education reduce the more pervasive problem of implicit sexual objectification that does not lead to things like rape, but detrimentally impacts the impressionable young minds of our countries girls when they are reinforced only for being attractive, and not for being intelligent. These things lead to discrimination in education, in the economy, etc. Jokes, commercials, men making what appear to be harmelss comments, etc. all serve to cause our nation's female youth much more damage collectively, than the sexual violence that occurs in the form of rape. These types of less explicit forms of objectification lead to the most reliable estimates that at least, AT LEAST, 1 in 4 women will be sexually acosted at some point in their life. 25%! will be groped, inappropriately propositioned, or sexually assaulted in other ways.
These types of questions are always complicated because people are interested in "causality" - that is porn causes men to rape, when in fact, most studies can only demonstrate (or not - which is generally the case here) that porn seems related to (i.e. correlated with) certain sexual attitudes towards women and sexual violence. Obviously we can't complete an experimental study of the effects of porn on likelihood to commit rape, so we can only look at its' relationship to men's behavior. Have most rapists been exposed to pornography? Absolutely. How many men on this list have been exposed to pornography? Likely most. Hence the problem.
Further, the chicken and egg dilemma. Do perverse attitudes towards women "create" an environment in which things such as porn are created to nurture such attitudes, or do things such as porn "create" the attitudes? Again, difficult to answer but most of the evidence across history and cultures would suggest that viewing women as objects has been around since the dawn of time and as society evolves, so to does the manner in which its' views become expressed. Thus, porn reinforces already established views in adults. Now then, could porn create attitudes in children who prior to viewing have not formed such opinions? Absolutely. Thus, the necessary restrictions for limiting young people's exposure to such material.
The point made previously that people get used to porn of a certain level and eventually need even more hardcore material is incorrect. What happens is people "habituate" and eventually curtail their exposure or take breaks from it all together. The old addage "you seen one, you seen them all". This we have evidence for.
The most important thing to remember is that it is a mathematical certainty that rapists and other violent offenders will "always" exist. No matter what society does to try and prevent their creation. Period. What we need to do is through education reduce the more pervasive problem of implicit sexual objectification that does not lead to things like rape, but detrimentally impacts the impressionable young minds of our countries girls when they are reinforced only for being attractive, and not for being intelligent. These things lead to discrimination in education, in the economy, etc. Jokes, commercials, men making what appear to be harmelss comments, etc. all serve to cause our nation's female youth much more damage collectively, than the sexual violence that occurs in the form of rape. These types of less explicit forms of objectification lead to the most reliable estimates that at least, AT LEAST, 1 in 4 women will be sexually acosted at some point in their life. 25%! will be groped, inappropriately propositioned, or sexually assaulted in other ways.
OK, after digging through 6 pages of Google links I think I finally came up with a link to the article that Isla mentioned.
Martin Amis: "To Millions of American Men, These Women Are Movie Stars", Talk magazine, February 2001
In the process of reading it now...
[EDIT]On second thought, it's a pretty rough article. PM me if you want the link.[/EDIT]
Viper GTS
Martin Amis: "To Millions of American Men, These Women Are Movie Stars", Talk magazine, February 2001
In the process of reading it now...
[EDIT]On second thought, it's a pretty rough article. PM me if you want the link.[/EDIT]
Viper GTS
MAzrim: "The most important thing to remember is that it is a mathematical certainty that rapists and other violent offenders will "always" exist. No matter what society does to try and prevent their creation. Period."
Upon what do you base this conclusion. I would think that a statement like that could only be made when the final word on human nature has been written.
Upon what do you base this conclusion. I would think that a statement like that could only be made when the final word on human nature has been written.
<< Using that example, most jobs would be considered bad or wrong on some level.
I wouldnt want my sister, mother, girlfriend, daughter, etc working retail for instance.
That doesnt mean Retail is bad, does it? And yes, retail definately portrays people as objects.
Most jobs do.
