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POLL ADDED: AEG and NVIDIA's "Viral"'outreach programme' targets Forums

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Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

I know what the differences in motives are. But, what does it matter where the motivation comes from, whether paid or an aquired preference? How does this change the end result?

Shill - Pushes product they were paid to push and trash talk the competition.
Enthusiast fanboy - Pushes product for own reasons and trash talk the competition.

My subtle point is, there is no difference in the results that each of these individuals wish to acheive, whether motivated by pay or self acheived enthusiasm.

How are we to tell the difference between an well mannered, wellspoken AEG shill or just a well mannered and wellspoken enthusiast? Cause I have no idea how we can tell.

I guess you're a consequentialist then. Although the "result" may be the same (troll pushes product and makes irrational statements), obviously I'm talking about from an ethical point of view this is wrong.

It's similar to why RMAing a card that was overclocked to death is wrong; you might say 'so what? The person paid good money for the card and they deserve a working product,' and (properly covered up) the result is the same - the company won't know the difference and will give them a working card.

Does ethics not matter anymore? Your point is that detecting AEG members would be difficult. Fair enough. It still doesn't make it right!
 
Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

I know what the differences in motives are. But, what does it matter where the motivation comes from, whether paid or an aquired preference? How does this change the end result?

Shill - Pushes product they were paid to push and trash talk the competition.
Enthusiast fanboy - Pushes product for own reasons and trash talk the competition.

My subtle point is, there is no difference in the results that each of these individuals wish to acheive, whether motivated by pay or self acheived enthusiasm.

How are we to tell the difference between an well mannered, wellspoken AEG shill or just a well mannered and wellspoken enthusiast? Cause I have no idea how we can tell.

I guess you're a consequentialist then. Although the "result" may be the same (troll pushes product and makes irrational statements), obviously I'm talking about from an ethical point of view this is wrong.

It's similar to why RMAing a card that was overclocked to death is wrong; you might say 'so what? The person paid good money for the card and they deserve a working product,' and (properly covered up) the result is the same - the company won't know the difference and will give them a working card.

Does ethics not matter anymore? Your point is that detecting AEG members would be difficult. Fair enough. It still doesn't make it right!

Oh no no!! I agree that it is HIGHLY unethical. And I am an advocate for not RMA'ing a card that someone screwed up themselves. I guess what I was really trying to understand was, how will this impact anything. That's where I was going with the end result thing. I think Pete said it well enough. Not much will change except for people calling "shill" instead of "fanboy". Other than that, there is not much that can be done about it in the way of finding out who is what, but I guess we know that already.

 
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Oh no no!! I agree that it is HIGHLY unethical. And I am an advocate for not RMA'ing a card that someone screwed up themselves. I guess what I was really trying to understand was, how will this impact anything. That's where I was going with the end result thing. I think Pete said it well enough. Not much will change except for people calling "shill" instead of "fanboy". Other than that, there is not much that can be done about it in the way of finding out who is what, but I guess we know that already.
the impact: more confusion and distrust in the forums

what can be done? nVidia should make a disclosure or discontinue this viral advertising . . . but that'll never happen . . . so probably, 'nothing'.

Caveat Emptor

trust no one

😛

😀
 
what can be done? nVidia should make a disclosure or discontinue this viral advertising . . . .

along with every other company that employs this type of marketing?

yep, you're right, good luck with that happening 🙂

 
Originally posted by: rise4310
what can be done? nVidia should make a disclosure or discontinue this viral advertising . . . .

along with every other company that employs this type of marketing?

yep, you're right, good luck with that happening 🙂

i did say "that'll NEVER happen" . . . 😛

i may despise this advertising but i am at the least, realistic
:Q

However, it is better to be informed than to remain ignorant of these marketing designs on our forum. 😉
 
lol, you guys act like 'viral marketing' is some kind of unethical practice that nVidia should be sweeping under the carpet. Apparently none of you work at mid-to-large sized corporations, because if you did, you'd know that every company in the world is doing it. No one cares about banner ads and 30-second TV sports anymore, it's all about viral promotions online and product placements on TV. Any company that's got a marketing department worth its salt is in this business nowadays, and I can promise you that includes nVidia, ATI, Intel and AMD. You may not like it, and it's probably not good for the forums, but it's big business in 2005... honestly, to me, this 'backlash' sounds more like a way for the folks disgruntled by nVidia's recent success to 'get back' at them. 9500 Pro user and BTW, so please don't tell me i'm a fanboy, and i'm obviously not being paid since i post about once a month, if that. Just calling it like i see it...
 
