I'm sorry but that seems biased. Why are Rollo's links crap, but a link to an article on EliteBastards taken as the truth? I'm not saying that the links/news that Rollo links to are undisputable fact, but it's unfair to blast one company based on an article on one site and then summarily dismiss links to other sites that blast a different company.
I think many of the posts in this thread are suffering from a combination of not paying attention to the details in the original post, and the old repeat a lie enough times, and everyone begins to believe it is true.
AEG has in all likelihood found someone here on AT to participate in their program. Have you seen any advertisements? No, because that isn't what the program is. Once again, these people do not post advertisements, they hang out in forums waiting for that annoying question that gets asked 19 times a day.... "What is the best videocard for my....?" They simply respond to that person's request for help, said person, if they like the advice, buys the card. That person has a good experience with it, they can then speak from experience on other boards. Remember, that anytime you let "word of mouth" sway your decision in a purchase, or you make a recommendation of a product, you have become an unknowing "viral marketing" tool. So if you are going to bitch about this garbage, remember that if you ever recommend a product you are participating in exactly this type of program, only difference is that you may not have been smart enough to be the one getting paid.
AEG has in all likelihood found someone here on AT to participate in their program. Have you seen any advertisements? No, because that isn't what the program is. Once again, these people do not post advertisements, they hang out in forums waiting for that annoying question that gets asked 19 times a day.... "What is the best videocard for my....?" They simply respond to that person's request for help, said person, if they like the advice, buys the card. That person has a good experience with it, they can then speak from experience on other boards. Remember, that anytime you let "word of mouth" sway your decision in a purchase, or you make a recommendation of a product, you have become an unknowing "viral marketing" tool. So if you are going to bitch about this garbage, remember that if you ever recommend a product you are participating in exactly this type of program, only difference is that you may not have been smart enough to be the one getting paid.
I'd like to see something that substantiates that. The term "most anybody" certainly doesn't cover most of the personalities in this thread. These are people who engage in regular flame fests over the products and behavior of two hardware manufacturers. I don't think John Q. Public would recognize most of them as representative of average opinion. I am not even sure they are representative of "the enthusiast community."
In any case, nobody has really wanted to deal with the central question, which is whether the people in this program have an agreement with nVidia to post _positive_ messages in order to receive free hardware. I assume the reason it hasn't been directly addressed is that: a) there is no proof that is the case; b) it doesn't even make sense that it would be the case, from a risk/reward point of view; and c) without the assumption that is _is_ the case all of the moral grandstanding and ranting on this thread collapses into juvenile bickering.
Oh, I'm not saying that the Elitebastards article is wrong, from my rage3d forum days, he always seemed pretty balanced in his postings. I'm just saying that it's unfair that one link is held up as fact and others are labeled as trash. Granted, those links provided by Rollo have a Nvidia slant, but most of them were true at the time they were posted.
This is simply marketing and is accepted. It's similar to something like when you watch an Ultimate Fighting championship and see EAS banners all over the ring and when the champ, who is sponsored by EAS, wins the fight he holds up his EAS tee-shirt and gives credit to EAS suppliments for his win. Everyone with half a brain cell knows he probably never even touched one of their products. Those who are easily swayed may fall for the tactic. This is done by toy manufacturers (free toys to popular kids to start trends), stock brokers, sode companies, just about everyone.
Now, let's look at just how seedy this practice is. Someone who already has been expousing the virtue of X product will likely continue to do so. They have already formulated their view on the line and thus a freebie will likely not influence their postings much. It is not like giving kickbacks to Tom's hardware in cash with a wink and a suggestion to make their card look better then it is.
You want to use Rollo as a example, but anytime he posts anything pro-Nvidia, there will be multiple posts pointing out he is biased and his word should be taken with caution and then counter-points to his arguments. It is not like he is writing a no feedback review that would sway readers to taking his words at face value.
I tend to favor ATI, but I find Rollo to be informative, articulate and with good information that helps generate intelligent discussions. If he got a free card from Nvidia, my opinion would not change of him as a poster at all. Have followed Rollo's posts for a while and have seen him say things about ATI card he has liked. I do not doubt if Nvidia every puts out a bad product Rollo would say so, no matter what he is getting or not, from Nvidia. Personally, I doubt he is getting any compensation, but I also don't care.
Now, let's look at just how seedy this practice is. Someone who already has been expousing the virtue of X product will likely continue to do so. They have already formulated their view on the line and thus a freebie will likely not influence their postings much. It is not like giving kickbacks to Tom's hardware in cash with a wink and a suggestion to make their card look better then it is.
