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Politics even affects light bulb choice.

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What's funny is that Republican George Bush signed the Energy Independence and Security Act that is phasing out incandescent bulbs.
That damn Obama, I mean Bush.
Personally, I prefer incandescent bulbs and have stocked up so I'm good for a few years.
I think 3-way bulbs are exempt , so at least I'll be able to have a regular reading light, that's all I ask. I don't like the quality of the light from cfl, led or halogen.

I'm a cheap bastard and poor, so I would rather not pay the upfront costs for the expensive leds, even though as a thinking human I realize they are cheaper in the long run.
 
I think the most interesting thing in this discussion is the perception that a sticker informing the consumer that something is more environmentally friendly is inherently political. Maybe it's just the forum...
 
on the other side of the fence....


if they had changed the message to say some religious quote... I would look for a different brand of lightbulb. maybe an LED light.


Posted from Anandtech.com App for Android
 
I think the most interesting thing in this discussion is the perception that a sticker informing the consumer that something is more environmentally friendly is inherently political. Maybe it's just the forum...

Probably because the sticker is 100% BS as has been discussed. These are no friendlier to the environment than an Exxon oil spill cleanup.
 
I try to buy green. But these CFL's are a joke! i think they are doing more harm then the old ones. they last a shorter time and cost 3x as much.

They are only truly harmful if you shatter one. Do you have any evidence that these things die more often than regular bulbs? Because I'm replacing my mom's bulbs (the old style ones) a lot more often than I replace CFLs.
 
They are only truly harmful if you shatter one. Do you have any evidence that these things die more often than regular bulbs? Because I'm replacing my mom's bulbs (the old style ones) a lot more often than I replace CFLs.

Anecdotes aren't evidence and confirmation bias is definitely in effect for many posters here. While quality of construction certainly plays a role, typical tested MTBF is far higher for CFLs than incandescents, and higher still for LEDs. You can choose to dislike them for aesthetic or other reasons, but longevity is more properly a reason to pick the CFL, not reject it.*

* Unless you have a specialty application like high temperature tolerance (e.g. an oven light) where an incandescent is clearly the proper choice.
 
They are only truly harmful if you shatter one. Do you have any evidence that these things die more often than regular bulbs? Because I'm replacing my mom's bulbs (the old style ones) a lot more often than I replace CFLs.

I think they last longer but nowhere near the 6-10 times longer that they claim.
 
I bought a bulk amount of Walmart Great Value CFLs in the mid 2000's (IIRC, about 20) - they have survived three house moves. Two weeks ago, I noticed the one of them died. I don't remember any of them ever dying - I have been really surprised they lasted this long.

3 years ago I did the same thing with some new LEDs - I bought outdoor 4 spot lights and 10 indoor replacements for regular bulbs. None have failed.

Anyway - as a progressive independent, I buy them because they last longer and use less energy.

I baught a bunch of cheap Walmart CFL's years ago too. they are still working.

got some new ones that were more expensive and they die fast.


WTF!
 
Anecdotes aren't evidence and confirmation bias is definitely in effect for many posters here. While quality of construction certainly plays a role, typical tested MTBF is far higher for CFLs than incandescents, and higher still for LEDs. You can choose to dislike them for aesthetic or other reasons, but longevity is more properly a reason to pick the CFL, not reject it.*

* Unless you have a specialty application like high temperature tolerance (e.g. an oven light) where an incandescent is clearly the proper choice.

Unless of course that anecdote is something you agree with of course.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34448038&postcount=47
 
Unless of course that anecdote is something you agree with of course.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34448038&postcount=47

If you can't tell the difference between someone distinguising an anecdote versus an actual scientifically derived statistical measure on one hand, and rendering an opinion on a political topic on the other, then perhaps the "highbrow" discussions at ATPN are too advanced for you and you ought to stick to simpler topics. Unless you're meaning this as a demonstration of the concept by showing the lower bound of "mean time between stupid statements" on this forum.
 
1. The OP's remarks are not supported by the article he links.

2. The simple answer is often the best:

Study 1 demonstrated that more politically conservative individuals were less in favor of investment in energy-efficient technology than were those who were more politically liberal. This finding was driven primarily by the lessened psychological value that more conservative individuals placed on reducing carbon emissions. Study 2 showed that this difference has consequences: In a real-choice context, more conservative individuals were less likely to purchase a more expensive energy-efficient light bulb when it was labeled with an environmental message than when it was unlabeled

'Green products' have long been thought to come with a price premium.