Originally posted by: SexyK
lol, you guys act like 'viral marketing' is some kind of unethical practice that nVidia should be sweeping under the carpet. Apparently none of you work at mid-to-large sized corporations, because if you did, you'd know that every company in the world is doing it. No one cares about banner ads and 30-second TV sports anymore, it's all about viral promotions online and product placements on TV. Any company that's got a marketing department worth its salt is in this business nowadays, and I can promise you that includes nVidia, ATI, Intel and AMD. You may not like it, and it's probably not good for the forums, but it's big business in 2005... honestly, to me, this 'backlash' sounds more like a way for the folks disgruntled by nVidia's recent success to 'get back' at them. 9500 Pro user and BTW, so please don't tell me i'm a fanboy, and i'm obviously not being paid since i post about once a month, if that. Just calling it like i see it...

so you DO work in advertising?

Since it's NOT a secret, please show us links that ATI, Intel and AMD are doing this type of viral marketing . . .

or are you just 'talkin'?

btw, we already know M$ does it and it is NOT ethical . . . don't care to "get back" at anyone . . . just want people to know that active advertising moles are hidden on the forums.
 
Nope, not in marketing myself, but I worked worked for one of the two largest media companies in the world for years up until this fall, and I can tell you that during the past 18-24 months there wasn't one product launch, large or small that wasn't accompanied by some form of viral promotion. I had the opportunity to interact with marketing professionals who had worked with a lot of the largest internet/media/tech companies in the US, and I can tell you that they believe viral was far and away the most cost-effective form of advertising available. For the record, I think you're completely justified in wanting to let people know that this sort of thing goes on in forums, but I do think you're being a bit unfair here. Mainly, because:

1) There's always the risk that you're getting misinformation when you're getting information online from a public forum, blog, etc, etc... so I'm not quite sure why you think this is a new development, or especially dangerous? This phenomenon is everywhere. For example, do you think everything posted on political blogs is unbiased? Of course not, and I think anyone who seriously reads these forums is smart enough to form their own opinions and not just rely on the opinion of those who are most outspoken.

2) I think it's pretty clear that many posters here do want to undermine nVidia (or their supporters on the forum?) for whatever reason. Haven't quite figured out why yet, beyond the typical fanboyism. Either way, I think this is one case where you're fighting a losing battle trying to smear nVidia as being dishonest or unethical in their advertising. Anyone that can do a Google search can see that viral marketing is THE hottest trend in advertising right now. I promise you that if you try it, you'll find many articles outlining the viral programs in place at many, many major companies from Ford to MS (as you mentioned) to BurgerKing to Intel. To me, it seems that trying to smear nVidia for jumping on the viral bandwagon is due to either a misunderstanding of the advertising marketplace or it's a simple attempt to undermine nVidia and their supporters. I just don't see how you can deny the viral marketing is prevalent?
 
Originally posted by: SexyK
lol, you guys act like 'viral marketing' is some kind of unethical practice that nVidia should be sweeping under the carpet. Apparently none of you work at mid-to-large sized corporations, because if you did, you'd know that every company in the world is doing it. No one cares about banner ads and 30-second TV sports anymore, it's all about viral promotions online and product placements on TV. Any company that's got a marketing department worth its salt is in this business nowadays, and I can promise you that includes nVidia, ATI, Intel and AMD. You may not like it, and it's probably not good for the forums, but it's big business in 2005... honestly, to me, this 'backlash' sounds more like a way for the folks disgruntled by nVidia's recent success to 'get back' at them. 9500 Pro user and BTW, so please don't tell me i'm a fanboy, and i'm obviously not being paid since i post about once a month, if that. Just calling it like i see it...