You want to use Rollo as a example, but anytime he posts anything pro-Nvidia, there will be multiple posts pointing out he is biased and his word should be taken with caution and then counter-points to his arguments. It is not like he is writing a no feedback review that would sway readers to taking his words at face value.
I tend to favor ATI, but I find Rollo to be informative, articulate and with good information that helps generate intelligent discussions. If he got a free card from Nvidia, my opinion would not change of him as a poster at all. Have followed Rollo's posts for a while and have seen him say things about ATI card he has liked. I do not doubt if Nvidia every puts out a bad product Rollo would say so, no matter what he is getting or not, from Nvidia. Personally, I doubt he is getting any compensation, but I also don't care.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Yes, there is nothing published which proves or disproves this because, drumroll, it is Secret!
I believe you are overlooking the obvious: This is a program established by a Marketing Firm. Marketing firms primary object is the promotion of their clients' products (and in a biased manner I must add). Apparently the NDA does not cover specs or performance of the product. If so, what could be the possible reason for that in a marketing driven excercise such as this?
No, I believe the "secrecy" seems clearly to enhance the effectiveness of the "moles" efforts by making them appear to be uncompensated fellow enthusiast. I.e., something other than what they actually are.
In general I have no objective to companies providing free HW to peeps in hopes they will like it and tell others so. But would if there are "strings" attached, such as even implying if you state "good things" about the product you will receive more. In this case even the appearance of objectivity is gone. You have become a compensated salesperson for that company. Thus to masqurade (sp) as a regular member on these boards is deceptive, a fraud, and therefore unethical.
I also have no problem (and think its a different animal altogether) with companies providing free HW to beta testers under NDA. I believe this is reasonable. It is an unfinished product and are asking for these peeps to test to find probs that can correct before it hits the market. To have these problems published may have a detrimental effect on sales, even if it is resoved before hitting the market. Thus, the NDA seems to serve a legitimate and reasonable purpose.
I am willing to change my mind if the parameters of these NDA's are published and the purpose is not as nefarious as it obviously seems.
Fern
Originally posted by: Topweasel
Originally posted by: apoppin
let's look at some of the FUD you DID post [you are the AUTHOR of these]:
HDR+AA not working on X1800XTs
ATI Chairman Ho steps down/Wasn't he one of the defendants in insider trading?
More Crossfire woes/ An unstable platform
X1800XT Crossfire to only be 256MB
Display quality issue with Quake 4 and X1800s
Sacrifice won't run right on ATI cards!/It's been FIVE YEARS- will the horror end?
FUD indeed . . . i didn't have to go back far.
:roll:
---------------------------------
i dunno, your sli'd cards + MB is worth a couple of thousand dollars . . .
and now YOU are naming names
:thumbsdown:
That FUD that you claim Rollo spewed was nothing but the truth. True he might, at this course of his life, not have much nice things to say about ATI. But that doesn't make it FUD.
The Fact is the Founder and Former CEO of ATI stepped down. It is true that early Southbrides for the CrossFire chipset were problematic. Its true (even if worded poorly) that several of the games that are supposed to work with HDR+AA on a X1800 series don't work correctly with that feature, Its true that on a low selling but critically aclaimed game ATI never fixed early driver issues with it. For the longest time there was truth (infact I don't think this rumor has ever beened dispelled) to the Master X1800XT having only a 256MB of memory (don't want X800XT 256MB buyers having to purchase a card the declined to get in the first place just get Crossfire support.) The only hting I haven't heard about is the Q4 issues. Just because information can be considered Damning doesn't make it FUD. ATI users that are not in the know, poeple looking into buying a new card, and Nvidia Fanboys all deserve to know this information even if ATI Fanboys don't want to admit its true.
Except the fact, that when people post the same things about nVidia (bad shadows on FC, shimmering) Rollo plays it down, says it's not important, says that the games are old (even though they're still one of the most benchmarked games), says that people only find it when they look for it (shimmering,shadows), or just says that it's developers fault and not nVidia.
On the other hand, when ATi has a problem Rollo's the first to post, and he has double-standards
Lets see... When nVidia hardware (GTX) could only run Soft-shadows decently on 10*7 (With SLI) he said that it's worth it because it's got better IQ than 16*12. He also told people to buy the GF6 cards because they had SM3, and when people told him that they'll be too slow to run SM3 games he said that it' s still worth it for the SM3. But, he says that HDR+AA on the x1800XT isn't worth it because games won't run on it somothly.
