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Poll: Canadians! How will you be voting on Nov. 27?
Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
Don't blame me, I voted for me 🙂
First off, i wonder if most of you's that are attacking the Liberals and praising the CA know anything about Stockwell Day? Canada is a very diverse country, with many multi-racial, multilingual, and multi-religious groups. How can a man, that belongs to a fanatical protestant denomination, which believes the Earth is only 6000 years old, that God ONLY loves the 'saved', that Adam and Eve were real people, that humans co-existed with dinosaurs, possibly represent such a multi-national nation like Canada?
And now lets talk about his ideology:
Tax cuts which only benefit the rich.
'Reform' of the universal health care
Reduction of all government service and many other policies that are effectively a return to a primitive, barbaric, and feudal society
Opposes abortion
Separatist
What would that do to Canada? How would the aging baby boom population deal with reduction of government services and his 'reform' of the universal health care system?
And his reduction of government services and policies may be effective in a smaller state with a less complex system, but in a large country as Canada with 30 million people that have depended on that system for so many decades, that will literally turn the clock back 40 years.
He wants to give more power to provinces... what do you think that's going to do? That'll weaken the Federal Government... which would mean what? That the provinces, especially Quebec and BC, can have a REAL possibility of breaking away from Canada.
Stockwell wants to increase the military... specifically, he wants to adopt the US National Defence System... which costs about $60 billion dollars, 6x Canada's entire military budget! That's more than the federal government spends on health, welfare, and education combined.
He wants to use government Challenger jets to ferry back to their countries of origin the estimated 50,000 refugee claimants who arrive here every year without proper identification.
<< Day insisted that a federal cabinet minister be aboard each flight. Government officials calculated Day's plan would mean the purchase of at least 70 new government jets, an additional 40 new cabinet ministers. The new fleet of 18-seat Challenger jets (known affectionately as "Day's Refugee Airline"😉 would be flying day and night seven days a week for all year long just to ferry everybody out of Canada.
At present, refugees claimants who are rejected by Canada are put aboard the next available commercial flight.
Some commercial aircraft hold hundreds of passengers at a time, and no cabinet ministers accompany the rejected refugee claimants. After the laughing stopped Day explained he had just been kidding, and quietly dropped his grand immigration plan.
>>
WAKE UP PEOPLE! Stockwell is a moron! I don't know who i'm voting for yet, but definitely not CA. I would have went with Liberal if Paul Martin was leading, but i'm sick of Chretien. I'll probably end up voting for PC, not because i endorse them, but because i'll rather have them as the opposition than CA.
The only real comfort i have is that there is no way CA can without the support of at least 2 of the other parties... which would never happen. Liberals are at 45%, CA are at 24%, NDP 11%, PCs 10%, BQ 10%.
And now lets talk about his ideology:
Tax cuts which only benefit the rich.
'Reform' of the universal health care
Reduction of all government service and many other policies that are effectively a return to a primitive, barbaric, and feudal society
Opposes abortion
Separatist
What would that do to Canada? How would the aging baby boom population deal with reduction of government services and his 'reform' of the universal health care system?
And his reduction of government services and policies may be effective in a smaller state with a less complex system, but in a large country as Canada with 30 million people that have depended on that system for so many decades, that will literally turn the clock back 40 years.
He wants to give more power to provinces... what do you think that's going to do? That'll weaken the Federal Government... which would mean what? That the provinces, especially Quebec and BC, can have a REAL possibility of breaking away from Canada.
Stockwell wants to increase the military... specifically, he wants to adopt the US National Defence System... which costs about $60 billion dollars, 6x Canada's entire military budget! That's more than the federal government spends on health, welfare, and education combined.
He wants to use government Challenger jets to ferry back to their countries of origin the estimated 50,000 refugee claimants who arrive here every year without proper identification.
<< Day insisted that a federal cabinet minister be aboard each flight. Government officials calculated Day's plan would mean the purchase of at least 70 new government jets, an additional 40 new cabinet ministers. The new fleet of 18-seat Challenger jets (known affectionately as "Day's Refugee Airline"😉 would be flying day and night seven days a week for all year long just to ferry everybody out of Canada.
At present, refugees claimants who are rejected by Canada are put aboard the next available commercial flight.
Some commercial aircraft hold hundreds of passengers at a time, and no cabinet ministers accompany the rejected refugee claimants. After the laughing stopped Day explained he had just been kidding, and quietly dropped his grand immigration plan.
>>
WAKE UP PEOPLE! Stockwell is a moron! I don't know who i'm voting for yet, but definitely not CA. I would have went with Liberal if Paul Martin was leading, but i'm sick of Chretien. I'll probably end up voting for PC, not because i endorse them, but because i'll rather have them as the opposition than CA.
The only real comfort i have is that there is no way CA can without the support of at least 2 of the other parties... which would never happen. Liberals are at 45%, CA are at 24%, NDP 11%, PCs 10%, BQ 10%.
StageLeft
No Lifer
moralpanic
Under day Canada would be different...some for the worse, and in some ways better. I think its wrong of him to try and put his morals on the rest of the nation to such a degree. His tax cuts are not only for the rich, however. A low income family would get major tax cuts as well.
If I had to vote today? Probabaly PC. NDP seems too damn whiney to me 🙂 Who knows what I'll think tomorrow though.
