POLL: Are You Anti-Semitic if you Disagree with Israel?

[Patranus]

No.
But if you defend terrorist thugs whos mission is to wipe every Jew off the planet than yes.

 

[Jhhnn]

No.
But if you defend terrorist thugs whos mission is to wipe every Jew off the planet than yes.

Which terrorist thugs are you referencing, anyway?

Obviously not the ones wearing Israeli uniforms who recently shot an unarmed fleeing palestinian in the back, then popped a cap in his face?

Terrorist thugs aren't exclusively anti- Israeli...

 

[woolfe9999]

Sounds like you're saying that I should ignore the dumb extremists on this board. I chose not to do that. P&N is inherently a waste of time.

Yes, for the most part I'm saying people in general should ignore dumb extremists. The fact that people like to "debate" them as a form of lurid entertainment is exactly WHY P&N and other boards like it are, for the most part, "inherently a waste of time." Political debate should not be escapist entertainment, or at least it shouldn't be all the time.

- wolf

 

[Lemon law]

Why can't we just call it like we see its. And just tell the truth. Yes, much of the Arab side arrayed against the Israeli state are a bunch of rascals also. But where on this whole mid-east cluster fuck does it say, that if one side is a rascal, it must mean the other sides is the good guy?

Why can't we just live with the larger fact that the bad overall behavior of one side has nothing to do with the bad behavior of the other side, and if both are rascals, then call a spade a spade and say both sides are rascals that are collectively behaving badly.

And when we reach that larger truth that there is nothing within the religions of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or atheism that predisposes anyone to morality or the lack of it, and add that to that the fact that there are outstanding saints and sinner to be found in any grouping of human beings, has to lead us to all believe the root of human religious prejudice is to be found by prejudging on the basis of any human religion.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes, for the most part I'm saying people in general should ignore dumb extremists. The fact that people like to "debate" them as a form of lurid entertainment is exactly WHY P&N and other boards like it are, for the most part, "inherently a waste of time." Political debate should not be escapist entertainment, or at least it shouldn't be all the time.

- wolf

Psst... He's not a candidate (Private joke)

Ignoring extremism for a moment there is the question of the validity of these kinds of polls to begin with. People are after all often motivated by curiosity when reading provocative titles. I know I am and when confronted with simplistic content the temptation to choose the most absurd response as a "reward" arises. I suspect there are those who give in and would say "Yes, space aliens are responsible for our problems" if that were a choice.

 

[ProfJohn]

Israel a democracy? well, kinda, except for the millions of palestinians they've kept under their boot for 40 years...

Peace with their neighbors? Tell it to the Lebanese, OK?

Syria is a dictatorship, but then Jordan is a monarchy, a hereditary dictatorship, and Egypt is every bit as much a dictatorship as Syria...

Gaza? Gaza has a democratically elected govt, unlike the rulers of the west bank, who regained power in an Israeli sponsored coup...

Or would you prefer to overlook all of that?

The whole anti-semitic schtick is innuendo, and an attempt to shame and silence Israel's critics with the memory of the holocaust. In modern America, it's worse than being called a baby-raper.

Anti-semitic is as anti-semitic does. Jews are not Israel, except when it suits Israeli propaganda purposes, and Israel does not speak for all jews.

My best friend of 30 years was jewish, until he died. My wife works for a jewish lawyer, who's treated her extremely well for over 20 years. My dentist of 21 years is jewish, and a moyel. If jewish people want to be my neighbors, they're welcome. If their daughters want to marry my sons, they'd be welcome to do so, with all that it would mean. If the entire jewish population of Israel wanted to immigrate to the US, I wouldn't mind a bit...

Go ahead, insinuate that I'm a jew-hater and a holocaust denier because I oppose many of the policies of the state of Israel- you'll only discredit yourself.

Whose policies are worse: Israel or Hamas and Hezbollah?

They keep the Palestinians 'under boot' as you say because when they don't they launch rockets and set off suicide bombs killing innocent Israelis.

Take the West Bank barrier. Sure it is a pain in the ass to the Palestinians and makes their life difficult, but look at what it has done to security in Israel and the nearly complete halt in attacks since it was built. Read what Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah said about it "limits the ability of the resistance to arrive deep within [Israeli territory] to carry out suicide bombing attacks, but the resistance has not surrendered or become helpless, and is looking for other ways to cope with the requirements of every stage" of the intifada.