Yes ATi has some problems with HDR+AA on FC, but it's the programmers fault, but he won't stop talking about it. When nVidia has problems with FC, and it appears to be nVidia's fault, he says that the game is an old game, who plays that game, and he didn't even notice the problems...
I won't even start talking about Shimmering...
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
[
You have just described a salesperson.
While they can be identified in stores like Best Buy etc by their uniform, here they are disquised as regular members. Its partly the deception that I object to (see my post in Forum Issues if you care to see the others)
[
Only difference is getting paid?
How about the deception in my not disclosing my motivation/lack of objectivity? I.e., pretending to be something I'm not.
If you wanna write a testimonal for a product and are compensated, you better not put it in the "Letters to the Editor" section. You are required to disclose it is a paid advertisement.
Fern
You have just described a salesperson.
While they can be identified in stores like Best Buy etc by their uniform, here they are disquised as regular members. Its partly the deception that I object to (see my post in Forum Issues if you care to see the others)
[
Only difference is getting paid?
How about the deception in my not disclosing my motivation/lack of objectivity? I.e., pretending to be something I'm not.
If you wanna write a testimonal for a product and are compensated, you better not put it in the "Letters to the Editor" section. You are required to disclose it is a paid advertisement.
Fern
Originally posted by: linkgoron
Originally posted by: Topweasel
Originally posted by: apoppin
let's look at some of the FUD you DID post [you are the AUTHOR of these]:
HDR+AA not working on X1800XTs
ATI Chairman Ho steps down/Wasn't he one of the defendants in insider trading?
More Crossfire woes/ An unstable platform
X1800XT Crossfire to only be 256MB
Display quality issue with Quake 4 and X1800s
Sacrifice won't run right on ATI cards!/It's been FIVE YEARS- will the horror end?
FUD indeed . . . i didn't have to go back far.
:roll:
---------------------------------
i dunno, your sli'd cards + MB is worth a couple of thousand dollars . . .
and now YOU are naming names
:thumbsdown:
That FUD that you claim Rollo spewed was nothing but the truth. True he might, at this course of his life, not have much nice things to say about ATI. But that doesn't make it FUD.
The Fact is the Founder and Former CEO of ATI stepped down. It is true that early Southbrides for the CrossFire chipset were problematic. Its true (even if worded poorly) that several of the games that are supposed to work with HDR+AA on a X1800 series don't work correctly with that feature, Its true that on a low selling but critically aclaimed game ATI never fixed early driver issues with it. For the longest time there was truth (infact I don't think this rumor has ever beened dispelled) to the Master X1800XT having only a 256MB of memory (don't want X800XT 256MB buyers having to purchase a card the declined to get in the first place just get Crossfire support.) The only hting I haven't heard about is the Q4 issues. Just because information can be considered Damning doesn't make it FUD. ATI users that are not in the know, poeple looking into buying a new card, and Nvidia Fanboys all deserve to know this information even if ATI Fanboys don't want to admit its true.
Except the fact, that when people post the same things about nVidia (bad shadows on FC, shimmering) Rollo plays it down, says it's not important, says that the games are old (even though they're still one of the most benchmarked games), says that people only find it when they look for it (shimmering,shadows), or just says that it's developers fault and not nVidia.
On the other hand, when ATi has a problem Rollo's the first to post, and he has double-standards
Lets see... When nVidia hardware (GTX) could only run Soft-shadows decently on 10*7 (With SLI) he said that it's worth it because it's got better IQ than 16*12. He also told people to buy the GF6 cards because they had SM3, and when people told him that they'll be too slow to run SM3 games he said that it' s still worth it for the SM3. But, he says that HDR+AA on the x1800XT isn't worth it because games won't run on it somothly.
Yes ATi has some problems with HDR+AA on FC, but it's the programmers fault, but he won't stop talking about it. When nVidia has problems with FC, and it appears to be nVidia's fault, he says that the game is an old game, who plays that game, and he didn't even notice the problems...
I won't even start talking about Shimmering...
Maybe Rollo is a little insecure about the product he just paid for and doesn't want to see its flaws, think of it as someone telling you that you have an ugly baby. But thats completely different then what is happening here, he plays like people are making too big of a deal about a Nvidia Problem, while other people who are in Rollos shoes with the same type of topic for ATI tend to just yell FUD, Liar, Nvidiot. These are things I have never seen Rollo type. Keep that in mind.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Agreed, it is not. (Like apoppin requested I hope we can keep names out of this.)