Under day Canada would be different...some for the worse, and in some ways better. I think its wrong of him to try and put his morals on the rest of the nation to such a degree. His tax cuts are not only for the rich, however. A low income family would get major tax cuts as well.
If I had to vote today? Probabaly PC. NDP seems too damn whiney to me 🙂 Who knows what I'll think tomorrow though.
Lets see.
Most leaders have some Religious bent to them in fact most are Roman Catholics which means by your reasoning as soon as they ascend into power we would eliminate abortions/birthcontrol and recind divorces nationwide according to Roman Catholic doctrine?
I'm for a larger military in case you haven't been noticing the earth is getting more dangerous not less. We as a nation spend less than half of any of the G7 countries GDP on military and wonder why we don't get the respect we used to? When we can't even meet our foreign peace keeping obligations under the UN?
I haven't heard much about this immigration AirForce but if it were true don't you think it might actually get some press? Sounds like you have read one to many phamplets.
The reason the west is for more control of our destinies is cause the Feds are trying to run too much from too far away and like I said before they don't represent anybody East of the Manitoba /Ont border.
If they spent our Tax dollars on anything other than benefit to Ontario they actually might get support out here.
Sorry big Gov't doesn't play well to us.
Granted, Day is a little out there and they would have been better suited to have lacklustre Preston in there but the reason they continue to do well is cause the Liberals are failing so badly in Western Policies.
Most leaders have some Religious bent to them in fact most are Roman Catholics which means by your reasoning as soon as they ascend into power we would eliminate abortions/birthcontrol and recind divorces nationwide according to Roman Catholic doctrine?
I'm for a larger military in case you haven't been noticing the earth is getting more dangerous not less. We as a nation spend less than half of any of the G7 countries GDP on military and wonder why we don't get the respect we used to? When we can't even meet our foreign peace keeping obligations under the UN?
I haven't heard much about this immigration AirForce but if it were true don't you think it might actually get some press? Sounds like you have read one to many phamplets.
The reason the west is for more control of our destinies is cause the Feds are trying to run too much from too far away and like I said before they don't represent anybody East of the Manitoba /Ont border.
If they spent our Tax dollars on anything other than benefit to Ontario they actually might get support out here.
Sorry big Gov't doesn't play well to us.
Granted, Day is a little out there and they would have been better suited to have lacklustre Preston in there but the reason they continue to do well is cause the Liberals are failing so badly in Western Policies.
Eug
Lifer
I am a Westerner by upbringing, born and raised in Regina, Saskatchewan (North of North Dakota for the Americans in the group) and attended some of my university classes there. I've also lived in North Vancouver, BC as well as Montreal and now Toronto. What always struck me as odd is that so many Westerners hate Ontario and Quebec, whether or not they've been here. It's strange, but when I got a job in Toronto and said I was moving here, I got serious statements of condolesces from people, sorry that I had to move to such a terrible place. When I asked if they had ever visited Toronto, some said they hadn't because they "hear" it's obnoxious out here. However, most of my Vancouver friends who visit me out here actually love the place. A little too hectic and urban for some, but definite a nice place to be for a visit (aside from the complete lack of good ski mountains :|). OTOH, in general, Torontonians have no disrespect for Vancouverites. What's the deal here? 😕 So I don't think necessarily Ontarians and Quebecers don't understand the West (although it is true in a lot of instances), but that just like us Torontonians the West is far too wrapped up in itself sometimes. [flame suit on] Personally, the attitude shared by some BC'ers and Albertans that Quebec should just leave, I find irritating and juvenile.
Would I ever vote for the CA? I dunno but probably not. I am a Westerner, but also a visible minority. I can't say much about the CA, but one of its parents, the Reform party seriously frightened me. I have heard many less than sensitive statements from Reform party members which I find intolerable. Now, individual members do not represent the party, but I found some of the not-so-blatantly racist remarks reminiscent of Pat Buchanan's attitudes (for you American readers), and I am worried some of that still persists within the party. It is foolish to equate the CA with Reform, and when I heard the comments from (Liberal) Immigration Minister Elinor Caplan, lambasting the CA on race issues, I felt the remarks were completely out of line. However, Betty Granger's remarks (she's a CA candidate in Lloyd Axworthy's old riding no less) about the "Asian Invasion", and the fact that she is considering not resigning over them does send a chill down my spine. There are issues with immigration policies that do deserve to be discussed, but it's clear she did not understand them yet was willing to make blanket statements about this contentious issue. We don't need people like this in power.
I still consider the CA a regional party, born partially out of Western provinces not wanting to deal with the Liberals and PCs, and a party without a full grasp of national issues. Perhaps after a few years when the party begins to mature, my attitudes will change, but this is how I stand today. It's too bad too, since I see many potentially good people in CA, but they are tarnished by the actions and statements of people like Betty Granger.
Would I ever vote for the CA? I dunno but probably not. I am a Westerner, but also a visible minority. I can't say much about the CA, but one of its parents, the Reform party seriously frightened me. I have heard many less than sensitive statements from Reform party members which I find intolerable. Now, individual members do not represent the party, but I found some of the not-so-blatantly racist remarks reminiscent of Pat Buchanan's attitudes (for you American readers), and I am worried some of that still persists within the party. It is foolish to equate the CA with Reform, and when I heard the comments from (Liberal) Immigration Minister Elinor Caplan, lambasting the CA on race issues, I felt the remarks were completely out of line. However, Betty Granger's remarks (she's a CA candidate in Lloyd Axworthy's old riding no less) about the "Asian Invasion", and the fact that she is considering not resigning over them does send a chill down my spine. There are issues with immigration policies that do deserve to be discussed, but it's clear she did not understand them yet was willing to make blanket statements about this contentious issue. We don't need people like this in power.