Conservatives, according to the article, do not place much, if any, value on the 'green' part.

If there are two products at the same price point and one has a 'green' label it is reasonable to assume that given the 'greens' price premium it is an otherwise inferior product (assuming it's not sold at a discount).

I.e., if you don't value the 'green' part it's a rational decision to choose the product of presumably higher quality.

And the OP's contention that the conservative consumer choice of the unlabeled product was to their financial detriment is completely unsupported.

Fern
 
1. The OP's remarks are not supported by the article he links.

False. Gotta read things better, brotha.

Quote from the abstract:

In a real-choice context, more conservative individuals were less likely to purchase a more expensive energy-efficient light bulb when it was labeled with an environmental message than when it was unlabeled.

My OP:

The interesting part came from when a 'save the environment' sticker was put on some of the light bulb packaging. In this case conservatives were less likely to purchase it even when all other things were equal.

Same light bulb, different sticker.

2. The simple answer is often the best:

'Green products' have long been thought to come with a price premium.

Conservatives, according to the article, do not place much, if any, value on the 'green' part.

If there are two products at the same price point and one has a 'green' label it is reasonable to assume that given the 'greens' price premium it is an otherwise inferior product (assuming it's not sold at a discount).

I.e., if you don't value the 'green' part it's a rational decision to choose the product of presumably higher quality.

What you are really saying here is that the simplest answer is the one that you just pulled out of your ass. Your contention relies upon conservatives not knowing that CFL light bulbs are green technology, something that is entirely unsupported by any evidence I am aware of.

When all prices were equal, both liberals and more conservative people overwhelmingly chose CFL's, almost certainly due to their higher efficiency. Were conservatives to view an equal price as indicative of inferior quality they would not do this. Your argument rests upon the highly dubious assertion that conservatives forgot the link between energy efficiency and environmental friendliness, only to be reminded of inferior quality by a green sticker.

This is fantasy land.

And the OP's contention that the conservative consumer choice of the unlabeled product was to their financial detriment is completely unsupported.
Fern

You did not read the study well. It was a choice between a CFL and an incandescent bulb. In nearly all applications using an incandescent bulb over a CFL is to your financial detriment long term. It was not choosing the unlabeled product that was to their detriment, it was failing to choose the labeled product that was.
 
Not sure why this is surprising. People do irrational things every day based on stupid things.
I think there was a study about posting calorie intake at fast food joints in NYC that had zero effect on consumption a couple years back.

Personally I buy the new light bulbs regardless of stickers or price. But I am also a conservationalist at heart. I try to use as little water and energy as possible.

My complaint about these CFLs is the lifespan is not as long as they claim. These things die faster than the old light bulbs imo. For the price they are not cost effective to replace because of this. Also in cold weather climates they take a couple minutes to come to full brightness. Goign into my garage I may as well bring a flashlight when lookign through the outside freezer for food. Because when it is 10 degrees out there the light takes about 3-4 mins before it is bright enough to see anything.


Have you checked the voltage at your sockets? CFL's can't handle voltage that is to high or low, it will shorten their life.
I rewired my whole house and all my CFL's live a very long life.
A cabinet my wife has kills anything but the old style bulds as the switch throws the voltage off. Have the basic bulbs in their now but will be cutting the switch off soon to fix that problem.
 
If you can't tell the difference between someone distinguising an anecdote versus an actual scientifically derived statistical measure on one hand, and rendering an opinion on a political topic on the other, then perhaps the "highbrow" discussions at ATPN are too advanced for you and you ought to stick to simpler topics. Unless you're meaning this as a demonstration of the concept by showing the lower bound of "mean time between stupid statements" on this forum.

You used an anecdotal post by someone else as part of your argument, yet you denigrate someone else for using an anecdote. In other words, you're a hypocrite like I showed PokerGuy to be earlier in this thread (but for a different reason).

As far as the actual thread, it simply shows that conservatives embody the phrase "cut off your nose to spite your face". We could put that more simply by stating the fact that to be conservative one must first discard their intelligence.
 