Also, Israel has made peace with Egypt and Jordan and would most likely make peace with Lebanon if it weren't for the fact that Hezbollah uses it for a staging ground to launch attacks against Israel.

Think about it for a second. If you owned a sheep farm and your neighbor allowed wolves to roam freely on his property and every once in a while one of those wolves came your side and ate a sheep would you be justified in crossing over and hunting those wolves down?

Now imagine if those sheep were actually your friends and neighbors, would you still allow them to be randomly killed because your neighbor refused or was incapable of doing something about it?

 

[QuantumPion]

It's really a matter of degree.

"I disagree with the way the Israeli government has been handling the situation lately" = not anti-semite.

"Israel are evil zionists nazis murdering poor defenseless arabs to steal their land" = anti-semite.

 

[Atreus21]

Why can't we just call it like we see its. And just tell the truth. Yes, much of the Arab side arrayed against the Israeli state are a bunch of rascals also. But where on this whole mid-east cluster fuck does it say, that if one side is a rascal, it must mean the other sides is the good guy?

A reasoned judgment would reveal that if one belligerent uses suicide bombers against civilians as policy, and the other uses soldiers to hit military targets as policy, it's not difficult to determine who the good guys and who the bad guys are.

Why can't we just live with the larger fact that the bad overall behavior of one side has nothing to do with the bad behavior of the other side, and if both are rascals, then call a spade a spade and say both sides are rascals that are collectively behaving badly.

Because that is drawing moral equivalence where none exists. Hamas, Al-Qaida, and Hezbollah attack civilians deliberately. Israel does not. Pretty simple.

 

[Lemon law]

Non Prof John asks, "Whose policies are worse: Israel or Hamas and Hezbollah?"

And how do we quantify measure that question? And if we answer that question, where do we ask for regime change?

1. Since Israel, Hamas, and Hezbollah are all in a conflicting war of terrorism against each other, we must ask two questions, which of the three are the greater villains in terms of victimizing each other, and which has killed more of the opposition? Since the answer to both questions is Israel by a wide margin, it may not be the answer ole PJ wants to hear.

2. We can understand Neither Hamas or Hezbollah have little use for Israel and Israel has little use for Hamas or Hezbollah, but unless all three have significant internal support within their zone of control, we have somewhat of a total draw. But the total tragedy of it all is that none of the three is leading the rest of the world towards a any viable future mid-east peace the entire world wants and needs.

Which somewhat explains why my mid-east position is and remains, fuck Israel, Hezbollah, and Hamas, and have binding third party arbitration to solve mid-east problems.

 

[woolfe9999]

Non Prof John asks, "Whose policies are worse: Israel or Hamas and Hezbollah?"

And how do we quantify measure that question? And if we answer that question, where do we ask for regime change?

1. Since Israel, Hamas, and Hezbollah are all in a conflicting war of terrorism against each other, we must ask two questions, which of the three are the greater villains in terms of victimizing each other, and which has killed more of the opposition? Since the answer to both questions is Israel by a wide margin, it may not be the answer ole PJ wants to hear.

I see what you did there. It's the classic (barley hidden) might makes wrong fallacy. Two sides are shooting at each other. He who has the bigger guns is morally worse than he who has the smaller guns.

- wolf

 

[ProfJohn]

Non Prof John asks, "Whose policies are worse: Israel or Hamas and Hezbollah?"

And how do we quantify measure that question? And if we answer that question, where do we ask for regime change?

1. Since Israel, Hamas, and Hezbollah are all in a conflicting war of terrorism against each other, we must ask two questions, which of the three are the greater villains in terms of victimizing each other, and which has killed more of the opposition? Since the answer to both questions is Israel by a wide margin, it may not be the answer ole PJ wants to hear.

2. We can understand Neither Hamas or Hezbollah have little use for Israel and Israel has little use for Hamas or Hezbollah, but unless all three have significant internal support within their zone of control, we have somewhat of a total draw. But the total tragedy of it all is that none of the three is leading the rest of the world towards a any viable future mid-east peace the entire world wants and needs.

Which somewhat explains why my mid-east position is and remains, fuck Israel, Hezbollah, and Hamas, and have binding third party arbitration to solve mid-east problems.

Who is going to do the binding??

Who is going to put their troops on the ground in-between Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel?