I still consider the CA a regional party, born partially out of Western provinces not wanting to deal with the Liberals and PCs, and a party without a full grasp of national issues. Perhaps after a few years when the party begins to mature, my attitudes will change, but this is how I stand today. It's too bad too, since I see many potentially good people in CA, but they are tarnished by the actions and statements of people like Betty Granger.
What do people expect the government to do in order to stop
the brain drain? It has little do with taxes and legislation,
and a lot more to do with opportunity. People with
high aspirations find the job they're looking for in Toronto,
Vancouver or Montreal... or they leave.
I'm an art director doing web and graphic design work in London
and I'm tired of working at the "mickey mouse" marketing companies
that exist here. I want to work at a truly professional marketing
firm with other talented artists and high profile clients. If I
want to remain in Canada, I really only have two options: move to
Toronto or Vancouver. Meanwhile, I can easily think of a dozen
cities in the U.S. where I could easily find such employment.
Is that the Canadian government's fault?
I don't think so. Opportunity has a lot more to do with population
and economy size, neither of which the government has much control
over. We only have 30 million people in this country. California
has 33 million people. If Canada had 300 million people and dozens
of cities with a million or more people very few of us would leave,
even with the higher taxes, because high-end jobs would be widely
available in almost every industry. Americans bitch and complain
about overtaxation as much as we do, but few would ever leave
because the job opportunities elsewhere would most likely suck in
comparison.
The second problem effecting opportunity in this country is the
fact that most "big businesses" are foreign-owned. If you're
only aiming for middle management and a steady paycheck this
isn't a problem. However, if you have higher aspirations and
want an important role in a major company your career ladder is
headed towards the U.S., Europe or Japan.
I did some web design work for a Canadian division of a major
multi-national corporation and the Canadian president couldn't
approve something as minor as slight re-design of the Canadian
web site without the expressed consent and direction from several
low-level executives in the U.S.. I was suprised by how little
control the Canadian president and upper management had over
their own operation.
Anyways, lower taxes would be great, but they won't bring any
major marketing firms to London. London's population tripling
from 410,000 to 1,230,000 on the other hand would either bring
them, or create them.
the brain drain? It has little do with taxes and legislation,
and a lot more to do with opportunity. People with
high aspirations find the job they're looking for in Toronto,
Vancouver or Montreal... or they leave.
I'm an art director doing web and graphic design work in London
and I'm tired of working at the "mickey mouse" marketing companies
that exist here. I want to work at a truly professional marketing
firm with other talented artists and high profile clients. If I
want to remain in Canada, I really only have two options: move to
Toronto or Vancouver. Meanwhile, I can easily think of a dozen
cities in the U.S. where I could easily find such employment.
Is that the Canadian government's fault?
I don't think so. Opportunity has a lot more to do with population
and economy size, neither of which the government has much control
over. We only have 30 million people in this country. California
has 33 million people. If Canada had 300 million people and dozens
of cities with a million or more people very few of us would leave,
even with the higher taxes, because high-end jobs would be widely
available in almost every industry. Americans bitch and complain
about overtaxation as much as we do, but few would ever leave
because the job opportunities elsewhere would most likely suck in
comparison.
The second problem effecting opportunity in this country is the
fact that most "big businesses" are foreign-owned. If you're
only aiming for middle management and a steady paycheck this
isn't a problem. However, if you have higher aspirations and
want an important role in a major company your career ladder is
headed towards the U.S., Europe or Japan.
I did some web design work for a Canadian division of a major
multi-national corporation and the Canadian president couldn't
approve something as minor as slight re-design of the Canadian
web site without the expressed consent and direction from several
low-level executives in the U.S.. I was suprised by how little
control the Canadian president and upper management had over
their own operation.
Anyways, lower taxes would be great, but they won't bring any
major marketing firms to London. London's population tripling
from 410,000 to 1,230,000 on the other hand would either bring
them, or create them.
First something which I never thought I would do... defend the Alliance. The Alliance's fiscal plan is not just for the rich, it is a very aggressive tax cutting proposal(which we probably can't afford without going back into deficit) which would see all Canadians pay lower taxes(except the very poor who don't pay any taxes now). However, the idea is poorly thought out. At their convention a few months ago, they endorsed a flat tax of 17% only to back off and keep a 25% tax bracket. Proposals to scrap the GST were raised only to have them back off once again. Its not at all clear that the Alliance has a coherent platform. Their whole campaign is based on image... of Stockwell jetskiing.
The fact of the matter is on fiscal policy the liberals(thanks to Martin) have done a good job. The took a $42 bil deficit left by the Tories and are now running a sizeable surplus(over $10 bil this year). They will continue to pay down the debt at over $10 bil a year while providing very sizeable tax cuts(probably a too big since it may end p overheating the economy). Martin has never missed a fiscal target and I have the utmost confidence in him. Now only if he were Prime Minister...