If you dont work for yourself or have a trust fund youre feeding off of, you are most likely portrayed as an object every day. (usually for 8+ hours.
) >>Ok, you win the Anandtech Dumbass of the Day Award. So, if your girlfriend comes home and says "Honey, guess what I did at work today? I did a Double Penetration shot and then seven guys shot their load on me!" your reaction would be the same as if she came home from The Gap and said "I sold 12 pairs of jeans and three T-Shirts." ?!?!?!?!
:disgust:
<< But upon looking at these cases, it appears the norm is that after having sex, the woman simply doesnt remember all that happened, is embarressed, ashamed, and prompted by our (former) bitchy director of health services (read rape advisor), they want charges pressed.
Now, how come it isnt the other way around? Why do the courts assume that is was the mans fault? In Ohio, if on party is intoxicated and you have sex w/em, the law considers it RAPE. Yet NOT ONE SINGLE TIME has a woman been charged with rape over a similar incident in the 4+ years Ive been here. The courts are BIASED towards women as the victim. And it sucks. >>
You're making an awful lot of assumptions here. You obviously weren't with them and you don't know what happened. As for the second part, how many drunk men do you knwo that turn women away from their bed? I'm making assumptions too, of course. However, it's estimated that in nearly 75% of rape cases either the victim or the assailant are under the influence of drugs or alcohol. To assume that a woman just "changed her mind" after she woke up the next day and cried rape is not very likely. Because a woman gets drunk and leaves with a guy does not mean she cannot be raped. You say this, but your (assumed) implication is that it happens all the time.
The truth of the matter is that about 2% of rapes reported are falsified reports, which is about the same for other crimes.
The woman I described in the first post of this thread left a nightclub with the man who raped her. He raped her in the car and then 4 of his friends met him there and they beat and raped her all night. Then again, according to your theory, maybe she just changed her mind the next morning...
<< The point made previously that people get used to porn of a certain level and eventually need even more hardcore material is incorrect. What happens is people "habituate" and eventually curtail their exposure or take breaks from it all together. The old addage "you seen one, you seen them all". This we have evidence for. >>
I would like to see this evidence, as I have read things to the contrary. I also know many people who would agree firsthand that once "you seen them all," you look for new, more extreme things. (Especially these days when it's all accessible in anonymity online.
Ok... last post and I'll back off for a bit.
It seems that the porn supporters come out at night, judging by what happened to the poll overnight. Interesting demographic.
Anyway... I've seen it brought up, but I was thinking about a lot of the responses from both sides. Most of the people here are viewing rapists in this stereotyped drooling, crusty stains on the pants, screw anything that moves type of way.
The truth is, the majority of rapes are commited by acquaintances of the victim - generally 75-80%. I know, it's dangerous citing statistics... BUT... () In one study, up to 43% of "college-aged men" admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including physical aggression to force intercourse. That may be high, but honestly, knowing some of the guys I went to school with, it probably isn't.
Now, you're right, there are some men who would rape no matter what, I have no doubts about that. But what about (using another stereotype) the fraternity that watches porn movies in their house. They cheer on the stars as a group, calling for them to "f*** that ho..." Then two nights later, on the weekend, a couple of the guys decide to spike the punch at the party and double team a girl in the game room.
I never claimed, as some of you (the psychologist included) are saying, that pornography "CAUSES" violence against women. I asked if it contributes to it. Did the mentality of the porn movie and its aggression toward women contribute to a girl getting drugged and raped in my hypothetical, stereotypical case?
There are 50,000 members here at AT. Probably 45,000 are male. I would assert that at least 1,000 of them have sexually assaulted a female in their lifetime. That's a conservative estimate.
It seems that the porn supporters come out at night, judging by what happened to the poll overnight. Interesting demographic.
Anyway... I've seen it brought up, but I was thinking about a lot of the responses from both sides. Most of the people here are viewing rapists in this stereotyped drooling, crusty stains on the pants, screw anything that moves type of way.
The truth is, the majority of rapes are commited by acquaintances of the victim - generally 75-80%. I know, it's dangerous citing statistics... BUT... (
) In one study, up to 43% of "college-aged men" admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including physical aggression to force intercourse. That may be high, but honestly, knowing some of the guys I went to school with, it probably isn't.Now, you're right, there are some men who would rape no matter what, I have no doubts about that. But what about (using another stereotype) the fraternity that watches porn movies in their house. They cheer on the stars as a group, calling for them to "f*** that ho..." Then two nights later, on the weekend, a couple of the guys decide to spike the punch at the party and double team a girl in the game room.
I never claimed, as some of you (the psychologist included) are saying, that pornography "CAUSES" violence against women. I asked if it contributes to it. Did the mentality of the porn movie and its aggression toward women contribute to a girl getting drugged and raped in my hypothetical, stereotypical case?
There are 50,000 members here at AT. Probably 45,000 are male. I would assert that at least 1,000 of them have sexually assaulted a female in their lifetime. That's a conservative estimate.
<< There are 50,000 members here at AT. Probably 45,000 are male. I would assert that at least 1,000 of them have sexually assaulted a female in their lifetime. That's a conservative estimate. >>
You're scaring me. Seriously
Honestly, if you want to go on about the correctness of having porn available in society you can all sit here and argue all day. The fact of the matter is, no matter how many people feel how strongly about pornography in America, there's so little chance anything will ever be done about it it's not even worth arguing about. If you feel that strongly, sure, go out and be activist against it... obviously without harming people whose views you oppose.
As for rape being aggervated or induced by pornography, I couldn't disagree more. The type of people that are prone to rape or molest aren't going to be more or less likely to do so because of pornography. And those that don't have whatever neurological problem causes someone to rape someone else aren't going to see pornography and suddenly think maybe rape/molestation is a good idea. In fact, without some predisposition, I seriously doubt that pornography would even so much as induce even a slight hint of that mode of thinking.
Rapists, over many different psychological studies, have been shown to have committed the rapes as a means of power or control. Rape is almost never reactionary to any sort of sexual tension/frustration.
As far as women being objects... that is entirely dependent on your state of mind when viewing the pornography. I have seen classy porn, I have seen sleazy porn. I'm female. I don't feel degraded or in any way devalued because some other woman chose to be in a porn film. She does not reflect on me. Nor do I reflect on her. How should I let what some complete stranger does reflect on who I am as a person, just because she has a bit of a higher profile than I do? On a societal note, honestly, with all of the current mindset about women in society... with more women earning high dollar amounts, and starting their own businesses, and still being successful parents and homemakers, I don't see how anyone could say that because a woman still wants to be sexual or sensual that she's in any way devalued. And the people that do still objectify women aren't going to stop, and their minds aren't going to change regardless of societal perception or current events. There will always be mysogynistic people... as there will always be women who bash men. The trick is just to avoid those sorts of people as often as possible.
Tamara
As for rape being aggervated or induced by pornography, I couldn't disagree more. The type of people that are prone to rape or molest aren't going to be more or less likely to do so because of pornography. And those that don't have whatever neurological problem causes someone to rape someone else aren't going to see pornography and suddenly think maybe rape/molestation is a good idea. In fact, without some predisposition, I seriously doubt that pornography would even so much as induce even a slight hint of that mode of thinking.
Rapists, over many different psychological studies, have been shown to have committed the rapes as a means of power or control. Rape is almost never reactionary to any sort of sexual tension/frustration.
As far as women being objects... that is entirely dependent on your state of mind when viewing the pornography. I have seen classy porn, I have seen sleazy porn. I'm female. I don't feel degraded or in any way devalued because some other woman chose to be in a porn film. She does not reflect on me. Nor do I reflect on her. How should I let what some complete stranger does reflect on who I am as a person, just because she has a bit of a higher profile than I do? On a societal note, honestly, with all of the current mindset about women in society... with more women earning high dollar amounts, and starting their own businesses, and still being successful parents and homemakers, I don't see how anyone could say that because a woman still wants to be sexual or sensual that she's in any way devalued. And the people that do still objectify women aren't going to stop, and their minds aren't going to change regardless of societal perception or current events. There will always be mysogynistic people... as there will always be women who bash men. The trick is just to avoid those sorts of people as often as possible.
Tamara
>What we need to do is through education reduce the more pervasive >problem of implicit sexual objectification that does not lead to things >like rape, but detrimentally impacts the impressionable young minds of >our countries girls when they are reinforced only for being attractive, >and not for being intelligent.
I think this is very important also. You can't argue that porn doesn't objectify women to at least *some* degree. What I remember from *my* social psychology text was that there were no associations found between non-violent pornography (consensual) and mens attitudes toward's women, but there were with violent porn (and that they had trouble de-programming the men here I think too). I think violent porn is *not* good, but I can not for the life of me think of why naked attractive women are inherently harmful to people in general, outside of the problem of objectification.
I think we are for some part missing another important thing too, what is really more oppressive to women, naked pictures of women, or beauty magazines and our standard of beauty for women? It's like most people are very put off by the idea of subliminal advertising, but ignore the fact that they are bombarded by advertisements for hours a day that are not subliminal. If women could walk around with makeup and all the other stuff that they more or less *have* to do to be accepted by society, I bet this would have more effect than banning porn.
I think this is very important also. You can't argue that porn doesn't objectify women to at least *some* degree. What I remember from *my* social psychology text was that there were no associations found between non-violent pornography (consensual) and mens attitudes toward's women, but there were with violent porn (and that they had trouble de-programming the men here I think too). I think violent porn is *not* good, but I can not for the life of me think of why naked attractive women are inherently harmful to people in general, outside of the problem of objectification.
I think we are for some part missing another important thing too, what is really more oppressive to women, naked pictures of women, or beauty magazines and our standard of beauty for women? It's like most people are very put off by the idea of subliminal advertising, but ignore the fact that they are bombarded by advertisements for hours a day that are not subliminal. If women could walk around with makeup and all the other stuff that they more or less *have* to do to be accepted by society, I bet this would have more effect than banning porn.
<<
I think we are for some part missing another important thing too, what is really more oppressive to women, naked pictures of women, or beauty magazines and our standard of beauty for women? It's like most people are very put off by the idea of subliminal advertising, but ignore the fact that they are bombarded by advertisements for hours a day that are not subliminal. If women could walk around with makeup and all the other stuff that they more or less *have* to do to be accepted by society, I bet this would have more effect than banning porn. >>
if we are going to go this route why not accuse the same thing on male porn. what if I was a stripper? would people be suggting that we'd have males raped? Come one we all know it happens but why isn't it publicly known? becuase it's not reported.
Male apes rape female apes ocassionally. Usually it are the lower placed apes in the group who do this. They don't have porn.
<< if we are going to go this route why not accuse the same thing on male porn. what if I was a stripper? would people be suggting that we'd have males raped? Come one we all know it happens but why isn't it publicly known? becuase it's not reported. >>
It is true that males are raped. Boys are sexually assaulted as often a girls are. It is true that men are raped, but the occurance is not nearly as high for as women. I've seen it estimated that men make up as much as 7-10% of rape victims. What IS important to note, however, is that almost all rapes are done by men. When a man is raped, he is generally raped by another man. It is extremely rare that a woman rapes a man. It happens, but not often at all.
Saying that men are raped as often as women, but they just don't report the rapes, is ignorant. It happens, but not as nearly as often as women are raped, except with children, where the abuse is unbiased to gender. Just for reference, it's estimated that only about 10% of rapes (of males or females) are reported at all.
<< Elledan, how come it seems every other post of yours is some statistic about ape sex?
>>Well, apes are our closest relatives, and besides, I do watch a lot of Discovery/National Geographic Channel
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