The "everyone is doing it" excuse makes it no less unethical.
 
Originally posted by: SexyK
. . . I had the opportunity to interact with marketing professionals . . . they believe viral was far and away the most cost-effective form of advertising available. For the record, I think you're completely justified in wanting to let people know that this sort of thing goes on in forums, but I do think you're being a bit unfair here. Mainly, because:

1) There's always the risk that you're getting misinformation when you're getting information online from a public forum, blog, etc, etc... so I'm not quite sure why you think this is a new development, or especially dangerous? This phenomenon is everywhere. For example, do you think everything posted on political blogs is unbiased? Of course not, and I think anyone who seriously reads these forums is smart enough to form their own opinions and not just rely on the opinion of those who are most outspoken.

2) I think it's pretty clear that many posters here do want to undermine nVidia (or their supporters on the forum?) for whatever reason. Haven't quite figured out why yet, beyond the typical fanboyism. Either way, I think this is one case where you're fighting a losing battle trying to smear nVidia as being dishonest or unethical in their advertising. Anyone that can do a Google search can see that viral marketing is THE hottest trend in advertising right now. I promise you that if you try it, you'll find many articles outlining the viral programs in place at many, many major companies from Ford to MS (as you mentioned) to BurgerKing to Intel. To me, it seems that trying to smear nVidia for jumping on the viral bandwagon is due to either a misunderstanding of the advertising marketplace or it's a simple attempt to undermine nVidia and their supporters. I just don't see how you can deny the viral marketing is prevalent?

first of all, "everyone is doing it" does not justify its lack of ethics.

How am i being unfair in reporting this news? [1] We KNOW about politics and political forums and blogs . . . this is NOT comparable . . . people ask tech advice and expect personal experiences, not a paid advertisement.

[2]Undermine nVidia? What about the constant posts undermining ATI? It goes both ways. 😉

Smear nVidia? They are the ones contracting for this crap. . . . which disrupts OUR forums.
:thumbsdown:
 
apoppin -- Never said there weren't those that attempt to undermine ATI as well. Clearly there are. I just think you're blowing this one particular issue out of proportion. I'm just not sure how you could characterize what they're doing as 'evil and indefensible'? I agree that it should be out in the open, but i disagree with you that this is some kind of snafu for nVidia. I do commend you for your comments earlier in the thread citing the fact that many other large companies are involved in this type of practice, though.
 
Originally posted by: SexyK
apoppin -- Never said there weren't those that attempt to undermine ATI as well. Clearly there are. I just think you're blowing this one particular issue out of proportion. I'm just not sure how you could characterize what they're doing as 'evil and indefensible'? I agree that it should be out in the open, but i disagree with you that this is some kind of snafu for nVidia. I do commend you for your comments earlier in the thread citing the fact that many other large companies are involved in this type of practice, though.

it IS evil and indefensible to undermine the forums for their gain[period]

i would say just the same if ATI does it and just as strongly . . .

this viral marketing stinks and i stand by those statements. . . . perhaps if enough people express displeasure, it won't be so rampant. . . . perhaps not, but i prefer to take a 'stand' against it.

Again, my source is EliteBastards and i am merely ReReporting what they said - it's News . . . whether it turns out to be a snafu or not for nVidia is not up to me . . .

. . . my purpose was to bring this out in the OPEN and try to explain what we saw already happening on these forums - especially in Video [where nVidia's viral marketing is clearly at work to our detriment]
 
I guess you're a consequentialist then. Although the "result" may be the same (troll pushes product and makes irrational statements), obviously I'm talking about from an ethical point of view this is wrong.

It's similar to why RMAing a card that was overclocked to death is wrong; you might say 'so what?