The fact of the matter is on fiscal policy the liberals(thanks to Martin) have done a good job. The took a $42 bil deficit left by the Tories and are now running a sizeable surplus(over $10 bil this year). They will continue to pay down the debt at over $10 bil a year while providing very sizeable tax cuts(probably a too big since it may end p overheating the economy). Martin has never missed a fiscal target and I have the utmost confidence in him. Now only if he were Prime Minister...
Blackhawk2
Please learn to read properly as you're doing a horrible job of interpreting plain English😉 It is quite obvious that Ontario and Quebec hold the vast majority of power needed to win a government. I was not saying that this was right or wrong - in fact I didn't say anything to that effect. I pointed out just that it would be in the CA's best interest to let Quebec leave so that the remaining provinces gained extra power with the absence of Quebec's seats. Ontario is not a CA stronghold, but other provinces are. Other province might gain the leftover seats from Quebec and thus be able to determine the government without having to have vast support in Ontario for their choice of prime minister. Obviously, there would be less seats and negotiations could go on to see if more seats should be allocated to other provinces, and if so, how to allocate these seats.
-GL
Please learn to read properly as you're doing a horrible job of interpreting plain English😉 It is quite obvious that Ontario and Quebec hold the vast majority of power needed to win a government. I was not saying that this was right or wrong - in fact I didn't say anything to that effect. I pointed out just that it would be in the CA's best interest to let Quebec leave so that the remaining provinces gained extra power with the absence of Quebec's seats. Ontario is not a CA stronghold, but other provinces are. Other province might gain the leftover seats from Quebec and thus be able to determine the government without having to have vast support in Ontario for their choice of prime minister. Obviously, there would be less seats and negotiations could go on to see if more seats should be allocated to other provinces, and if so, how to allocate these seats.
-GL
Two opinions virtually void of economics or history.
One describes "feelings" of East/West in a narrow niche and the other descibes "jobs" in the narrow field of graphic web design.
Bettys comments, phrased poorly, do reflect the opinion of many Canadians that they don't want uneducated refugees with no documents stating who they are or what crimes they may have commited abroad in.
It just so happens that it is Asians currently who are trying to jump the line and not go through proper immigration channels. This is no different than Mexicans at the border in Texas.
I think all the parties actually support MORE immigration of anybody and if you looked at the Statistics Canada race makeup of who is actually allowed to immigrate into Canada it is overwhelmingly Asians.
Long before the Liberals got in.
Westerners have nothing against Eastoners just the incredbly poor policies shaping our future.
One simple example, Farmers are expected to sell grain to the Canadian Wheat Board and for most it averages the costs out so they on avg get a better return. Federal policy won't let you sell grain to anybody else than the wheat board. Now for 5-10% of farmers along the border they have an economic advantage to cross the border and sell grain in the states for sometimes double of what the wheat boards offers. Nope can't do it and in fact the Federal Gov't sued farmers for taking grain across!! So much for free makret which is what the Feds determined we needed when they took away all the subsidies but nobody else in the world did.
So now what do the Feds do? They build two Ethanol plants in Ontario!!
Lets see the grain is grown here transported to Ont where it is turned into Ethanol with the farmer footing the freight bill and then paying the freight back when we want to use the ethnaol made. Yep pretty efficient to ship raw grain hundreds of miles away.
Its a Liberal policy to buy votes in Ont.
Again we have no bias against the people of Ont/Quebec just how poorly historically the West has been handled by Eastern politics.
One describes "feelings" of East/West in a narrow niche and the other descibes "jobs" in the narrow field of graphic web design.
Bettys comments, phrased poorly, do reflect the opinion of many Canadians that they don't want uneducated refugees with no documents stating who they are or what crimes they may have commited abroad in.
It just so happens that it is Asians currently who are trying to jump the line and not go through proper immigration channels. This is no different than Mexicans at the border in Texas.
I think all the parties actually support MORE immigration of anybody and if you looked at the Statistics Canada race makeup of who is actually allowed to immigrate into Canada it is overwhelmingly Asians.
Long before the Liberals got in.
Westerners have nothing against Eastoners just the incredbly poor policies shaping our future.
One simple example, Farmers are expected to sell grain to the Canadian Wheat Board and for most it averages the costs out so they on avg get a better return. Federal policy won't let you sell grain to anybody else than the wheat board. Now for 5-10% of farmers along the border they have an economic advantage to cross the border and sell grain in the states for sometimes double of what the wheat boards offers. Nope can't do it and in fact the Federal Gov't sued farmers for taking grain across!! So much for free makret which is what the Feds determined we needed when they took away all the subsidies but nobody else in the world did.
So now what do the Feds do? They build two Ethanol plants in Ontario!!
Lets see the grain is grown here transported to Ont where it is turned into Ethanol with the farmer footing the freight bill and then paying the freight back when we want to use the ethnaol made. Yep pretty efficient to ship raw grain hundreds of miles away.
Its a Liberal policy to buy votes in Ont.
Again we have no bias against the people of Ont/Quebec just how poorly historically the West has been handled by Eastern politics.
Eug
Lifer
<< I feel you're pain Eug, Blue Mountain is certainly no Whistler, and
sadly it's not even a Grouse. Hopefully Intrawest will use their
billions to airlift a real mountain to this province. >>
Heheh, since moving here, I quit snowboarding, because I Blue Mountain boooooooorrrrrrrring on a snowboard. However, I've started skiing again for more of a challenge, because I'm a much worse skier. 😛
Edit:
desy,
I agree and disagree with some of your points. Yes the Canadian Wheat Board is antiquated, but if you read the history texts it was actually the Western farmers who pushed for it. It needs to be updated, but that's what some of the Western candidates from many parties may have been pushing for.
