Policy Doesn't Make a Difference David Brooks (so most of the P&N whining is useless)

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ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Brooks is a shill for wealth, plain and simple. The US has a GINI coefficient of .45, while that of Sweden is .23. Which means that the middle class in Sweden is broader than in the US, where the middle class is basically being destroyed by income shifts to the top and lower wages and higher unemployment rates below.

And the whole argument wrt cultural differences is a sham, and the interpretations offered by various posters here equally so. The notion that governmental differences exist independently of the underlying culture is false, and obviously so.

As a society, America worships greed and idolizes the greediest among us, whereas the same sort of conduct is regarded as shameful among or Swedish cousins...

Brooks' little ditty is just a paean to that greed...
Yet another poster who didn't seem to read the article.

Brooks' never makes the argument US = good and Sweden = bad.

Instead he argues that Swedes in US = good and Swedes in Sweden = good, thus the widely different governmental policies of each country are less likely to be a factor in the success of their people compared to the underlying culture of said people.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Look at the success of Asians in Japan and South Korea and compare it the success of Asians in American. Despite the huge cultural differences between the US and Japan/SK you still see similar levels of economic success.
Asians that emigrate from Japan/SK/China are typically more well off, i.e. not living in poverty, so its not a stretch to say that they'd would be successful here in the US as well. And the ones that aren't successful, well, they just go back to where they came from. But if you took an Asian living in poverty in an Asian country (bonus points for one coming from a war ravaged country) and transplanted them into the US, they'd be successful as well. But the ones that aren't successful, well, they can't/won't go back.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Sweden doesn't exactly have open borders and have cultures from all over the world integrating (and not integrating).

Dude, the Article is bupkiss.

Brooks is a shill for wealth, plain and simple. The US has a GINI coefficient of .45, while that of Sweden is .23. Which means that the middle class in Sweden is broader than in the US, where the middle class is basically being destroyed by income shifts to the top and lower wages and higher unemployment rates below.

And the whole argument wrt cultural differences is a sham, and the interpretations offered by various posters here equally so. The notion that governmental differences exist independently of the underlying culture is false, and obviously so.

As a society, America worships greed and idolizes the greediest among us, whereas the same sort of conduct is regarded as shameful among or Swedish cousins...

Brooks' little ditty is just a paean to that greed...

I'm a lefty and can't stand David Brooks. Seriously, read the article, it's not that long and it's interesting, even if I don't agree with all of it. You guys are completely missing the point here.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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I'm a lefty and can't stand David Brooks. Seriously, read the article, it's not that long and it's interesting, even if I don't agree with all of it. You guys are completely missing the point here.

Thank you voice of reason. (And it really isn't that long.)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,715
6,266
126
I'm a lefty and can't stand David Brooks. Seriously, read the article, it's not that long and it's interesting, even if I don't agree with all of it. You guys are completely missing the point here.

I read it, it's bupkiss.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
The idea that you are a product of your environment is nothing new.

Basically, what PJ is trying to state is how you are raised is going to have a more important influence over who you are in life than anything else. If you are raised to believe in hard work, moral values, and other things deemed prosperous to both individuals and society, then you have a higher chance of succeeding. I agree with this and believe it to be a true view.

However, he then states that the government has no affect on individuals thus policy doesn't dictate how well an individual does. This I disagree with. Part of what influences people is the opportunities given or not given. The government can have a direct correlation and affect on this. Big time. One only has to look at history to prove this. Remember when the US government sanctioned slavery? Do you think slaves had much opportunity to succeed here in life? I think not.

Yes, the example I used was extreme, but I did it to illustrate a point. The government can directly influence how well the people and society do for good or bad. It can do so with small nudges and light touches, or completely lock down everything. Even if the government does nothing, the act of nothing is still an influence.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Brooks is a shill for wealth, plain and simple. The US has a GINI coefficient of .45, while that of Sweden is .23. Which means that the middle class in Sweden is broader than in the US, where the middle class is basically being destroyed by income shifts to the top and lower wages and higher unemployment rates below.