And don't answer the UN because it has no troops of its own and instead relies on the troops provided to it by member countries and no one is going to put its troops on the ground in a situation like that.

 

[Lemon law]

I see what you did there. It's the classic (barley hidden) might makes wrong fallacy. Two sides are shooting at each other. He who has the bigger guns is morally worse than he who has the smaller guns.
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No Woolfe9999, its not a small or large guns question at all, its a matter of which side does more indiscriminate killing.

Take the Israeli incursions into Lebanon and Gaza, by no means were they eye for an eye reprisals, the Israeli version seems to be 1999 eyes and teeth for every Israeli one.

And the Israeli reprisals are often collective punishment and totally indiscriminate.

And before you start bleating about terrorists firing rockets at innocent ole Israel, we must ask and answer that what came first the chicken or the egg question. Namely, are terrorists firing rockets at Israel because Israel stole their land and tossed them into concentration camps making them third class citizens in the land of their own birth or are terrorists firing rockets at Israel because they are just terrorist rascals and that is what terrorist rascals do?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Namely, are terrorists firing rockets at Israel because Israel stole their land and tossed them into concentration camps making them third class citizens in the land of their own birth or are terrorists firing rockets at Israel because they are just terrorist rascals and that is what terrorist rascals do?

Hamas has one goal and that's to gain control of the Palestinians through the destruction of Israel. What excuse is made for them matters little. It's what they do and will always do. It's their raison d'être, consequently Israel cannot adopt a policy other than mass suicide which will satisfy Hamas.

 

[nageov3t]

terrorists firing rockets at Israel because Israel stole their land and tossed them into concentration camps

this right here is about where criticizing Israel starts stepping into antisemitic territory.

 

[Jaskalas]

this right here is about where criticizing Israel starts stepping into antisemitic territory.

Why does it have to be concluded as a hatred for Jews? Could just be a love for the terrorists.

 

[Lemon law]

this right here is about where criticizing Israel starts stepping into antisemitic territory.

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So you are simply saying that if a Jew robs a bank and the police try to both force the Jew to give back the money and then prosecute the Jew for the crime of bank robbery, that too is anti-Semitic!

I am not and do not have to be a Hamas sympathizer to understand what motivates them, and if you think the history of post 1948 Israel does not fit that bank robber analogy, why don't you rebut it on the historical facts. Rather than play the anti-Semitic card in a feeble hope that it will change any anything.

 

[nageov3t]

So you are simply saying that if a Jew robs a bank and the police try to both force the Jew to give back the money and then prosecute the Jew for the crime of bank robbery, that too is anti-Semitic!

I am not and do not have to be a Hamas sympathizer to understand what motivates them, and if you think the history of post 1948 Israel does not fit that bank robber analogy, why don't you rebut it on the historical facts. Rather than play the anti-Semitic card in a feeble hope that it will change any anything.

if you think that Israel stole Palestinian land, you might be antisemitic.
if you think that Israel put Palestinians into "concentration camps," you might be antisemitic.
if you think that Israel is such a scourge on the face of the earth that it justifies suicide bombers and purposefully targeting civilians, you're almost definitely antisemitic.

 

[Jhhnn]

Meh. This thread is full of the usual pro-Israeli emotional rationalizations.

So, I ask you all, why do you feel that way about Israel? Seriously. What is it about Israel that inspires those feeling from America, if not a collective self imposed guilt trip wrt the holocaust and the "plight" of jews in the past?

Pretend that the Israelis aren't jewish. How do you feel about that govt when you free yourself of guilt for something our own nation didn't do and never condoned?

Differently, I'd hope- otherwise you'd be truly blind in every way.

 

[nageov3t]

Meh. This thread is full of the usual pro-Israeli emotional rationalizations.

So, I ask you all, why do you feel that way about Israel? Seriously. What is it about Israel that inspires those feeling from America, if not a collective self imposed guilt trip wrt the holocaust and the "plight" of jews in the past?

Pretend that the Israelis aren't jewish. How do you feel about that govt when you free yourself of guilt for something our own nation didn't do and never condoned?

Differently, I'd hope- otherwise you'd be truly blind in every way.

when one group of people are strapping bombs to the chests of women and children and having them walk out into a crowded shopping mall, it's hard not to instinctively side with the guys who aren't doing that.

in terms of basic human rights, I'd take my chances with Israel over any of the Muslim regimes any day. call me crazy, but I wouldn't worry about being stoned to death walking through Jerusalem with my boyfriend. I wouldn't say the same for Tehran or Riyadh.