This is pretty funny, really. You guys have no idea whether these people are spreading misinformation, the right information, or no information at all. All you know is that nVidia reaches out and finds enthusiasts who post a lot in online communities, and gets them cards to play with. Unethical? Just like burning up a proc and RMAing it? Give me a freaking break. So it's unethical to talk about a hardware product online unless you paid for it? Every journalist in the business would have to stop posting on their blogs and in forums, because we all get software and hardware for free. Its called reviewing.

Until you can show that nVidia encouraged, or requires, these associates to post enthusiastic comments in return for free hardware there is nothing whatever to this whole 11 page brouhaha beyond your own conspiracy fantasies. You'd have _some_ basis for your beliefs, at least, if nVidia products were acknowledged to be inferior, and you had dozens of people posting raving messages about them. But the worst you can say about them is that they are as good or better than anything else that is available. Why the hell would the company have to bribe people to make positive comments?

WTB a Grassy Knoll, kkthx.
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
I guess you're a consequentialist then. Although the "result" may be the same (troll pushes product and makes irrational statements), obviously I'm talking about from an ethical point of view this is wrong.

It's similar to why RMAing a card that was overclocked to death is wrong; you might say 'so what?

This is pretty funny, really. You guys have no idea whether these people are spreading misinformation, the right information, or no information at all. All you know is that nVidia reaches out and finds enthusiasts who post a lot in online communities, and gets them cards to play with. Unethical? Just like burning up a proc and RMAing it? Give me a freaking break. So it's unethical to talk about a hardware product online unless you paid for it? Every journalist in the business would have to stop posting on their blogs and in forums, because we all get software and hardware for free. Its called reviewing.

Until you can show that nVidia encouraged, or requires, these associates to post enthusiastic comments in return for free hardware there is nothing whatever to this whole 11 page brouhaha beyond your own conspiracy fantasies. You'd have _some_ basis for your beliefs, at least, if nVidia products were acknowledged to be inferior, and you had dozens of people posting raving messages about them. But the worst you can say about them is that they are as good or better than anything else that is available. Why the hell would the company have to bribe people to make positive comments?

WTB a Grassy Knoll, kkthx.

nVidia doesn't require anything . . . AEG handles the viral marketing . . .i guess i have the same response to you as before . . . READ the article at EliteBastards [it's obvious you still haven't read it nor most of the 11 pages of thread here] before jumping in and blindly defending your company. . . . and you don't have ANY defense - except to ridicule those of us with ethics . . .
:roll:

i'll check back in the morning . . . aloha
 
Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
Originally posted by: SexyK
lol, you guys act like 'viral marketing' is some kind of unethical practice that nVidia should be sweeping under the carpet. Apparently none of you work at mid-to-large sized corporations, because if you did, you'd know that every company in the world is doing it. No one cares about banner ads and 30-second TV sports anymore, it's all about viral promotions online and product placements on TV. Any company that's got a marketing department worth its salt is in this business nowadays, and I can promise you that includes nVidia, ATI, Intel and AMD. You may not like it, and it's probably not good for the forums, but it's big business in 2005... honestly, to me, this 'backlash' sounds more like a way for the folks disgruntled by nVidia's recent success to 'get back' at them. 9500 Pro user and BTW, so please don't tell me i'm a fanboy, and i'm obviously not being paid since i post about once a month, if that. Just calling it like i see it...

The "everyone is doing it" excuse makes it no less unethical.

What makes it unethical is the fact that they "Do Not Want You To Know" that they ARE doing it. Some of you here may be OK with this, but I am Not, and I will lay the smack down on anyone I think is envolved in this. Yes I will Witch Hunt them. I will call them out on the table.

They must learn that THIS IS NOT THE WAY WE WANT TO DO Bussiness, nor Buy Their Product From Them.

 
Im not the least suprised at this, I hope everyone becomes more careful when buying products based on very few opinions.
 