And the whole argument wrt cultural differences is a sham, and the interpretations offered by various posters here equally so. The notion that governmental differences exist independently of the underlying culture is false, and obviously so.

As a society, America worships greed and idolizes the greediest among us, whereas the same sort of conduct is regarded as shameful among or Swedish cousins...

Brooks' little ditty is just a paean to that greed...

Gini is affected by immigration. Countries with higher immigration see a higher gini.Who do you think has a higher immigration rate?!?!?!?!

Care should be taken in using the Gini coefficient as a measure of egalitarianism, as it is properly a measure of income dispersion. For example, if two equally egalitarian countries pursue different immigration policies, the country accepting higher proportion of low-income or impoverished migrants will be assessed as less equal (gain a higher Gini coefficient).

The funny thing is the wiki entry for the Gini under the problems using it for the type of argument you are making mentions Sweden specifically

Gini coefficients do include investment income; however, the Gini coefficient based on net income does not accurately reflect differences in wealth - a possible source of misinterpretation. For example, Sweden has a low Gini coefficient for income distribution but a significantly higher Gini coefficient for wealth (for instance 77% of the share value owned by households is held by just 5% of Swedish shareholding households )[12]. In other words, the Gini income coefficient should not be interpreted as measuring effective egalitarianism.

The top 5% of US households own about 32% of the wealth. So who lives in a more unbalanced system??????????????????????????????
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
History shows that he is right.

In the 1960s we set up the great society which created the safety net for poor people. In the years after it was established poverty dropped.

But then poverty stopped dropping. That was because the government can only do so much before cultural issues take over.

We can provide people with food, education and a place to live, but we can't instill them with a desire to work and succeed.

Thus the cultures that value hard work and education succeed regardless of where the people live and what obstacles they face, while the cultures that lack those values fail.

Therefore the best form of government would be one that gives people a positive environment where the people who want to succeed can as opposed to a government that focuses on artificial outcomes based on notions of 'fairness.'


It is a pretty conservative argument.


I think we may be arguing at cross purposes here. Culture will effect outcome, however he uses Sweden as a metric and I understand that. He then uses examples of other cohorts to say that policy is irrelevant. My point is that he cannot do this because stating that like groups cannot be influenced by policy decisions isn't a valid argument, because "policy" is an ambiguous term.

Here's an example.

Given two groups of culturally similar people on welfare:

Group A is given relatively unfettered discretion to spend funds received in any way possible, and has no mandate to work if they are able.

Group B has restrictions placed on how they can spend their money, are required to do some work suited to their abilities and are further required to improve their education with carrots and sticks for incentives.

Now since the second hasn't been tried I cannot say for certain that Group B will universally decide to get off of medicaid when possible, however I CAN state that Group A has individuals who do not know what it is to work at all. Given training and experience it may occur to some that doing the same work below market value is not a good idea and that with job placement assistance may find a viable way out of poverty. To say "get a job" to someone who lives where no jobs are to be had, with no education and no work experience is tantamount to "let them eat cake"

It would therefore seem that the best approach would be to enact policies with the goal of positively influencing problematic behaviors within a given culture.

Yes to some degree this is social engineering, but so is telling your kids to get an education and work hard and smart.

The problem with past efforts was the assumption that sending a check every month would be sufficient to bootstrap the impoverished into prosperity and that the inherent nature of people will preclude substantial abuse. That has clearly been shown to be incorrect.

It isn't about enacting handouts (I'm told that's a code word, but whatever) but providing motivation and the tools necessary to achieve.

In the worst case policy can say "if you refuse to comply you have lost any assistance". That's guaranteed incentive.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
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Yet another poster who didn't seem to read the article.

Brooks' never makes the argument US = good and Sweden = bad.

Instead he argues that Swedes in US = good and Swedes in Sweden = good, thus the widely different governmental policies of each country are less likely to be a factor in the success of their people compared to the underlying culture of said people.