 

[Jhhnn]

when one group of people are strapping bombs to the chests of women and children and having them walk out into a crowded shopping mall, it's hard not to instinctively side with the guys who aren't doing that.

in terms of basic human rights, I'd take my chances with Israel over any of the Muslim regimes any day. call me crazy, but I wouldn't worry about being stoned to death walking through Jerusalem with my boyfriend. I wouldn't say the same for Tehran or Riyadh.

So that's part 2 of the usual We Rock! They Suck! You Suck! Everything Sucks! headset encouraged by Israeli propaganda.

And it really has nothing to do with the question I posed, either. People will fight with what they have, so the difference between a suicide bomber in a shopping mall and a hellfire missile attack on a different mall is that the guy who did the latter gets to go home for dinner... The Israelis have the technological advantage of being able to target theoretically high value opponents and claim collateral damage for the rest, while the Pals don't have that particular luxury... either way, it's basically terrorism... Killing the Pal leadership is obviously an exercise in futility, given that conditions leading to the need for such leadership don't change...

 

[Lemon law]

Now loki tries to confuse the justice or injustice of a given cause with the quality of their weapons. In essence saying he would side with the well armed bankrobber with fully automatic machine guns over the the cops who only have pistols. Because might makes right.

The fact is that in all conflicts, the various protagonists fight with the weapons they have, not the weapons they wish they had, with the Palestinians being blockaded from acquiring anything but rocks, bottles, some home made explosives, suicide bombers, and some very ineffective home built rockets. Which of course makes the terrorists of Hezbollah ever so much more civilized in the eyes of someone like Loki, because they have more technologically advanced weapons than Hamas. And a nation like North
Korea has to be at least the moral equivalent of Israel by Loki reasoning. Because North Korea have more tanks, a much bigger Navy, and more artillery pieces than Israel itself.

Or we all could just grow a brain and realize Israel has its choice, give the Palestinian people a chance at their own State, or they will never find any Arab acceptance or a chance to live in peace. So far its been true for 62 out of 62 years of Israel's history, yet Israel has never found a way to deal with any of its neighbors except by overwhelming military superiority that wins Israel no friends as it deepens its own hatreds among all its neighbors.

But if it makes anyone any happier to say all this mid-east hate from its Arab neighbors is all due to just antisemitism, you may get very confused if the problems in the mid-east keep going and going and going for another 62 years, or until some external to Israel terrorists organizations finally acquire chemical, biological, radiological, or even some loose nukes and the means to deliver it.

Then maybe we can finally have peace in the mid-east, instead of learning to share Israel, Israel will be so toxic no one can live there.

 

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

hating the Israeli government doesn't mean you hate Jews

 

[CanOWorms]

This comes up time and time again on this forum. Apparently people genuinely believe that those who oppose Israel's actions and policies are anti-semitic.

I couldn't disagree more. It just does not logically follow that you are anti-semitic if you oppose Israeli actions. Sure, most anti-semites oppose Israel. However, this does not mean that all those that oppose Israel are anti-semitic. These types of arguments are just emotional nonsense that distract from the real issues.

It's interesting that you post this when you have the opposite reaction when someone criticizes European policies. I guess you get overtaken by your "emotional nonsense."

 

[Lemon law]

If I may, let me, in my best cool hand Luke articulation say, what we have here, is a
fiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalure to communicate.

And worse yet, as all we choose up our various sides, and champion only that side, we ignore our collective guilt.

Because after 62 damn years, what we have here is a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaailure to
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOve any of our mid-east problems. Gee golly whiz, yah horah, the collective world has managed to make a just mid east peace even further away than it was 62 years ago. Is that progress and change we can believe in or bust? And speak of bust, we should all be so proud that we can puke.

Will we progress now by all picking just one side and killing the other, or delight in the fact that the larger world, has helped all sides drive out their moderates leaving only die hard extremists on all sides that demand total victory for their side or else.

At the end of the day, moderate Israelis and moderate Palestinians are capable of making peace, and why should we hate either? Its the moderates on all sides the larger world needs to encourage, instead we empower the extremists, and then wonder why we make no progress in the mid-east?

 

[soccerballtux]

red herring thread