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/04/26/1218453110

While most of the outcomes of this study are in the 'no duh' category, one really sticks out. Basically consumers were given a choice between CFL light bulbs and regular ones at various price points. When price, etc was equal, everyone chose basically the same light bulb. (no duh, right?)

The interesting part came from when a 'save the environment' sticker was put on some of the light bulb packaging. In this case conservatives were less likely to purchase it even when all other things were equal. Conservatives were willing to subvert their own preferred purchase in order to demonstrate their dislike for anti-carbon emissions ideology. In a light bulb that nobody will use but them. That nobody else will even notice they were using. To their financial detriment.

That is mighty irrational.

Here's the entirety of what we can read:

This research demonstrates how promoting the environment can negatively affect adoption of energy efficiency in the United States because of the political polarization surrounding environmental issues. Study 1 demonstrated that more politically conservative individuals were less in favor of investment in energy-efficient technology than were those who were more politically liberal. This finding was driven primarily by the lessened psychological value that more conservative individuals placed on reducing carbon emissions. Study 2 showed that this difference has consequences: In a real-choice context, more conservative individuals were less likely to purchase a more expensive energy-efficient light bulb when it was labeled with an environmental message than when it was unlabeled. These results highlight the importance of taking into account psychological value-based considerations in the individual adoption of energy-efficient technology in the United States and beyond.

You claimed

In this case conservatives were less likely to purchase it even when all other things were equal.

Your bolded portion is not in the article, you added it. You are implying, at the very least, that the purchasers knew the products were otherwise identical. There is no basis for your assumption/assertion in the article.

OTOH, you may mean that the price was the same. If so, that is not supported by the article either.

Reread this part of the article:

Study 2 showed that this difference has consequences: In a real-choice context, more conservative individuals were less likely to purchase a more expensive energy-efficient light bulb when it was labeled with an environmental message than when it was unlabeled.

The article lacks any mention of same-priced bulbs. It says the more expensive bulb.

And here is your interpretation of the study's findings:

Conservatives were willing to subvert their own preferred purchase in order to demonstrate their dislike for anti-carbon emissions ideology.

This is what the article says:

Study 1 demonstrated that more politically conservative individuals were less in favor of investment in energy-efficient technology than were those who were more politically liberal.

These results highlight the importance of taking into account psychological value-based considerations in the individual adoption of energy-efficient technology in the United States and beyond.

They are attributing economics considerations to the behavior. You are attributing emotion ("dislike") and politics.

What's interesting, but goes unmentioned, is that liberals were less likely to buy a bulb labeled with an environmental message too. (Note the article's wording "more conservative individuals were less likely to purchase". It doesn't say "only", but rather uses the comparative term "more". Unless it's poorly written that means liberals were less likely to purchase also.)

Stripping away the partisan hackery, the point here seems to be the current marketing uselessness, if not detriment, of environmental labels on products.

Fern
 
Have you checked the voltage at your sockets? CFL's can't handle voltage that is to high or low, it will shorten their life.
I rewired my whole house and all my CFL's live a very long life.
A cabinet my wife has kills anything but the old style bulds as the switch throws the voltage off. Have the basic bulbs in their now but will be cutting the switch off soon to fix that problem.

I think voltage is one of the reasons why many of us have poor results from CFLs. (I've heard lights that are frequently turned off and on are poor choices for CFLs because the on-n-off shortens their life.)

I suspect that fluctuating voltage, not just too high or too low, is also detrimental to CFls. This a problem where I live. It's not my old wiring, it's the power company. I've had the power fluctuate so badly I had a ceiling fan catch fire. That got the power companies attention, but even after repair the situation is not ideal. I suspect the infrastructure has not kept up with population and increases in demand.

Fern
 
You used an anecdotal post by someone else as part of your argument, yet you denigrate someone else for using an anecdote. In other words, you're a hypocrite like I showed PokerGuy to be earlier in this thread (but for a different reason).

As far as the actual thread, it simply shows that conservatives embody the phrase "cut off your nose to spite your face". We could put that more simply by stating the fact that to be conservative one must first discard their intelligence.