As for Ms. Granger, like I said I hope she doesn't represent the party. In truth I don't think she does represent most of the candidates. However, while she may reflect some concerns from some people, her lumping together of large proportions of the population is clearly inappropriate. Day would be smart to push for her resignation, or else the CA will lose many BC votes, because her statements do NOT reflect much of the population. In fact, because of her statements, the CA probably already has lost a bunch of votes. The immigration issues SHOULD be discussed however. I too have concerns with some of them.
<< Again we have no bias against the people of Ont/Quebec. >>
I glad you don't, but unfortunately, you don't represent everyone out West either. It seems to me that many still has this "us vs. them" attitude. When I was in BC, it was US vs. everyone east of Alberta. When I was in Montreal, it was US vs. everyone else in Canada. Now that I'm in Toronto, I still hear lots of anti-Quebec sentiment from some people. I fear that some of the Western-centric parties are borne partially out of this attitude, and I don't think that is a very good platform upon which to build a party. The Western issues NEED to be discussed, but so far I have not seen a solid list of policies from the CA, that would also accomodate the needs of the Maritimes, Quebec, and Ontario, as well as the Northern regions. I think of Canada as a whole, not a group of disenfranchised regions.
P.S. After all that I'll tell you that I tend to vote for party ideals in combination with the candidate. I do not vote on the basis of party policy alone. I will not vote for my party of choice if I feel the candidate in my riding is not up to par. If a candidate in my riding is better than the candidate representing my fave party, I will sometimes vote against my fave party.
Blackhawk2
Senior member
GL, if it was only me complaining about Chretien and the Liberals you would have a point. The fact is the west and Quebec are sick and tired of Chretien and the current government that is in power. Chretien is a corrupt sellout. He gives millions in aid to other countries while cutting back our own health care? WTF. The guy is a loon plain and simple.
Javelin
Will lower income families have to pay less taxes under the Alliance? Yes.
Will they have that extra money in their pockets? No.
Why?
1) Education. Whether they go with vouchers or not, the Alliance will pave the way for provinces to allow, and even promote privately funded universities. In fact, Stockwell's best friend, Mike Harris (whom supported Stock by divulging a Tory voters list to the CA without the voters' permission) has already been lobbied by the University of Phoenix who hired two full-time lobbyists to wine and dine with Harris. He caved...or should I say had his pocket lined in some way...and now Ontario allows privately funded universities who will require the use of publicly funded resources...but people are too short-sighted to realize this.
So the next time lower income families want to send their kids to post-secondary education they better let their kids draw straws and see which one of them gets to go to university.
Not to mention high schools. What's preventing one "public" high school from demanding more money from school vouchers than other schools? Nothing... Let's further water down the quality of education that poor people get!
2) Health Care. Let's give vouchers to people in the order of $2000 a year and charge them for health care. That's a great idea! If they don't use it, they get to keep the money! Again...what the heck happens if you get cancer and the cost of your drugs is hundreds of dollars per month. Never mind whether the American system is better than the Canadian system....now you can't even get anything from the Canadian system.
3) For the sake of argument, let's accept the belief that most lower-income families work in manual labour jobs such as manufacturing and such. The CA's policies will increase the value of the Canadian dollar. Manufacturers will pack up and move to a cheaper place and leave lower-income families with very few jobs. I'll say this once more. While it's embarassing to have such a low Canadian dollar, that's the only damn thing keeping jobs in Canada at this point - especially manufacturing ones. It does open up the opportunity for large multi-nationals to buy up Canadian companies, but guess what? Large multi-nationals are buying up a lot of European companies too, and they use the Euro which isn't that much different than the American dollar. The reasons for large multi-national companies buying up Canadian ones has less to do with the value of our dollar and more to do with the fact they have what seems to be unlimited funding and see good prospects in Canada's economy.
I could go on an on about this, but what's the point? People who vote for the CA (just like people who vote for any other party) have their minds set on a certain vision they think the party can fulfill. But, we're just voters. We aren't economic experts...and even economic experts can be taken with a grain of salt. Canada's economy is extremely complex and no one policy like cutting taxes will affect it in a predictable way. The last thing I want to do though, is vote in Stockwell Day who claims to be a fiscal superstar because he handled Alberta's economy. Well guess what? Alberta's economy doesn't come close to the complexity of Canada's economy as a whole. So his experience is pretty much useless. It's like me claiming to be able to drive on the F1 circuit because I got my Ontario's driving license and 4 years of no-accident experience - ridiculous.
-GL
Will lower income families have to pay less taxes under the Alliance? Yes.
Will they have that extra money in their pockets? No.
Why?
1) Education. Whether they go with vouchers or not, the Alliance will pave the way for provinces to allow, and even promote privately funded universities. In fact, Stockwell's best friend, Mike Harris (whom supported Stock by divulging a Tory voters list to the CA without the voters' permission) has already been lobbied by the University of Phoenix who hired two full-time lobbyists to wine and dine with Harris. He caved...or should I say had his pocket lined in some way...and now Ontario allows privately funded universities who will require the use of publicly funded resources...but people are too short-sighted to realize this.