However, I believe this is an example of the negative consequences I predicted above. I don't look forward to seeing these accusations repeated in every video thread from now on out.
Fern
Nothing really new here - nothing has been proven or shown; rbV5 tells us that he's beta tested software for nvidia and ATI and Rollo of course deflects everything from the thread and puts it all on rbV5.
Rollo has shown that AEG's true motives are unknown so we can't judge them, says the ATI 'free card plan' is nefarious in jest (yet even while joking, of course, he forgets to make any judgements regarding Nvidia's 'free card plan').
Rollo, I give you props, you are the master at deflecting attention onto others and completely reversing the situation. AEG must be paying you good money; no wonder you can afford to go on so many fishing trips!
Rollo has shown that AEG's true motives are unknown so we can't judge them, says the ATI 'free card plan' is nefarious in jest (yet even while joking, of course, he forgets to make any judgements regarding Nvidia's 'free card plan').
Rollo, I give you props, you are the master at deflecting attention onto others and completely reversing the situation. AEG must be paying you good money; no wonder you can afford to go on so many fishing trips!
rise
Diamond Member
- Dec 13, 2004
- 9,116
- 46
- 91
again, unless i missed someone, we have exactly one person who was approached by aeg (through another forum) and he said it was far from agreeing to become a nv shill.
i agree in principle that this type of marketing stinks but none of us have seen these ndas, elitebastards has named one source which is just a forum thread that happens to be about as speculative as this is.
their ndas could be no more then an agreement to not say that they were "gifted" the hardware as that would make it appear, rightly or not, that their opinion is biased. it would compromise the entire strategy. it doesn't necessarily tell the user to bash the competition.
i understand your point about "full disclosure" as the member should state he was gifted the card, but how can you do that and have the strategy work? and really, how much full disclosure is there on these forums anyway? not the review sites, but the forums where anyone can be anything.
if they're just trying to create a buzz then its pretty simple. i know if i worked for aeg i'd have no problem picking out a couple people here on both sides of the ball to whom i'd give cards, knowing that they'd be posting like mad about their new toy.
if i was gifted a 7800gtx i would have a very hard time saying anything bad about it. same with the 1800xt. hell i paid for a gtx and i don't have anything bad to say about it.
Wow finger pointing goes on and on. The fact is from the beginning of this thread, Rollo has had people pointing the finger on him as being part of this. No amount of "I didn't say his name" excuses is going to remove this fact. Rollo mearly brought up that another user has admittenly gotten hardware from several vendors, yet its never affected his recommendations beyond telling the good or bad experiences he has had with said hardware. He didn't say that he was part of this viral (bad use of words for a bussiness practice) advertising, but merely was using him as an example of how it is intended to work.
Step 1. Find Smart poster, and Long time Poster.
Step 2. Give Poster hardware for review.
Step 3. If poster has good experience because the product is top notch (why shouldn't it be) hope because of his influence and continous posting that when asked he will give glowing recommendations for said product.
Step 4. Sales Increase from word of typing advertising.
He Like myself believes while not the most forward type of advertising, shouldn't change a posters ways (sell out) but give them more reason to like them when the topic comes up.
Its the same reason Companies do giveaways at Lans and stuff like that. Sometimes the Idea that a company is giving away a card where you were at whether or not you got one yourself will cause the person to see the company in a even better light.
rbV5
Lifer
- Dec 10, 2000
- 12,632
- 0
- 0
I don't mind discussing my involvement in the Catalyst Beta testers program, and never have minded. I'm proud of my association with the program, and feel its a service to the community.
Fact is, I've been approached by both companies and others (like Cakewalk for instance) for testing multimedia products and software, not graphics cards specifically. I'll assume its because of my posting about multimedia issues and products, it is also where I direct the focus my beta testing.
The last piece of hardware I recieved was a TV Tuner card, and thats been some time ago. I've turned down several offers, because I just don't have the time for anything other than some driver testing anymore (and not as much time as I would like for that)
I'm confident that my postings on this board and others is of my own opinion, and I have no agenda to push other than being an enthusiast. I currently use both Nvidia and ATI products, and have for some time. My preference is for ATI these days for a number of reasons, and at the same time feel Nvidia has obviously good hardware/software. I can also defend my posting and why I posted. I wonder if anyone associated with the AEG program could do the same?
