POLL: can you drive stick shift? and if you can...

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Double clutching is an old term made popular by lame movies like the Fast the & Furious. If you see some racerboy claim that he double clutches around town all the time, you know he'a a loser and he really needs something on him to be checked.

For those who don't know, double-clutching was needed on very old manual transmissions without synchros. All modern manual transmissions have synchros eliminating the need for double-clutching.

Most young idiots do it "because its kewl", and then crash their car into a tree.

On a 20 degree morning double-clutching on a Porsche gearbox makes it a whole hell of a lot easier to engage second gear. Of course, the 944 was never known for having a great second-gear synchro and most are pretty weak which causes near-lockout of second gear when the transaxle fluid is cold. Forget about getting into first while in motion without double-clutching.

There is definitely an improvement to be had from double-clutching as far as smoothness of engagement goes for the cars I've driven. And double-clutching a downshift in mid-corner is almost a must unless you want to disrupt the car by jerking it into the next lower gear. Of course, this last assumes that you're on an autocross course.

ZV

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Vic

Think flying off the freeway at 80mph and coming up to a downhill off-ramp stoplight. Brakes on smoothly the whole time while rev-match downshifting, 5->4->3.

That's great if you're a racerboy and don't mind crashing occasionally, but those of us who are more mature save our racing for the track and don't do 80 mph on highway ramps.

 

[MikeMike]

double clutching is also required on large Semi trucks for when down shifting going up hills from what i remember my father telling me.

MIKE

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Vic

Think flying off the freeway at 80mph and coming up to a downhill off-ramp stoplight. Brakes on smoothly the whole time while rev-match downshifting, 5->4->3.

That's great if you're a racerboy and don't mind crashing occasionally, but those of us who are more mature save our racing for the track and don't do 80 mph on highway ramps.

Unless we're late for work... *attempts to look innocent*

ZV

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I never really understood the reason for double clutching. I can heel toe though and I can drive a stick.

Double-clutching is ideal for shifting into 1st while still moving forward.

The reason is to spin up the transmission input shaft between the clutch and the gear so that it matches engine speed prior to gear engagement with the output shaft. Otherwise, without the double-clutch, the input shaft will still be spinning at the output shaft speed regardless of any engine rev-matching you do with the clutch in. So the only way to do rev-match the input shaft is to clutch out and mechanically connect it to the engine, blip throttle rev-match, and then clutch in and shift.
Try it sometime in your STi. When you get it really smooth it will feel like the stick just fell right into the gear missing the synchros entirely.

No, I understand the reason in a non-synchro transmission like some truck transmissions but in a car with synchros it strikes me as completely unecessary. I almost never shift down into first unless I come to a stop light and by then I've usually stopped anyway so it doesn't matter.

Believe me, I've driven manual transmission cars for years and rarely if ever double clutched any of them.

BTW-I've even driven a car without a clutch. My first car was a SAAB 99 and it could be started in gear. I was out at my local mall one day and pressed in the clutch only to find that the clutch cable snapped. I was able to drive the car home by starting it in gear for the times I absolutely had to stop and shifted it by rev matching between gears.

When I downshift I just rev match and let the clutch out.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Goosemaster
vic, why brake?

I jsut rev match perfectly and then apply the brake at the end so that the car does msot of the work.

clutch in, blip throttle, shift, blip again if need be, and then let it engine brake + the brake

Think flying off the freeway at 80mph and coming up to a downhill off-ramp stoplight. Brakes on smoothly the whole time while rev-match downshifting, 5->4->3.

Okay...I really don't do that a lot though....I usually revmatch and downshift anyways and jsut have to brake, out of habit since I drive in such precarious areas.....even if I know the terrain.

<---pos brakes

Ther is this one left turn I take in the morning.....40mph...it is at the crest of a steep hill following a straightaway, banks to the right DURING the turn, so you cannot actually see the road until you are like 1ft from the turn:Q


Basically, if you get to look out to yoru right, you see the stack of wrecked cars and tiremarks..LOL:Q

They really need to fix that...

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
double clutching is also required on large Semi trucks for when down shifting going up hills from what i remember my father telling me.

MIKE

Most semi drivers never use the clutch except to get into first from a stop. Otherwise they shift without it. But yes, semi transmissions are non-synchro.

ZV

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Vic

Think flying off the freeway at 80mph and coming up to a downhill off-ramp stoplight. Brakes on smoothly the whole time while rev-match downshifting, 5->4->3.

That's great if you're a racerboy and don't mind crashing occasionally, but those of us who are more mature save our racing for the track and don't do 80 mph on highway ramps.

:roll:

<- perfect driving record, 33 years old.