Hogwash. Brooks argues that because the poverty rate in Sweden is the same for the poverty rate of their descendants in this country that there's "no difference" in outcomes between the two, and that therefore everything is peachy in the US.

He finds a vague correlation and attributes causation to it, extrapolates that to the rest of the descendants of Swedes in this country, and therefore to the rest of the US population.

He ignores changes in the distribution of income in this country over the last 30 years, pretends that things have always been the way they are today, even pretends, via inference, that income distribution among Swedish descendants in this country is the same as in Sweden.

Yeh, sure, he's an artful propagandist- maybe he even believes his own bullshit, but it's still bullshit...
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Hogwash. Brooks argues that because the poverty rate in Sweden is the same for the poverty rate of their descendants in this country that there's "no difference" in outcomes between the two, and that therefore everything is peachy in the US.

He finds a vague correlation and attributes causation to it, extrapolates that to the rest of the descendants of Swedes in this country, and therefore to the rest of the US population.

He ignores changes in the distribution of income in this country over the last 30 years, pretends that things have always been the way they are today, even pretends, via inference, that income distribution among Swedish descendants in this country is the same as in Sweden.

Yeh, sure, he's an artful propagandist- maybe he even believes his own bullshit, but it's still bullshit...
The poverty rate in the US has been nearly unchanged for 30-40 years now.

Yes the rich are getting richer as a share of total wealth, but the poor are not getting poorer.

In fact what is happening is that the entire country has gotten richer over the past 30 years. Someone living at the poverty level today is FAR better than someone living at the poverty level 30 years ago.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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Hogwash. Brooks argues that because the poverty rate in Sweden is the same for the poverty rate of their descendants in this country that there's "no difference" in outcomes between the two, and that therefore everything is peachy in the US.

He finds a vague correlation and attributes causation to it, extrapolates that to the rest of the descendants of Swedes in this country, and therefore to the rest of the US population.

He ignores changes in the distribution of income in this country over the last 30 years, pretends that things have always been the way they are today, even pretends, via inference, that income distribution among Swedish descendants in this country is the same as in Sweden.

Yeh, sure, he's an artful propagandist- maybe he even believes his own bullshit, but it's still bullshit...

Do you have any reason to believe there is a high amount of income inequality amongst American Swedes? Or that things aren't "peachy" for American Swedes? I think he specifically DOES NOT extrapolate to the general US population. He's talking about Swedes here.

And you should be careful to put the burden on Brooks to disprove a negative. The real question is, does anyone have any proof that all these policy fights everyone has actually makes an impact on quality of life?
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
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I think the reason is the policies aren't that different, particularly how they affect most people. On the margins, ie sick people, extremely wealthy people, government policy differences might be more important.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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I think the reason is the policies aren't that different

This is an interesting point but it fits into Brooks' point. People on this board and around the country get all worked up. For example, they attack American policies as right-wing and Swedish policies as left-wing. He's saying "Let's all chill out a little. The consequences aren't that dramatic."

But it's probably true that it would be more interesting to look at a non-European country and its American emmigrants. As much as people say the US is fascist and Sweden is socialist, they really have the same model in most respects.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
Who say's we're whining? Some of us are doing more than just voting ;)
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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At the end of the day the take away from this article should about what the government can and can't do.

It can create an environment that fosters success and helps people to achieve that success.

It can not however make people succeed.

This brings us back to what I have said in the past.

The goal of the government should be to create equality of opportunity. i.e. create an environment where everyone who wants to succeed can succeed.

The goal should NOT be to attempt to create equality of outcome.

Sadly too many on the left are focused on the later and the idea that social justice is everyone being equal.
As Al Sharpton just said, roughly, that we won't achieve MLK's dream until ‘everything's equal in everybody's house'
http://www.breitbart.tv/al-sharpton...until-everything-is-equal-in-everybodys-house
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
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So how do you explain the fact that people of Swedish descent in both countries basically have the same quality of life?

So the Swedes never intergrated into our population like everyone else? I have a German name but am only 1/4 German. The article fails on that fact alone.