Originally posted by: Killrose
Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
Originally posted by: SexyK
lol, you guys act like 'viral marketing' is some kind of unethical practice that nVidia should be sweeping under the carpet. Apparently none of you work at mid-to-large sized corporations, because if you did, you'd know that every company in the world is doing it. No one cares about banner ads and 30-second TV sports anymore, it's all about viral promotions online and product placements on TV. Any company that's got a marketing department worth its salt is in this business nowadays, and I can promise you that includes nVidia, ATI, Intel and AMD. You may not like it, and it's probably not good for the forums, but it's big business in 2005... honestly, to me, this 'backlash' sounds more like a way for the folks disgruntled by nVidia's recent success to 'get back' at them. 9500 Pro user and BTW, so please don't tell me i'm a fanboy, and i'm obviously not being paid since i post about once a month, if that. Just calling it like i see it...

The "everyone is doing it" excuse makes it no less unethical.

What makes it unethical is the fact that they "Do Not Want You To Know" that they ARE doing it. Some of you here may be OK with this, but I am Not, and I will lay the smack down on anyone I think is envolved in this. Yes I will Witch Hunt them. I will call them out on the table.

They must learn that THIS IS NOT THE WAY WE WANT TO DO Bussiness, nor Buy Their Product From Them.
SexyK is correct though IMHO, which means you'll have very little you are willing to purchase if every corp. involved in such practices no longer gets your biz. Unethical, yes, but since when did corporations begin to behave ethically? Perhaps some spend a great deal of money and effort on appearing to be so, but "playing dirty" is par for the course when they feel they can profit by it.

For example, product placement has been huge over the decades in motion pictures. Tobacco companies spent huge sums to make certain a leading man/woman would light up at a particular time/ponit in a movie. For a more contemporary example, check I, Robot, the first 10 minutes are one big product placement after another 😉

Now, the "seeding" or "viral" approach is more surreptitious, but I thought most adults were disenchanted/cynical enough to understand that corporations, and even goverments, are continously trying to influence them. It is everywhere, it pervades every medium we are exposed to. That isn't paranoia, that is a fact of life, as I hope you begin to understand now in face of this latest "scandal".

I too think it is unethical, underhanded, and "dirty pool", but it is exactly what I expect from corporations, so it neither surprises me, nor finds me unprepared. What does surprise me is how many seem to think it is some devilish new tactic, and now see enemies all about them.

Nothing has changed, except perhaps you are now a little wiser, a little more cynical about this medium, and perhaps even a bit more disenchanted with Corporations.

The ramifications will include; Some will align themselves with a particular brand now, in an attempt to garner their attention and get in on the freebies. Some will now have a good old fashion McCarthy style witch hunt "already happening in this thread", Most will simply be more suspicious that they are getting nothing more from a particular post than regurgitated corporate propaganda. And for some like myself, it changes nothing, it is merely more evidence that our cynical perception of all mediums i.e. newpapers, magazines, radio, television. on-line, even many catagories of books, is both justified and warranted.



 
The ramifications will include; Some will align themselves with a particular brand now, in an attempt to garner their attention and get in on the freebies. Some will now have a good old fashion McCarthy style witch hunt "already happening in this thread", Most will simply be more suspicious that they are getting nothing more from a particular post than regurgitated corporate propaganda.
Off topic, but for the record McCarthy was for the most part right.

I think we all understand that this sort of thing has been going on in one form or another for years. What bothers me is that it's now a packaged system.
 
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

I too think it is unethical, underhanded, and "dirty pool", but it is exactly what I expect from corporations, so it neither surprises me, nor finds me unprepared. What does surprise me is how many seem to think it is some devilish new tactic, and now see enemies all about them.

Nothing has changed, except perhaps you are now a little wiser, a little more cynical about this medium, and perhaps even a bit more disenchanted with Corporations.