So the next time lower income families want to send their kids to post-secondary education they better let their kids draw straws and see which one of them gets to go to university.
Not to mention high schools. What's preventing one "public" high school from demanding more money from school vouchers than other schools? Nothing... Let's further water down the quality of education that poor people get!
2) Health Care. Let's give vouchers to people in the order of $2000 a year and charge them for health care. That's a great idea! If they don't use it, they get to keep the money! Again...what the heck happens if you get cancer and the cost of your drugs is hundreds of dollars per month. Never mind whether the American system is better than the Canadian system....now you can't even get anything from the Canadian system.
3) For the sake of argument, let's accept the belief that most lower-income families work in manual labour jobs such as manufacturing and such. The CA's policies will increase the value of the Canadian dollar. Manufacturers will pack up and move to a cheaper place and leave lower-income families with very few jobs. I'll say this once more. While it's embarassing to have such a low Canadian dollar, that's the only damn thing keeping jobs in Canada at this point - especially manufacturing ones. It does open up the opportunity for large multi-nationals to buy up Canadian companies, but guess what? Large multi-nationals are buying up a lot of European companies too, and they use the Euro which isn't that much different than the American dollar. The reasons for large multi-national companies buying up Canadian ones has less to do with the value of our dollar and more to do with the fact they have what seems to be unlimited funding and see good prospects in Canada's economy.
I could go on an on about this, but what's the point? People who vote for the CA (just like people who vote for any other party) have their minds set on a certain vision they think the party can fulfill. But, we're just voters. We aren't economic experts...and even economic experts can be taken with a grain of salt. Canada's economy is extremely complex and no one policy like cutting taxes will affect it in a predictable way. The last thing I want to do though, is vote in Stockwell Day who claims to be a fiscal superstar because he handled Alberta's economy. Well guess what? Alberta's economy doesn't come close to the complexity of Canada's economy as a whole. So his experience is pretty much useless. It's like me claiming to be able to drive on the F1 circuit because I got my Ontario's driving license and 4 years of no-accident experience - ridiculous.
-GL
Blackhawk2
Senior member
Well Chretien has had 8 years to do something about the situation, but he takes expensive vacations with tax payers money, gives away tax payers money to other countries, uses his power to get his friends loans and doesn't listen to any of the premiers from the other provinces. Western Canada and Quebec think its time for a change, but if Ontario is set on always being the "rebel", then I guess no change will come.
One comment on the side here (man I'm talking a lot in this thread).
One thing Canadians need a is a true nation-wide party. Why is it that a bunch of computer nerds with diverse cultural and geographical backgrounds (not to mention probably religious and moral ones), can have constructive and meaningful dialogue about the country. In fact, I haven't seen anyone put anyone else down in this thread like our American counterparts seem to do all to often.
Yet, when it comes to the parties that are supposed to represent us, all we get is inflamatory rhetorric that really does nothing to advance the country's problems towards good solutions. In fact, these parties have pretty much started the inter-Canada rivalries. The Bloc pushes the Quebec vs. Canada rivalry...the Reform/CA pushes the West vs. East rivalry...and the Liberals push the Ottawa vs. everybody else rivalry.
If I ever get into politics I'm going to run on a sole-mandate to overhaul our parliamentary system to more properly reflect modern day Canada. It just does a horrible job in my opinion. I'd like to see a more American-style government with a working Senate and such.
-GL
One thing Canadians need a is a true nation-wide party. Why is it that a bunch of computer nerds with diverse cultural and geographical backgrounds (not to mention probably religious and moral ones), can have constructive and meaningful dialogue about the country. In fact, I haven't seen anyone put anyone else down in this thread like our American counterparts seem to do all to often.
Yet, when it comes to the parties that are supposed to represent us, all we get is inflamatory rhetorric that really does nothing to advance the country's problems towards good solutions. In fact, these parties have pretty much started the inter-Canada rivalries. The Bloc pushes the Quebec vs. Canada rivalry...the Reform/CA pushes the West vs. East rivalry...and the Liberals push the Ottawa vs. everybody else rivalry.
If I ever get into politics I'm going to run on a sole-mandate to overhaul our parliamentary system to more properly reflect modern day Canada. It just does a horrible job in my opinion. I'd like to see a more American-style government with a working Senate and such.
-GL
Graphic design was merely an example that presents a scenario
similar to what many people would be faced with in countless
other professions.
Example #1
If you wanted a good job in film or televsion, where would you
be heading? My guess wouldn't be Regina, Halifax or Quebec City,
or anything city that size or smaller. Again it would be Toronto,
Montreal, Vancouver or the states.
Example #2
If you were an electical engineer who wanted to design computer
hardware where would you be heading? ATi near Toronto or stateside
since IBM Canada, Intel Canada and <INSERT JUST ABOUT ANY HARDWARE
COMPANY NAME HERE> Canada are responsible for nothing more than sales
and distribution.
It should be obvious that the higher you're aiming career-wise, the
less likely it can achieved in Canada. Employees from your local
Foot Locker and Taco Bell aren't leaving Canada, but doctors,
engineers, IT experts and other professionals are leaving. Lower
taxes are an incentive to leave, but superior job opportunities
(not just salary-wise) is why they are leaving.