No, it shows you have terrible logic skills. I didn't denigrate for using an anecdote, I corrected someone who was incorrectly extrapolating his anecdote to be representive of an entire set when the experimental results for the larger set show the opposite. This is a logical fallacy called "hasty generalization." The post you quoted is not a logical fallacy but rather an opinion about a cited anecdote that would apply regardless of the truth value of the anecdote. Let me show you examples of both so you can understand:

Logical Fallacy: I bought 2 CFL bulbs and both burnt out before 2 incandescent bulbs I bought; therefore incandescent bulbs are better.

Opinion: Although the two CFL bulbs burnt out quickly, they are on average far more energy efficient than incandescents therefore you should purchase CFL.
 
/this

I try to buy green. But these CFL's are a joke! i think they are doing more harm then the old ones. they last a shorter time and cost 3x as much.

I baught a bunch of the old bulbs. i think i'm good for a year or two.

Cfls do suck. They will be looked backed on as a substandard relic, like an 8 track. 3 yr lifespan at most tho it seems.

Leds are great however. The price just needs to come down soon.
 
Here's the entirety of what we can read:

Your bolded portion is not in the article, you added it. You are implying, at the very least, that the purchasers knew the products were otherwise identical. There is no basis for your assumption/assertion in the article.

Oh god, are you serious? You realize you're reading the abstract, right? If you go read more about the actual conduct of the study you will see that my depiction was correct.

OTOH, you may mean that the price was the same. If so, that is not supported by the article either.

Reread this part of the article:



The article lacks any mention of same-priced bulbs. It says the more expensive bulb.

This comes from what appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how the study was conducted. Each time an individual had a choice between an incandescent bulb and a CFL. In the case we are talking about here, the CFL was more expensive. When the CFL was more expensive it was still chosen about 60% of the time with no environmental sticker on it, despite it being more expensive. When the sticker was added, the prevalence of purchases decreased rapidly in relation to more conservative ideology despite the price of the CFL remaining the same from the previous test where it was chosen 60% of the time. THAT is what is meant by 'all other things being equal'. It's a basic scientific test.

They are attributing economics considerations to the behavior. You are attributing emotion ("dislike") and politics.

No, they aren't.

What's interesting, but goes unmentioned, is that liberals were less likely to buy a bulb labeled with an environmental message too. (Note the article's wording "more conservative individuals were less likely to purchase". It doesn't say "only", but rather uses the comparative term "more". Unless it's poorly written that means liberals were less likely to purchase also.)

Stripping away the partisan hackery, the point here seems to be the current marketing uselessness, if not detriment, of environmental labels on products.

Fern

Yes, I think a more accurate description would be as one becomes more conservative the likelihood decreases. This is a valid objection, but it's your only one. Everything else you read was just a basic ignorance of what you were trying to discuss. Before you go off calling people hacks, maybe you should check to be sure you didn't just write a whole bunch of stupid things.
 
Eskimospy, where are you going with this? Making "irrational" purchase decisions is hardly limited to one side of the aisle and isn't newsworthy. One hardly needs a scientific study to realize that certain triggers might induce reactive behavior from consumers that are contrary to their best interests. Stickers with symbolic buzzwords can and do signal to politically/philosophically minded customers: "Earth Friendly!", "artisan-made", "fair trade," and the previously mentioned "non-GMO" are all geared towards progressive thinking clients. I'm sure you could come up with plenty which would be designed to signal to conservative clients as well ("family friendly" perhaps?).

Likewise, there are an infinite number of other factors you could use as well - just stick a WalMart sticker on otherwise identical products and see how that affects behaviors of consumers. This doesn't demonstrate lower intelligence or radically irrational behavior from conservatives; it simply shows they're subject to the same influences as any other consumer. When a progressive buys a Prius that will never recover it's higher capital costs, we don't go around pointing out that as an example of irrationality on the buyer part, it's simply their expression of consumer choice in the marketplace.
 
I think one thing that leads to people feeling like they've been lied to with CFLs is that the bulb life is not an accurate representation of how long you can really expect it to last. With CFLs, on/off cycles have more of an impact than actual burn time, and yet they always list the burn time. If you have a location where you are constantly turning the light on and off, but it never stays on long (like closets), CFLs are not a good solution.
 
Eskimospy, where are you going with this? Making "irrational" purchase decisions is hardly limited to one side of the aisle and isn't newsworthy. One hardly needs a scientific study to realize that certain triggers might induce reactive behavior from consumers that are contrary to their best interests. Stickers with symbolic buzzwords can and do signal to politically/philosophically minded customers: "Earth Friendly!", "artisan-made", "fair trade," and the previously mentioned "non-GMO" are all geared towards progressive thinking clients. I'm sure you could come up with plenty which would be designed to signal to conservative clients as well ("family friendly" perhaps?).