The ramifications will include; Some will align themselves with a particular brand now, in an attempt to garner their attention and get in on the freebies. Some will now have a good old fashion McCarthy style witch hunt "already happening in this thread", Most will simply be more suspicious that they are getting nothing more from a particular post than regurgitated corporate propaganda. And for some like myself, it changes nothing, it is merely more evidence that our cynical perception of all mediums i.e. newpapers, magazines, radio, television. on-line, even many catagories of books, is both justified and warranted.
agreed and well-stated

:thumbsup:

whatever the consequences, it's ain't "good" for the forums, however. 😉

i am just sorry companies are choosing the low road . . . and it does affect my perception of them . . . i can seem more people justifying RMA'ing O/C'd GPUs with the same lack of conscience . . . the way they steal from Microsoft; although two wrongs rarely make a right.
:disgust:




 
nVidia doesn't require anything . . . AEG handles the viral marketing . . .i guess i have the same response to you as before . . . READ the article at EliteBastards [it's obvious you still haven't read it nor most of the 11 pages of thread here] before jumping in and blindly defending your company. . . . and you don't have ANY defense - except to ridicule those of us with ethics

It may come as news to you, but the "11 pages of thread here" don't constitute proof of anything, despite the high opinion many of its participants have of themselves. I did read the article, and nothing there constitutes proof, as far as I can tell, of anything other than what I have said: that nVidia is getting cards into the hands of enthusiasts early through an outreach program. Doesn't matter who's running it, or whether it is public. None of that hooha is proof of anything.

Lastly, nVidia is not my company, as I assume you know, and I don't really get into the whole "video card fanboi" thing, due to the fact that I have a life. I do, however, get a sad laugh out of the rest of you.
 

Calling a secret program "community outreach" was in itself quite offensive to me, personally. Orwellian, even.
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
nVidia doesn't require anything . . . AEG handles the viral marketing . . .i guess i have the same response to you as before . . . READ the article at EliteBastards [it's obvious you still haven't read it nor most of the 11 pages of thread here] before jumping in and blindly defending your company. . . . and you don't have ANY defense - except to ridicule those of us with ethics

It may come as news to you, but the "11 pages of thread here" don't constitute proof of anything, despite the high opinion many of its participants have of themselves. I did read the article, and nothing there constitutes proof, as far as I can tell, of anything other than what I have said: that nVidia is getting cards into the hands of enthusiasts early through an outreach program. Doesn't matter who's running it, or whether it is public. None of that hooha is proof of anything.

Lastly, nVidia is not my company, as I assume you know, and I don't really get into the whole "video card fanboi" thing, due to the fact that I have a life. I do, however, get a sad laugh out of the rest of you.

Don't worry, your posts are good for a laugh also as you clearly have an unjustified high opinion of your own opinions.😉

"a life" . . . sure . . and you are also posting in Video by defending your company by ridiculing those who disagree with - a proven fanboy's tactic.
:roll:


"Proof" for you would be a concrete block hitting you on the head . . . most of us don't require that much. :Q
 
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Markbnj
nVidia doesn't require anything . . . AEG handles the viral marketing . . .i guess i have the same response to you as before . . . READ the article at EliteBastards [it's obvious you still haven't read it nor most of the 11 pages of thread here] before jumping in and blindly defending your company. . . . and you don't have ANY defense - except to ridicule those of us with ethics

It may come as news to you, but the "11 pages of thread here" don't constitute proof of anything, despite the high opinion many of its participants have of themselves. I did read the article, and nothing there constitutes proof, as far as I can tell, of anything other than what I have said: that nVidia is getting cards into the hands of enthusiasts early through an outreach program. Doesn't matter who's running it, or whether it is public. None of that hooha is proof of anything.

Lastly, nVidia is not my company, as I assume you know, and I don't really get into the whole "video card fanboi" thing, due to the fact that I have a life. I do, however, get a sad laugh out of the rest of you.

Don't worry, your posts are good for a laugh also as you clearly have an unjustified high opinion of your own opinions.😉

"a life" . . . sure . . and you are also posting in Video by defending your company by ridiculing those who disagree with - a proven fanboy's tactic.
:roll:


"Proof" for you would be a concrete block hitting you on the head . . . most of us don't require that much. :Q


OUCH! Who threw that damn block?!?

😛
 
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