I rev-match every downshift. It's part of driving a stick and just as instinctual once you get the hang of it. Properly done, downshifting is no more harmful on your car than upshifting and much safer than just coasting in neutral as you are in proper control of the car at all times.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
On a 20 degree morning double-clutching on a Porsche gearbox makes it a whole hell of a lot easier to engage second gear. Of course, the 944 was never known for having a great second-gear synchro and most are pretty weak which causes near-lockout of second gear when the transaxle fluid is cold. Forget about getting into first while in motion without double-clutching.

There is definitely an improvement to be had from double-clutching as far as smoothness of engagement goes for the cars I've driven. And double-clutching a downshift in mid-corner is almost a must unless you want to disrupt the car by jerking it into the next lower gear. Of course, this last assumes that you're on an autocross course.

ZV

Yeah, I'm sure it has its applications and a skilled pro can make good use of it, but I'm mostly pissed that it seems that every 19 year old kid in his riced out Civic and Volkswagon screech around my corner "being kewl" double clutching/heel-toeing/losing control of his car. As soon as F&F came out, forget about it. It was like a bees nest was kicked.

Heel-toeing + adolescent + car = disaster waiting to happen.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Vic
Yes, I can double-clutch and heel-and-toe.

And your poll is a little skewed. Proper double-clutching requires doing heel-and-toe, while doing a heel-and-toe does not require double-clutching.

Heel-and-toe = using the gas and brake at the same time while clutch in or out of gear in order to blip the throttle and match revs prior to a downshift while braking. This reduces stress on the synchros while enabling for a smoother and faster downshift without upsetting the vehicle balance.

Double-clutch = clutch in, shift to neutral, clutch out, heel-and-toe rev-match, clutch in, downshift, clutch out

You don't NEED to heel-and-toe revmatch when you double-clutch...you could be double-clutching on the upshift (lol), or you could be downshifting without hitting the brake at all.

I only ever bother to double-clutch when I'm doing a HARD downshift...something that will send the car up to 5,000 RPMs or so.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Heel-toeing + adolescent + car = disaster waiting to happen.

Okay. I can agree with that, and have argued the same here in the past. Novice drivers should not pretend they have expert skills.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Vic

Think flying off the freeway at 80mph and coming up to a downhill off-ramp stoplight. Brakes on smoothly the whole time while rev-match downshifting, 5->4->3.

That's great if you're a racerboy and don't mind crashing occasionally, but those of us who are more mature save our racing for the track and don't do 80 mph on highway ramps.

:roll:

<- perfect driving record, 33 years old.

I rev-match every downshift. It's part of driving a stick and just as instinctual once you get the hang of it. Properly done, downshifting is no more harmful on your car than upshifting and much safer than just coasting in neutral as you are in proper control of the car at all times.

aye..some guy thought I would blow my singien doign that.....

<--brakes have lasted for like, ever, and clutch isn't perfect, but for other reasons. Engine braking hasn't doen a thign to my clutch

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
On a 20 degree morning double-clutching on a Porsche gearbox makes it a whole hell of a lot easier to engage second gear. Of course, the 944 was never known for having a great second-gear synchro and most are pretty weak which causes near-lockout of second gear when the transaxle fluid is cold. Forget about getting into first while in motion without double-clutching.

There is definitely an improvement to be had from double-clutching as far as smoothness of engagement goes for the cars I've driven. And double-clutching a downshift in mid-corner is almost a must unless you want to disrupt the car by jerking it into the next lower gear. Of course, this last assumes that you're on an autocross course.

ZV

Yeah, I'm sure it has its applications and a skilled pro can make good use of it, but I'm mostly pissed that it seems that every 19 year old kid in his riced out Civic and Volkswagon screech around my corner "being kewl" double clutching/heel-toeing/losing control of his car. As soon as F&F came out, forget about it. It was like a bees nest was kicked.

Heel-toeing + adolescent + car = disaster waiting to happen.

I learned it out of necessity when I had my 914, and kept it with the 944 on those colder mornings. The 'teener's synchros were completely shot on 1st and 2nd gear but the transmission was good so I just drove it like it was an old crashbox. Man I had a lot of fun with that car.

ZV

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Vic

I rev-match every downshift. It's part of driving a stick and just as instinctual once you get the hang of it. Properly done, downshifting is no more harmful on your car than upshifting and much safer than just coasting in neutral as you are in proper control of the car at all times.

I've been driving stick for 13 years and I never felt the need to heel-toe/double-clutch. The synchros do what they're designed to do and Nissan's transmission + Redline fluid is silky-smooth.

 

[Vich]

I only drive stick however i dont double clutch or heel toe for a regular commute.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Anyway, I answered stick, double clutch & heel-toe.