Even if our taxes dropped to or below U.S. levels, they would still
have better jobs and more opportunity to attract our best.
similar to what many people would be faced with in countless
other professions.
Example #1
If you wanted a good job in film or televsion, where would you
be heading? My guess wouldn't be Regina, Halifax or Quebec City,
or anything city that size or smaller. Again it would be Toronto,
Montreal, Vancouver or the states.
Example #2
If you were an electical engineer who wanted to design computer
hardware where would you be heading? ATi near Toronto or stateside
since IBM Canada, Intel Canada and <INSERT JUST ABOUT ANY HARDWARE
COMPANY NAME HERE> Canada are responsible for nothing more than sales
and distribution.
It should be obvious that the higher you're aiming career-wise, the
less likely it can achieved in Canada. Employees from your local
Foot Locker and Taco Bell aren't leaving Canada, but doctors,
engineers, IT experts and other professionals are leaving. Lower
taxes are an incentive to leave, but superior job opportunities
(not just salary-wise) is why they are leaving.
Even if our taxes dropped to or below U.S. levels, they would still
have better jobs and more opportunity to attract our best.
Good discussion!!
CBW did have a time and place but for an organization that is supposed to be farmer voted and placed its is filled with over 60% Gov't appointees who have no agricultural background.
Again Federal will being imposed, NTM dropping of GRIP and the Crow Rate when no other country dropped any of their agricultural subsidies. They even took away the Federal review every 3years of rail companies to make sure they don't price gouge, and on and on and on.
Farms that have been single samily owned for generations are losing the war of atrician and its not they aren't competative a bushel of wheat in 1920 was $2 today its $2 they have all improved by getting bigger and improving economies of scale but when the rest of the world doesn't play by the rules. . . When is the Gov't gonna stand up at the WTO and say no more?
Its nieve to think that the Federal gov't actually creates the econmy here in Canada its not cause of the Liberals we are doing so well it has a lot more to do with the US south of us who is our 80% trading partner. We are the tail not the dog. There are Engineering jobs
www.sedsystems.com out there and yes even film and media jobs are growing www.saskstar.sk.ca/ccframeset.html
You live where you do cause its a choice if the grass is so much greener get going. . . AAMOF 60% of doctors who have left to the US have returned because of malpractice insurance and of stress. . The brain drain is not as great as you think it is and there have been many articles to dispute that.
I won't be voting alliance not because I don't side with them on many issues but because the representative here has that extra criminal chromosone and like others I try to vote in a good person not a party.
CBW did have a time and place but for an organization that is supposed to be farmer voted and placed its is filled with over 60% Gov't appointees who have no agricultural background.
Again Federal will being imposed, NTM dropping of GRIP and the Crow Rate when no other country dropped any of their agricultural subsidies. They even took away the Federal review every 3years of rail companies to make sure they don't price gouge, and on and on and on.
Farms that have been single samily owned for generations are losing the war of atrician and its not they aren't competative a bushel of wheat in 1920 was $2 today its $2 they have all improved by getting bigger and improving economies of scale but when the rest of the world doesn't play by the rules. . . When is the Gov't gonna stand up at the WTO and say no more?
Its nieve to think that the Federal gov't actually creates the econmy here in Canada its not cause of the Liberals we are doing so well it has a lot more to do with the US south of us who is our 80% trading partner. We are the tail not the dog. There are Engineering jobs
www.sedsystems.com out there and yes even film and media jobs are growing www.saskstar.sk.ca/ccframeset.html
You live where you do cause its a choice if the grass is so much greener get going. . . AAMOF 60% of doctors who have left to the US have returned because of malpractice insurance and of stress. . The brain drain is not as great as you think it is and there have been many articles to dispute that.
I won't be voting alliance not because I don't side with them on many issues but because the representative here has that extra criminal chromosone and like others I try to vote in a good person not a party.
Coming from an overwhelmingly conserative area in the west (I think we have the only PC seat in the province) and with the PC's dead, the Alliance has strong support here. I don't happen to like the Liberals very much, although I will give them credit for the debt reduction, and frankly I agree with Stockwell on quite a few issues. As many of you likely heard about Day's encounter with natives in Brandon, Man. But the general feeling in this area is that we're not going to continue carrying the native people on our back and if we don't cut the subsidies now, when we do it's going to hurt them even more. I'm sorry, but look at the unemployment rates on reverves, most over 70% because their content to sit at home or whatever while we hand them a cheque every month. Time to wake up people, we have many public schools that you could easily attend if you wanted to, many universities, and many, many more jobs that could be filled in this province. You can't segegrate yourselves from the rest of the world forever, and it's hurting both you and the tax payers.
So despite what many of you may have seen on TV, there is alot of support for stock's plan in this area.
So despite what many of you may have seen on TV, there is alot of support for stock's plan in this area.
The more I think about this election, the more it becomes a choice of lesser evils. Chretien does not deserve a 3rd term, he's done a good job as PM but 2 terms is enough, he should retire and play some more golf. If Paul Martin were running the show I would enthusiastically back the Liberals.
As much as I disliked Manning, I must say he looks like rocket scientist compared to Stock. At least Manning was honest, and his arguments were well thought out(although I disagreed with many of them).
The Tories are on their deathbed, the NPD is irrelevant... so Liberal it is with the hope that old man doesn't stick around too much longer.