First of all I see you skirted the issue entirely of Rollo finger pointing at rbV5, or his history of doing this kind of manipulation time and time again. Perhaps due to your newness to the forums, I don't know..?
Second of all - no kidding we were all thinking of Rollo before it got out of hand - Rollo posts constantly on the failings of ATI, future Nvidia product releases, etc. He seems to have an uncanny way of finding ATI glitches and bugs (or at least negative articles about them), yet deprives us of his sleuth-like services for Nvidia problems. And it's always been this way. He's even got a contact in Nvidia for god's sakes - his bias is right there and it permeates everything he posts.
He's got an uncanny way of manipulating posts about him; he's like message board judo- he finds any target and deflects the negative attention he's getting for his biased/flamebaiting posts onto anyone in sight.
Have you even considered the implications of the AEG type marketing? In theory: user gets free expensive video card from company in exchange for feedback on the card, and hopefully 'evangelising the product to other members of the community' .
AEG imperatives (allegedly):
Message board monitoring and response!!! The whole point of this type of marketing is just like a bribe or a buy-off! User gets free product and is encouraged to support it with as much zeal as fathomable. Obviously the AEG (or whoever) seeks out the most vigorous, tireless posters they can; ideal candidates would be someone who posts a lot, is at least reasonably intelligent but especially defends the product to no end. Lying, deceiving, posting FUD is all fair game if it's good PR for them and/or bad PR for the rival company.
If you can't see what's wrong in that then I guess you must be scratching your head as to why there are so many flame wars in video.
Rollo, OK, we're arguing over the word "works" in your thread title. I find it misleading on its face. You consider it acceptable b/c your post gives it context (unacceptably slow performance in SS2 and no option in FC). I can accept that, but I still think your title needs context on its own. But I've never been a fan of "Look in here!" type titles. 
OoB experience is a separate issue, and I guess you could say I'm cutting ATI some slack b/c I recall the time it took b/w NV previewing HDR at the 6800's launch and the actual release of the FC patch that enabled it.
OoB experience is a separate issue, and I guess you could say I'm cutting ATI some slack b/c I recall the time it took b/w NV previewing HDR at the 6800's launch and the actual release of the FC patch that enabled it.
Yes, the only difference is the pay. If you make a suggestion of a product, there is a motivation behind it. Whether you are a fanboy of one side or the other suggesting their product, you want to see your preferred brand come out on top.
These people are coming on here and posting "XXX product is the best ever" threads. They are answering questions. And beyond that, if anyone here read the details of the OP, you might also notice that the participants are given soon to be released products and are expected to give nVidia feedback on the product, and welcome if they enjoy the product to spread the word.
In other words, the real program is:
1)Sign up
2)Get free product before release date
3)Test product
4)Give feedback
5)Keep free product
6)If you like it, tell someone about it
WOW, how completely f__king unethical. You know what, maybe you are right. The next time I have a good experience with a product, I just won't tell anyone about it. They can just figure it out on their own.
No, a salesperson gets paid based on how many items he sells and how much they cost. His job is to do whatever is necessary, including misleading the customer on the actual quality of a product and get them to buy the most expensive thing there is. These people have nothing to GAIN by making their suggestion. They already have the free product. If they don't like it, they don't suggest it, if they do, they do.
rbV5
Lifer
- Dec 10, 2000
- 12,632
- 0
- 0
What I said was I've been offered hardware/software for beta testing, I've never been offered hardware/software for review...ever, and never been asked to post my experiences about any of those tested products in an open forum...ever, quite the opposite, under NDA, I am prevented from doing just that. I also have turned most of those offers down, due to the lack of time I have.
Any posting I do in the open forums is as a user/enthusiast of my own opinions.
I've given at least one good reason for the NDAs, but it is obvious that the ATI side of this debate isn't interested in reason. The primary object of a marketing firm is indeed to create positive buzz about a brand. That would include, I think, not creating negative buzz by relying on the ability of legions of thinly-loyal enthusiasts to avoid talking about a nefarious and ill-intentioned scheme to manipulate public opinion. Hell, the Pentagon can't even keep such a scheme secret in Iraq.
There are common characteristics of the kind of person who believes in just about any seemingly plausible conspiracy that is presented to them: a highly credulous nature and a tendency to confuse a lack of negative evidence for positive evidence. They never _know_ anything, but they are willing to _believe_ everything.
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