Likewise, there are an infinite number of other factors you could use as well - just stick a WalMart sticker on otherwise identical products and see how that affects behaviors of consumers. This doesn't demonstrate lower intelligence or radically irrational behavior from conservatives; it simply shows they're subject to the same influences as any other consumer. When a progressive buys a Prius that will never recover it's higher capital costs, we don't go around pointing out that as an example of irrationality on the buyer part, it's simply their expression of consumer choice in the marketplace.

I figured where I was going with it was perfectly clear. Reducing power use and carbon emissions is an unarguably good thing. There is no situation ever under which if all other things are equal we should want to consume more power and emit more pollution. These people were choosing to consume more power and emit more pollution due to the presence of a sticker.

Not purchasing from Wal-Mart isn't the same thing. Buying from Wal-Mart has real economic implications that can lead to things people don't want. Is your purchase going to change that? Of course not, but you can't compare an unambiguously good thing to something that is not unambiguously good.
 
I figured where I was going with it was perfectly clear. Reducing power use and carbon emissions is an unarguably good thing. There is no situation ever under which if all other things are equal we should want to consume more power and emit more pollution. These people were choosing to consume more power and emit more pollution due to the presence of a sticker.

Not purchasing from Wal-Mart isn't the same thing. Buying from Wal-Mart has real economic implications that can lead to things people don't want. Is your purchase going to change that? Of course not, but you can't compare an unambiguously good thing to something that is not unambiguously good.

Reducing power use is a good thing because of the cost savings (unless the consumer decides to go with the other option for aesthetic or other reasons that are valued higher than the savings). Carbon emissions is hardly an unabiguous good as it's impossible to quantify the benefit economically and thus falls into the realm of rational ignorance for someone not already emotionally invested in the concept.

Buying from Walmart has the same economic implications as buying from most other vendors. Your hypothetical "leads to things people don't want" is a political values judgement, not an economic one.
 
I figured where I was going with it was perfectly clear. Reducing power use and carbon emissions is an unarguably good thing. There is no situation ever under which if all other things are equal we should want to consume more power and emit more pollution. These people were choosing to consume more power and emit more pollution due to the presence of a sticker.

Not purchasing from Wal-Mart isn't the same thing. Buying from Wal-Mart has real economic implications that can lead to things people don't want. Is your purchase going to change that? Of course not, but you can't compare an unambiguously good thing to something that is not unambiguously good.

I find your interpretation (and the author's, if it is the same as yours, and can't tell from the abstract, and am not paying $10 just to read the paper) highly suspect. I really doubt conservatives see the sticker and think lower power use and carbon emissions. Most already realize that is the point of a CFL. They see the sticker and think, some company is trying to use the environmental movement to sell me an inferior product with a higher price just so they can increase their profit margins. It doesn't matter that the prices are physically identical. Psychologically in the mind of most conservatives, they aren't. This is the way conservatives see most companies pushing environmentalism. They think of Al Gore flying on his private jet around the world living in his huge mansions, trying to get others to cut back their lifestyles so he can continue to live large. Note that I am not arguing that this is what green companies do (although I do think there are examples of it). I am just saying, you are off on the motivation behind conservatives. Liberals tend to trust environmentally motivated companies, conservatives tend to distrust them.
 
Reducing power use is a good thing because of the cost savings (unless the consumer decides to go with the other option for aesthetic or other reasons that are valued higher than the savings). Carbon emissions is hardly an unabiguous good as it's impossible to quantify the benefit economically and thus falls into the realm of rational ignorance for someone not already emotionally invested in the concept.

Buying from Walmart has the same economic implications as buying from most other vendors. Your hypothetical "leads to things people don't want" is a political values judgement, not an economic one.

Reducing carbon emissions is absolutely an unambiguous good. Full stop.

Of course buying from Walmart was a political values judgment, but pursuing your political goals is not irrational. Polluting more and paying more money because of a sticker is irrational, unless you view a sense of satisfaction for 'sticking it' to liberals as an economic benefit. (I actually believe quite a few people think this way, btw)
 
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