As much as I disliked Manning, I must say he looks like rocket scientist compared to Stock. At least Manning was honest, and his arguments were well thought out(although I disagreed with many of them).
The Tories are on their deathbed, the NPD is irrelevant... so Liberal it is with the hope that old man doesn't stick around too much longer.
Eug
Lifer
<< The Tories are on their deathbed, the NPD is irrelevant... so Liberal it is with the hope that old man doesn't stick around too much longer. >>
Haven't you heard Chretien's new campaign slogan? "Elect me, and I'll quit!". 😉 Different, but I think he might actually get some votes out of that.
<< Good discussion!! >>
Yes it is. Better than the fart threads 🙂 and definitely better than the "You are a braindead slug because you voted for Shrub/Bore" threads :|. I still like The Onion article which puts all the politician speak in perspective.
<< I won't be voting alliance not because I don't side with them on many issues but because the representative here has that extra criminal chromosone and like others I try to vote in a good person not a party. >>
Heheh.... You realize of course that the "criminal chromosome" is supposed to be the Y chromosome, which most of the posters in this thread have? 😛 It's based on prison studies way back when which apparently found a higher percentage of XYY males in prison than in the general population. The jury is still out on that one though. (We supposedly "normal" males are XY, but many XYY males are "normal" as well.)
<< The brain drain is not as great as you think it is and there have been many articles to dispute that. >>
I agree, but I think it has to do partially with choice of jobs as well. I would suspect that in some ways the brain drain is more of a risk for those in high tech. People with high tech education (eg. computer engineering etc.) are very mobile and can benefit by going to the US because they get to live in places like San Jose and get paid twice as much to do it, while working at the cutting edge of technology. I suspect it's different for a family doctor who may only get a job in Wyoming working for an HMO, would rather live in Vancouver getting paid less and with a higher tax rate. Furthermore, immigration and licensing are very restrictive - medicine is the most heavily regulated profession in North America. It's actually not that easy to leave for some doctors even if they want to, but I betcha if they could they would. However, OTOH, I don't buy if-they-think-the-grass-is-greener-then-let-them-go argument either. Since we heavily subsidize our education system (whether for the computer engineer or the doctor). Every brain that drains down south costs us money. So I think we should definitely try to keep people here. But, I don't think money is the only issue. Lifestyle, work environment, facilities, medicare, insurance, etc. all become important. Simply reducing taxes isn't going to cut it. This is a problem that needs to be addressed at all fronts.
So?
Our immigration policies promote the brain drain of other countries.
The last doctors I've been to are white South Africans.
I know of 2nd generation Asian doctors that were more than happy to take over the family practice.
One of the problems when trying to define a public policy for the nation is the vaste cultural differences in a huge geographically different country. This is why western provinces want more of the transfer payments back, if we screw it up then its our fault not Ottawas. The Federal gov't should get out of a lot of stuff they are involved in and give control back. I want the Gov't to worry about defence, foreign affairs and Economic policy. Not forced gun control and boating laws. These are eastern problems not western ones and should be handled by provincial and municipal gov'ts.
Jean says he like the idea of big Federal gov't guiding the provinces and to give up the money is to give up the control but the only one he seems to care about is Ontario. I work for the Feds and I see the inefficiencies and the advantages but they don't need to be into everything.
Ok he is a criminal for some other reason if it isn't biological.😀
I'd mention him by name but I'm afraid his bad press would taint my arguments by association.
Our immigration policies promote the brain drain of other countries.
The last doctors I've been to are white South Africans.
I know of 2nd generation Asian doctors that were more than happy to take over the family practice.
One of the problems when trying to define a public policy for the nation is the vaste cultural differences in a huge geographically different country. This is why western provinces want more of the transfer payments back, if we screw it up then its our fault not Ottawas. The Federal gov't should get out of a lot of stuff they are involved in and give control back. I want the Gov't to worry about defence, foreign affairs and Economic policy. Not forced gun control and boating laws. These are eastern problems not western ones and should be handled by provincial and municipal gov'ts.
Jean says he like the idea of big Federal gov't guiding the provinces and to give up the money is to give up the control but the only one he seems to care about is Ontario. I work for the Feds and I see the inefficiencies and the advantages but they don't need to be into everything.
Ok he is a criminal for some other reason if it isn't biological.😀
I'd mention him by name but I'm afraid his bad press would taint my arguments by association.
Through general reading here, I got the impression that most people believe that businesses are primarily interested in locating in the large urban centres in Canada, which seemed to mean Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Just thought I'd point out that the city with the most national head-offices in the country is Toronto but the second is actually Calgary. Yes, believe it or not, Calgary. People love to overlook Calgary (but I'm not bitter 🙂) even though it is in the province with the lowest taxes and probably the most thriving economy for the population. I believe the economy of Alberta has surpassed the size of B.C's even though we have a lot fewer people.
Even Moody's is thinking about upgrading Alberta's credit rating so that it is better than that of Canada. Alberta (a province) having a better credit rating than Canada (a country)? That is... ummm... sad from the perspective of Canada. That's like an individual having a better credit rating than a province... doesn't reflect well.
Even Moody's is thinking about upgrading Alberta's credit rating so that it is better than that of Canada. Alberta (a province) having a better credit rating than Canada (a country)? That is... ummm... sad from the perspective of Canada. That's like an individual having a better credit rating than a province... doesn't reflect well.
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