Poker help -- any advice on tournament play?

[DingDingDao]

A little background:
I've been playing live cash games at casinos (Vegas and L.A.) for over three years, almost entirely NL (some limit and omaha). I have very little experience in online play--I prefer live games. I consider my style to be tight-aggressive, and I've read most of the major poker books out there, although my playing style has been molded primarily from first-hand experience. I've only played a few tournaments, and I've made a few final tables, but I'm primarily a cash game player.

I'm headed to Vegas this weekend, and my wife and I thought it would be a nice change to give a tournament a shot (in the spirit of the recent conclusion of the WSOP). We're probably going to sit at a daily nooner at Caesar's Palace, NL $80+$15 (+1 $50 rebuy). I chose this tournament because the blinds start out relatively low, and the levels are the longest of any daily I've seen (40 min, compared to 20-30 for most other tourneys on the strip), so I'm fairly certain that blind pressure should be minimal (I don't want to sit at an all-in festival).

For you poker players who have experience in tournament play (preferably live, as opposed to online), what advice do you have for adapting my play from cash games to tournament play? Should I play tighter and more aggressively? Or do I need to loosen my starting hand requirements? Any advice is appreciated.

CLIFFS:
1) Cash game player taking a stab at tournament play
2) Advice?

Thanks all.

**Update**

My wife and I both played in a tournament at Caesar's Palace-- NL $80 + $50AO. 98 players to start, and we both made the final table! She finished in 8th and I got knocked out in 6th. We cashed for a little over $1100 between the two of us. Thanks for the advice guys :thumbsup:

 

[junkerman123]

A strategy that has worked for me to some extent is to establish a tendency at the beginning of the tournament (preferably that you're a tight player...that way you don't lose much at the beginning), and then after a little while, when people label you as tight in the back of their mind, totally stop playing with that tendency and just play all over the place, or however you usually play. In a tournament atmosphere, people are seeing a lot of faces that they don't know or recognize, so they will quickly label every player by the style that they play, or even the style they think they will play (if a guy is young, wearing sunglasses and has a baseball cap on backwards, people will often assume he plays loose and bluffs a lot, before they ever play a hand).

If you come out tight, and people think you're tight, you will be able to reverse and loosen up in the middle. People will think you're on a good run of hands and you'll be able to steal pots, keeping you alive pretty deep into the tournament (where you may end up in the money). Plus, if somebody decides to play against you, odds are they have a good hand because they will assume you have something good.

That's just a little strategy that I've used before when I went to Foxwoods around here, and it's worked for me (at least well enough for me to be around with the last 10-15% of the players most of the time). Keeping that in mind, you should do what you're comfortable with as well. If you play certain hands regularly, don't necessarily tighten up to the point where you don't play those hands...that may throw you off. And keep in mind that poker advice over the internet is about as useful as sex advice, so don't take anything I've said as gospel.

Good luck!

 

[iamme]

i enjoy tournaments more than ring games. cash games seem to require more patience with starting hands. most of my experience w/ tournaments is online, so that probably doesn't help much.

i'm still consider myself a beginner to poker, so i probably can't offer too much advice.

one thing i can impart is to keep an eye on your chip stack relative to those around you. with the blind increasing, you don't want to be on the bottom half of the table, when your cards are dry and blind stealing becomes more difficult.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I have never played a tourney at a consino in real life, but have played several at houses with 40+ people, and a lot of only tournaments as well. I dont like cash as much as a tourney, they are move fun, bigger payouts, and they even the playing field.

Somethings to keep in mind.

1. Chip stack. Be aware of how much you have at all times. If you are the chipleader you can afford to call some questionable hands to try and make some more. If you are small you are gonna need to play the short stack the best way possible..which usually involves putting people all in and hoping they fold when u dont have the best of it. Make sure you dont let yourself get blinded out. Make a stand with your short stack before you only have 2x the blinds.

2. Position. Position is more important in tourneys imo. Later in the tourney when the blinds are really high, try stealing blinds. This works real well if you do what junker mand said and play tight. When you are on the button or CO you can raise the blinds and hopefully take it down right there. Of course this depends on your read on the people in the blinds...if they are crazy and will call..or if they will fold to a good bet.

3. Style of play. Well this is all up to each person, but I kinda do what junkerman does. I play pretty tight, playing solid poker. Play the good starting hands that are known in poker, and play them when you have good position. Now I dont stick to it all the time, mixing things up in poker is a great way to get a lot of chips.

4. where do u want to finish. At some point i the tourney you are gonna have to realize that you are not exactly where you want to be. How much do you value 80 bucks. If you want to win and you havent gotten to the money yet but have no chips...make your move before the bubble. SOme people are scared to go out and if you can sense someone is like that you can take advantage of that. Of course if you really want to make the money, you should try for that instead of first.

5. Just read some more tourney books.

these are just my honest opinions.

 

[DingDingDao]

Originally posted by: junkerman123
A strategy that has worked for me to some extent is to establish a tendency at the beginning of the tournament (preferably that you're a tight player...that way you don't lose much at the beginning), and then after a little while, when people label you as tight in the back of their mind, totally stop playing with that tendency and just play all over the place, or however you usually play. In a tournament atmosphere, people are seeing a lot of faces that they don't know or recognize, so they will quickly label every player by the style that they play, or even the style they think they will play (if a guy is young, wearing sunglasses and has a baseball cap on backwards, people will often assume he plays loose and bluffs a lot, before they ever play a hand).

If you come out tight, and people think you're tight, you will be able to reverse and loosen up in the middle. People will think you're on a good run of hands and you'll be able to steal pots, keeping you alive pretty deep into the tournament (where you may end up in the money). