Poll: Do you believe that an economic collapse will bring about socialist reforms?

[dmcowen674]

8-23-2007 Banks Borrow More From Federal Reserve - $1.2 billion a day

Banks have stepped up their borrowing from the Federal Reserve, encouraged by central bank policymakers to help stem a credit crunch that has roiled Wall Street.

The Federal Reserve said the daily average borrowing for the week ending Wednesday was $1.2 billion.

That was the highest since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the Fed said in a report Thursday.

 

[glugglug]

No, nothing will come of it as we haven't had a legitimate voting system in this country for over a decade.
The reforms will come on after the government is violently overthrown, if they happen at all.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: yllus
I think that many forget that the United States does not promise a comfortable standard of living to anyone. It merely promises opportunity, of which I can assure all of you the U.S. has in spades in relative to the rest of the world. I had dinner with a (very attractive) PhD economics student last night during which we discussed some things relevant to her thesis: The varying levels of opportunity in some parts of the Western world as opposed to others.

Your beliefs are contradicted by reality - amongst the western world the US is in fact quite the opposite of the land of opportunity. Of course, when I speak of opportunity I mean real, measurable opportunity and how it affects the population as a whole, not the opportunity you speak of, which (judging from your soliloquy about SV) has more in common with the opportunity the lottery offers.

Let me sum up the figures: if you're born in a lower class in the US, your chances of ending up in a different class are much lower than in other countries, Canada amongst them.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collectio...SuttonTrust_report.htm

 

[Albatross]

the US system is UNFAIRLY biased angainst morons,impotents and self-pity fools.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: yllus
I think that many forget that the United States does not promise a comfortable standard of living to anyone. It merely promises opportunity, of which I can assure all of you the U.S. has in spades in relative to the rest of the world. I had dinner with a (very attractive) PhD economics student last night during which we discussed some things relevant to her thesis: The varying levels of opportunity in some parts of the Western world as opposed to others.

Your beliefs are contradicted by reality - amongst the western world the US is in fact quite the opposite of the land of opportunity. Of course, when I speak of opportunity I mean real, measurable opportunity and how it affects the population as a whole, not the opportunity you speak of, which (judging from your soliloquy about SV) has more in common with the opportunity the lottery offers.

Let me sum up the figures: if you're born in a lower class in the US, your chances of ending up in a different class are much lower than in other countries, Canada amongst them.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collectio...SuttonTrust_report.htm

Which explains why so many immigrants come to the US and become successful, right?

One of my best friends is an Iranian immigrant who came to US less than 10 years ago and today makes a comfortable 6-figure income with (of all things) his own paintless dent repair business.
Most of my high-end clientele are immigrants who came to the US with little to nothing and found success.

So I'll take that reality over your typical googled biased link crap any day of the week, okay?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: albatross
the US system is UNFAIRLY biased angainst morons,impotents and self-pity fools.

I don't see anything unfair about that. What are you? A Creationist or something like that?

It might be unfair that we don't provide such with a better social safety net, but by no means whatsoever do they deserve even a remotely equal quality of life as those who actually create and provide in this world.

 

[Fern]

^ Vic, I'm just guessing here, but I think the batteries in your sarcasm meter need replaced 😉

Fern

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: yllus
I think that many forget that the United States does not promise a comfortable standard of living to anyone. It merely promises opportunity, of which I can assure all of you the U.S. has in spades in relative to the rest of the world. I had dinner with a (very attractive) PhD economics student last night during which we discussed some things relevant to her thesis: The varying levels of opportunity in some parts of the Western world as opposed to others.

Your beliefs are contradicted by reality - amongst the western world the US is in fact quite the opposite of the land of opportunity. Of course, when I speak of opportunity I mean real, measurable opportunity and how it affects the population as a whole, not the opportunity you speak of, which (judging from your soliloquy about SV) has more in common with the opportunity the lottery offers.

Let me sum up the figures: if you're born in a lower class in the US, your chances of ending up in a different class are much lower than in other countries, Canada amongst them.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collectio...SuttonTrust_report.htm

Which explains why so many immigrants come to the US and become successful, right?

One of my best friends is an Iranian immigrant who came to US less than 10 years ago and today makes a comfortable 6-figure income with (of all things) his own paintless dent repair business.
Most of my high-end clientele are immigrants who came to the US with little to nothing and found success.

So I'll take that reality over your typical googled biased link crap any day of the week, okay?

The Study shows that Upward Mobility is better in places. Not that it exists in some and not in others.

Your Iranian friends story has also occurred countless times in Canada as well. Also occurred in Britain, Continental Europe, and probably other places.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Fern
^ Vic, I'm just guessing here, but I think the batteries in your sarcasm meter need replaced 😉

Fern

Yaknow, I swear I replaced those batteries after that incident on Monday....

*shakes meter, bangs side, bad rattling noise is heard*

Awww.... fsck...

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: yllus
I think that many forget that the United States does not promise a comfortable standard of living to anyone. It merely promises opportunity, of which I can assure all of you the U.S. has in spades in relative to the rest of the world. I had dinner with a (very attractive) PhD economics student last night during which we discussed some things relevant to her thesis: The varying levels of opportunity in some parts of the Western world as opposed to others.

Your beliefs are contradicted by reality - amongst the western world the US is in fact quite the opposite of the land of opportunity. Of course, when I speak of opportunity I mean real, measurable opportunity and how it affects the population as a whole, not the opportunity you speak of, which (judging from your soliloquy about SV) has more in common with the opportunity the lottery offers.

Let me sum up the figures: if you're born in a lower class in the US, your chances of ending up in a different class are much lower than in other countries, Canada amongst them.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collectio...SuttonTrust_report.htm

Which explains why so many immigrants come to the US and become successful, right?

One of my best friends is an Iranian immigrant who came to US less than 10 years ago and today makes a comfortable 6-figure income with (of all things) his own paintless dent repair business.
Most of my high-end clientele are immigrants who came to the US with little to nothing and found success.

So I'll take that reality over your typical googled biased link crap any day of the week, okay?

The Study shows that Upward Mobility is better in places. Not that it exists in some and not in others.

Your Iranian friends story has also occurred countless times in Canada as well. Also occurred in Britain, Continental Europe, and probably other places.

For those that don't speak Viceneese, I'll translate into English: "I don't like what the facts say, so I will manufacture my own reality and support it by an poignant, heart warming anecdote in the vain hope that people will be swayed by their emotions and ignore my childish ramblings."

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: yllus
I think that many forget that the United States does not promise a comfortable standard of living to anyone. It merely promises opportunity, of which I can assure all of you the U.S. has in spades in relative to the rest of the world. I had dinner with a (very attractive) PhD economics student last night during which we discussed some things relevant to her thesis: The varying levels of opportunity in some parts of the Western world as opposed to others.

Your beliefs are contradicted by reality - amongst the western world the US is in fact quite the opposite of the land of opportunity. Of course, when I speak of opportunity I mean real, measurable opportunity and how it affects the population as a whole, not the opportunity you speak of, which (judging from your soliloquy about SV) has more in common with the opportunity the lottery offers.

Let me sum up the figures: if you're born in a lower class in the US, your chances of ending up in a different class are much lower than in other countries, Canada amongst them.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collectio...SuttonTrust_report.htm

Which explains why so many immigrants come to the US and become successful, right?

One of my best friends is an Iranian immigrant who came to US less than 10 years ago and today makes a comfortable 6-figure income with (of all things) his own paintless dent repair business.
Most of my high-end clientele are immigrants who came to the US with little to nothing and found success.

So I'll take that reality over your typical googled biased link crap any day of the week, okay?

The Study shows that Upward Mobility is better in places. Not that it exists in some and not in others.

Your Iranian friends story has also occurred countless times in Canada as well. Also occurred in Britain, Continental Europe, and probably other places.

For those that don't speak Viceneese, I'll translate into English: "I don't like what the facts say, so I will manufacture my own reality and support it by an poignant, heart warming anecdote in the vain hope that people will be swayed by their emotions and ignore my childish ramblings."

Oh give us all a break. I could hastily google up 10 other studies showing the exact opposite conclusion. I'm just not going insult even the P&N'ers by doing so. Hell, I bet if I googled hard enough I could find a study or blog or something showing that smoking is actually GOOD for you. Or (your favorite subject) a thousand "studies" saying that Young Earth Creationism and a literal interpretation of the Bible are the scientific truth.
So please... give your nationalism a rest. For once.

 

[jackace]

Most success stories in the US come from starting your own business. The people who work a job for a living are the ones who suffer in our current system. It's the US workers that do the day-to-day labor for the large corporations that are not seeing any of this "American Dream." The introduction of globalization and the American worker having to compete with workers making 1/4 or less the income of the American worker are being squeezed. Those workers are not seeing real increases in their income or way of life. Those workers are actually seeing less real income because of inflation and increased cost of goods and services.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: yllus
I think that many forget that the United States does not promise a comfortable standard of living to anyone. It merely promises opportunity, of which I can assure all of you the U.S. has in spades in relative to the rest of the world. I had dinner with a (very attractive) PhD economics student last night during which we discussed some things relevant to her thesis: The varying levels of opportunity in some parts of the Western world as opposed to others.

Your beliefs are contradicted by reality - amongst the western world the US is in fact quite the opposite of the land of opportunity. Of course, when I speak of opportunity I mean real, measurable opportunity and how it affects the population as a whole, not the opportunity you speak of, which (judging from your soliloquy about SV) has more in common with the opportunity the lottery offers.

Let me sum up the figures: if you're born in a lower class in the US, your chances of ending up in a different class are much lower than in other countries, Canada amongst them.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collectio...SuttonTrust_report.htm

Which explains why so many immigrants come to the US and become successful, right?

One of my best friends is an Iranian immigrant who came to US less than 10 years ago and today makes a comfortable 6-figure income with (of all things) his own paintless dent repair business.
Most of my high-end clientele are immigrants who came to the US with little to nothing and found success.

So I'll take that reality over your typical googled biased link crap any day of the week, okay?

The Study shows that Upward Mobility is better in places. Not that it exists in some and not in others.

Your Iranian friends story has also occurred countless times in Canada as well. Also occurred in Britain, Continental Europe, and probably other places.

For those that don't speak Viceneese, I'll translate into English: "I don't like what the facts say, so I will manufacture my own reality and support it by an poignant, heart warming anecdote in the vain hope that people will be swayed by their emotions and ignore my childish ramblings."

Oh give us all a break. I could hastily google up 10 other studies showing the exact opposite conclusion. I'm just not going insult even the P&N'ers by doing so. Hell, I bet if I googled hard enough I could find a study or blog or something showing that smoking is actually GOOD for you. Or (your favorite subject) a thousand "studies" saying that Young Earth Creationism and a literal interpretation of the Bible are the scientific truth.
So please... give your nationalism a rest. For once.

You can show me random shit from blogs, but you can't show me data that backs up your views simply because it doesn't exist. This isn't a a revelation to many people, as many publications (NY Times, Economisthave been writing about the lack of social mobility.

It's not like there's some great mystery about it either - the quality of american primary and high schools varies greatly based on how rich of an area they're in, so kids from the lower classes are never given the same opportunity as those from the upper ones. In countries with higher social mobility, a kid can get a quality education regardless of how rich his parents are.

Funny that you'd bring up the creationists, as your mindset is identical to theirs - you don't like an idea so you construct an alternative based on anecdotes. Lines like "I haven't seen a monkey turn into a human" and "only god could have created something so grand" are pretty common. So don't expect anyone to take your views any more seriously they they would a creationist's.

 

[Vic]

Oh great, now random straw men from the guy who posts things like "New study shows 1 in a thousand Americans still believe in a flat earth, America sucks!!"

When will you figure out that that is what makes America great? When you post these things, you're really complaining about America becoming more like your country. Less diverse, less opportunity. So it doesn't hold a lot of water with me. (Did you even bother to read that Economist article you linked?).
As for views, that's something you believe in. I'm an extreme skeptic. The only thing I believe in is people.
I will agree that America does harbor one last form of bigotry and discrimination that impedes opportunity, one that is not likely to go away soon, and which goes along completely with your studies. We hate ugly people. It's unfortunately true that ugly is like the unspoken new black in America. So when you said "if you're born in a lower class in the US, your chances of ending up in a different class are much lower," there you go. But I've brought this up before here and no one seems to care that the lower classes in the US are not "the beautiful people." Or that such a factor is decidedly genetic.

Regardless, this is not the topic here. The question is: do you believe that an economic collapse will bring about socialist reforms? And, by socialist, I mean in the Chomsky kind of way of economic equality. My answer is no, economic downturns reinforce social/moral conservatism (i.e., "such-and-such ethnic/lifestyle group is responsible for our woes") and economic fascism (the rich get to go bargain hunting and thus reinforce their own power structure). It appears to me that many people believe otherwise (20 of them by this count, 37.74% of the poll), and at the same time more that a few of those hold socialist utopist views that would lead them to actually want to force an economic downturn (in quasi-Marxist fashion) in order to bring about their little ideology (see sig, although I know that's a more extreme and trollish example).

It has not eluded me here that you have avoided answering this question.


edited for typos

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Vic
Oh great, now random straw men from the guy who posts things like "New study shows 1 in a thousand Americans still believe in a flat earth, America sucks!!"

When will you figure out that that is what makes America great? When you post these things, you're really complaining about America becoming more like your country. Less diverse, less opportunity. So it doesn't hold a lot of water with me. (Did you even bother to read that Economist article you linked?).
As for views, that's something you believe in. I'm an extreme skeptic. The only thing I believe in is people.
I will agree that America does harbor one last form of bigotry and discrimination that impedes opportunity, one that is not likely to go away soon, and which goes along completely with your studies. We hate ugly people. It's unfortunately true that ugly is like the unspoken new black in America. So when you said "if you're born in a lower class in the US, your chances of ending up in a different class are much lower," there you go. But I've brought this up before here and no one seems to care that the lower classes in the US are not "the beautiful people." Or that such a factor is decidedly genetic.

Regardless, this is not the topic here. The question is: do you believe that an economic collapse will bring about socialist reforms? And, by socialist, I mean in the Chomsky kind of way of economic equality. My answer is no, economic downturns reinforce social/moral conservatism (i.e., "such-and-such ethnic/lifestyle group is responsible for our woes") and economic fascism (the rich get to go bargain hunting and thus reinforce their own power structure). It appears to me that many people believe otherwise (20 of them by this count, 37.74% of the poll), and at the same time more that a few of those hold socialist utopist views that would lead them to actually want to force an economic downturn (in quasi-Marxist fashion) in order to bring about their little ideology (see sig, although I know that's a more extreme and trollish example).

It has not eluded me here that you have avoided answering this question.


edited for typos

first, I didn't answer your question or vote in the poll because I'm not interested in it, I just wanted to let Old Sully know his views don't reflect reality very well.

Second, you "believe in people"? I'm afraid the only thing you believe in is a fairy tale ideology backed by nothing but worthless, empty rhetoric. You know what I 'believe' in? Reality. This has a lot of consequences, one of them being that when faced with facts on one hand and empty rants on the other, I go with the facts.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Martin
first, I didn't answer your question or vote in the poll because I'm not interested in it, I just wanted to let Old Sully know his views don't reflect reality very well.

Second, you "believe in people"? I'm afraid the only thing you believe in is a fairy tale ideology backed by nothing but worthless, empty rhetoric. You know what I 'believe' in? Reality. This has a lot of consequences, one of them being that when faced with facts on one hand and empty rants on the other, I go with the facts.

:roll:

And which fairy tale ideology is this that you have assigned for me to supposedly to believe in?

Oh, and do please tell us all about your own little amazing but consequential reality that you believe in, but which apparently is the only reality in the entire universe, that led to this empty rant of yours here.

:laugh:

 

[Blackjack200]

Well, this thread is now just a flame war, but wtf, I'll reply to to OP.

It is very hard to predict what would happen in an economic meltdown. I suppose if the conditions were right, it could lead to socialism. I don't think that socialism would be the inevitable result though, so I voted no. BTW, even though I'm a big believer in socialism and social justice, I wouldn't hope for the meltdown even if I thought that socialism would result. Hoping for revolutions and economic meltdowns to force social change is cynical and lazy. (And Marxist)

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin
first, I didn't answer your question or vote in the poll because I'm not interested in it, I just wanted to let Old Sully know his views don't reflect reality very well.

Second, you "believe in people"? I'm afraid the only thing you believe in is a fairy tale ideology backed by nothing but worthless, empty rhetoric. You know what I 'believe' in? Reality. This has a lot of consequences, one of them being that when faced with facts on one hand and empty rants on the other, I go with the facts.

:roll:

And which fairy tale ideology is this that you have assigned for me to supposedly to believe in?

Oh, and do please tell us all about your own little amazing but consequential reality that you believe in, but which apparently is the only reality in the entire universe, that led to this empty rant of yours here.

:laugh:

Martin's gone a little weird in recent years. Very bitter, very elitist outlook on people. He'll pop into threads pretty much just to tell people how stupid they are for not conforming to the reality he sees. Seems to be on the lookout for solely these opportunities with little care as to the actual thread topic. For some reason he likes to come after me in particular, probably because we started off similarly but I haven't turned a big douche like he has. I probably just got laid a whole lot more.

Anyways. My point wasn't really to compare Average Joe Canadian and Average Joe Yankee as much as to point out that opportunity in the West overall is there if you choose to take a stab at making something of it - despite the words of the McOwen Littles of the Internet.

On top of that, I would think that the peak of opportunities that one might experience in Canada differs from those in the U.S. and that this would be fairly indisputable. For example, I'm simply not going to get the amount of venture capitalist attention here in Toronto that I could get in Silicon Valley - period. So while my company and, say, Myspace may start up at the same time with comparable technology, the access to talent, funding and even sheer industry word of mouth they'll get is going to outweigh what I can get rather heavily. It makes a huge difference. At my company we get reminded of this all of the time when we go to industry conferences.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
Well, this thread is now just a flame war, but wtf, I'll reply to to OP.

It is very hard to predict what would happen in an economic meltdown. I suppose if the conditions were right, it could lead to socialism. I don't think that socialism would be the inevitable result though, so I voted no. BTW, even though I'm a big believer in socialism and social justice, I wouldn't hope for the meltdown even if I thought that socialism would result. Hoping for revolutions and economic meltdowns to force social change is cynical and lazy. (And Marxist)

A fair and honest response. Thank you.

 

[jackace]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin
first, I didn't answer your question or vote in the poll because I'm not interested in it, I just wanted to let Old Sully know his views don't reflect reality very well.

Second, you "believe in people"? I'm afraid the only thing you believe in is a fairy tale ideology backed by nothing but worthless, empty rhetoric. You know what I 'believe' in? Reality. This has a lot of consequences, one of them being that when faced with facts on one hand and empty rants on the other, I go with the facts.

:roll:

And which fairy tale ideology is this that you have assigned for me to supposedly to believe in?

Oh, and do please tell us all about your own little amazing but consequential reality that you believe in, but which apparently is the only reality in the entire universe, that led to this empty rant of yours here.

:laugh:

Martin's gone a little weird in recent years. Very bitter, very elitist outlook on people. He'll pop into threads pretty much just to tell people how stupid they are for not conforming to the reality he sees. Seems to be on the lookout for solely these opportunities with little care as to the actual thread topic. For some reason he likes to come after me in particular, probably because we started off similarly but I haven't turned a big douche like he has. I probably just got laid a whole lot more.

Anyways. My point wasn't really to compare Average Joe Canadian and Average Joe Yankee as much as to point out that opportunity in the West overall is there if you choose to take a stab at making something of it - despite the words of the McOwen Littles of the Internet.

On top of that, I would think that the peak of opportunities that one might experience in Canada differs from those in the U.S. and that this would be fairly indisputable. For example, I'm simply not going to get the amount of venture capitalist attention here in Toronto that I could get in Silicon Valley - period. So while my company and, say, Myspace may start up at the same time with comparable technology, the access to talent, funding and even sheer industry word of mouth they'll get is going to outweigh what I can get rather heavily. It makes a huge difference. At my company we get reminded of this all of the time when we go to industry conferences.

I would have to agree with you on the fact that the West does offer more opportunity then other places in the world. The opportunity you are referring to though is starting your own business. If starting your own business is what you are working towards and what you want then the West is definitely a good place to be, but if you are an average American working an average job you are not seeing any of the economic growth of the country hit your pocket book or way of life. This is the reason the average American does not agree with you. (a business owner)

This is also the reason you see the average American's voting for more and more socialist programs. Business owners (corporate America) are taking away benefits and reducing overall compensations of the average American so the average American is using the government (voting) to tax the people who are making the money (business owners) in order to maintain the way of life of the average American. It's one of the beauties of a democracy. The problem I see though is as corporate America gets cheaper and cheaper with compensations and benefits, laws become more and more socialized. If we continue on this path we will ruin the very opportunity that this country offers to people. This cycle can not be blamed on the average American though. It all started with corporate America reducing benefits and compensations and has increased even more as globalization has resulted in more and more GOOD jobs being lost and replaced with BAD jobs.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: jackace

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin
first, I didn't answer your question or vote in the poll because I'm not interested in it, I just wanted to let Old Sully know his views don't reflect reality very well.

Second, you "believe in people"? I'm afraid the only thing you believe in is a fairy tale ideology backed by nothing but worthless, empty rhetoric. You know what I 'believe' in? Reality. This has a lot of consequences, one of them being that when faced with facts on one hand and empty rants on the other, I go with the facts.

:roll:

And which fairy tale ideology is this that you have assigned for me to supposedly to believe in?

Oh, and do please tell us all about your own little amazing but consequential reality that you believe in, but which apparently is the only reality in the entire universe, that led to this empty rant of yours here.

:laugh:

Martin's gone a little weird in recent years. Very bitter, very elitist outlook on people. He'll pop into threads pretty much just to tell people how stupid they are for not conforming to the reality he sees. Seems to be on the lookout for solely these opportunities with little care as to the actual thread topic. For some reason he likes to come after me in particular, probably because we started off similarly but I haven't turned a big douche like he has. I probably just got laid a whole lot more.

Anyways. My point wasn't really to compare Average Joe Canadian and Average Joe Yankee as much as to point out that opportunity in the West overall is there if you choose to take a stab at making something of it - despite the words of the McOwen Littles of the Internet.

On top of that, I would think that the peak of opportunities that one might experience in Canada differs from those in the U.S. and that this would be fairly indisputable. For example, I'm simply not going to get the amount of venture capitalist attention here in Toronto that I could get in Silicon Valley - period. So while my company and, say, Myspace may start up at the same time with comparable technology, the access to talent, funding and even sheer industry word of mouth they'll get is going to outweigh what I can get rather heavily. It makes a huge difference. At my company we get reminded of this all of the time when we go to industry conferences.

I would have to agree with you on the fact that the West does offer more opportunity then other places in the world. The opportunity you are referring to though is starting your own business. If starting your own business is what you are working towards and what you want then the West is definitely a good place to be, but if you are an average American working an average job you are not seeing any of the economic growth of the country hit your pocket book or way of life. This is the reason the average American does not agree with you. (a business owner)

This is also the reason you see the average American's voting for more and more socialist programs. Business owners (corporate America) are taking away benefits and reducing overall compensations of the average American so the average American is using the government (voting) to tax the people who are making the money (business owners) in order to maintain the way of life of the average American. It's one of the beauties of a democracy. The problem I see though is as corporate America gets cheaper and cheaper with compensations and benefits, laws become more and more socialized. If we continue on this path we will ruin the very opportunity that this country offers to people. This cycle can not be blamed on the average American though. It all started with corporate America reducing benefits and compensations and has increased even more as globalization has resulted in more and more GOOD jobs being lost and replaced with BAD jobs.

more emotional arguments.so if the west is the best for business people then WHERE is the best for the average working class american?Mars?and what keeps the average joe fron starting his business?

 

[jackace]

How is that emotional? The statistics show that the average American today makes less than the average American made 30 years ago. (after adjusted for inflation) It also shows that basic goods (food, clothing, housing, etc) cost more as a percentage of income then they did 30 years ago. These stats have been discussed and numerous links have been posted in this very forum in the last few months.

The average worker in most European countries has a higher standard of living then the average American worker. They have more real income, more vacation time, more rights, better health care, etc.

I am actually one of those people who wants to start my own business, but I have also done my fair share of working crappy jobs for low pay and little or no benefits. I have went without health insurance for over a year, because I could not afford to pay rent and health insurance premiums.

Edit- Where I used average I actually meant median income. Average no longer means much in this country because of the huge gap between middle class and the rich. When people like Opera make $260 million a year it takes a TON of $7/hr jobs to bring that average down.

Edit 2- You do realize that not everyone is cut out to start a business right? Not only that but the statistics from my Entrepreneurship classes say that 60-70% of all businesses fail in the first 3 years. What do those people who fail end up doing? Thats right working a job, atleast until they can get things organized to try a new business.

An average joe can start a business, but our economic structure can not support every average joe being a business owner. In fact the majority of the people can not be supported owning a business. The majority of people in this country will have to be an employees.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: jackace
How is that emotional? The statistics show that the average American today makes less than the average American made 30 years ago. (after adjusted for inflation) It also shows that basic goods (food, clothing, housing, etc) cost more as a percentage of income then they did 30 years ago. These stats have been discussed and numerous links have been posted in this very forum in the last few months.

The average worker in most European countries has a higher standard of living then the average American worker. They have more real income, more vacation time, more rights, better health care, etc.

I am actually one of those people who wants to start my own business, but I have also done my fair share of working crappy jobs for low pay and little or no benefits. I have went without health insurance for over a year, because I could not afford to pay rent and health insurance premiums.

you describe problems but offer no solutions;nobody can stop globalization,and your description of european countries sounds like grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: jackace

Edit- Where I used average I actually meant median income. Average no longer means much in this country because of the huge gap between middle class and the rich. When people like Opera make $260 million a year it takes a TON of $7/hr jobs to bring that average down.

Edit 2- You do realize that not everyone is cut out to start a business right? Not only that but the statistics from my Entrepreneurship classes say that 60-70% of all businesses fail in the first 3 years. What do those people who fail end up doing? Thats right working a job, atleast until they can get things organized to try a new business.

An average joe can start a business, but our economic structure can not support every average joe being a business owner. In fact the majority of the people can not be supported owning a business. The majority of people in this country will have to be an employees.

people are unequal in their abilities,and life is uncertain.so what?an excellent way to make everyone worse off is to implement equality schemes for "the good of the people".

 

[jackace]

I never said we needed to stop globalization. I just said it has helped to increase the reducing of benefits and compensations.

As for Europe, I do agree they have their problems, but the statistics show that the average worker there has a better standard of living then the average worker here. They also offer a bigger safety net for those who fall on hard times.