I can do all three, I just choose not to do the double clutch part 99% of the time.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: jagec
you could be double-clutching on the upshift (lol)

See my comments about non-synchro transmissions or weak synchros. Double-clutching on an upshift is just as necessary as on a downshift, as is rev-matching, you just don't notice since you take your foot off the gas when upshifting and that makes the rev-match essentially automatic.

ZV

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Vic

I rev-match every downshift. It's part of driving a stick and just as instinctual once you get the hang of it. Properly done, downshifting is no more harmful on your car than upshifting and much safer than just coasting in neutral as you are in proper control of the car at all times.

I've been driving stick for 13 years and I never felt the need to heel-toe/double-clutch. The synchros do what they're designed to do and Nissan's transmission + Redline fluid is silky-smooth.

so what do you do when going into a corner? Need to brake and downshift at the same time.

have to heel-toe.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
No, I understand the reason in a non-synchro transmission like some truck transmissions but in a car with synchros it strikes me as completely unecessary. I almost never shift down into first unless I come to a stop light and by then I've usually stopped anyway so it doesn't matter.

Believe me, I've driven manual transmission cars for years and rarely if ever double clutched any of them.

BTW-I've even driven a car without a clutch. My first car was a SAAB 99 and it could be started in gear. I was out at my local mall one day and pressed in the clutch only to find that the clutch cable snapped. I was able to drive the car home by starting it in gear for the times I absolutely had to stop and shifted it by rev matching between gears.

When I downshift I just rev match and let the clutch out.

Well... you have an STi. It has a god-like transmission and enough torque and low gearing to start off in 2nd easily. Regular WRX's are not the same. Not by a long shot. Fsckin' only reason I wish I had waited for an STi would be to have that tranny. There's a 99.9% chance that I will be buying an STi early next year, right now I'm just waiting to see if Subaru actually does a re-design or not. WRX tranny is a POS. Shifting into 1st while moving without double-clutch rev-match is more or less impossible, and unfortunately you have to do it pretty often in traffic because 2nd is poorly geared (too long).

 

[Reckoner]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
No, I understand the reason in a non-synchro transmission like some truck transmissions but in a car with synchros it strikes me as completely unecessary. I almost never shift down into first unless I come to a stop light and by then I've usually stopped anyway so it doesn't matter.

Believe me, I've driven manual transmission cars for years and rarely if ever double clutched any of them.

BTW-I've even driven a car without a clutch. My first car was a SAAB 99 and it could be started in gear. I was out at my local mall one day and pressed in the clutch only to find that the clutch cable snapped. I was able to drive the car home by starting it in gear for the times I absolutely had to stop and shifted it by rev matching between gears.

When I downshift I just rev match and let the clutch out.

Well... you have an STi. It has a god-like transmission and enough torque and low gearing to start off in 2nd easily. Regular WRX's are not the same. Not by a long shot. Fsckin' only reason I wish I had waited for an STi would be to have that tranny. There's a 99.9% chance that I will be buying an STi early next year, right now I'm just waiting to see if Subaru actually does a re-design or not. WRX tranny is a POS. Shifting into 1st while moving without double-clutch rev-match is more or less impossible, and unfortunately you have to do it pretty often in traffic because 2nd is poorly geared (too long).

It's been confirmed, the base WRX will be getting a 2.5L Engine upgrade

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I've been driving stick for 13 years and I never felt the need to heel-toe/double-clutch. The synchros do what they're designed to do and Nissan's transmission + Redline fluid is silky-smooth.

I already posted that I rarely double-clutch. Never at all, in fact, except for a rolling downshift into 1st. Heel-and-toe rev-matching is just part of good driving with a stick. Sure, it's not always necessary, but your tranny and clutch will thank you in the long run, as will your passengers with smoother downshifts. Plus, once learned properly, it is safer as it is the ONLY way to downshift while in a corner.
Granted, not all cars have the pedals properly setup for heel-and-toe, and not all cars are smooth with it either. Every car is different. My current pretty much requires it is all.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: spidey07

so what do you do when going into a corner? Need to brake and downshift at the same time.

have to heel-toe.

My car has 389 lbs of torque at the rear wheels. I can leave it in gear and still smoke the tires coming out of most corners.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
It's been confirmed, the base WRX will be getting a 2.5L Engine upgrade

I heard that. I figure they're gonna go with the Legacy GT drivetrain throughout. I still want that STi 6-speed though. It will be mine!!

 

[Kalvin00]

I'm just learning stick, although it's pretty smooth all around now..and I don't double-clutch/rev match..when downshifting into a corner I just let the clutch out slowly..i'm not that advanced yet

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Kalvin00
I'm just learning stick, although it's pretty smooth all around now..and I don't double-clutch/rev match..when downshifting into a corner I just let the clutch out slowly..i'm not that advanced yet

don't bother double-clutching, but you should revmatch. It's just a question of hitting the gas a bit before letting out the clutch in the lower gear.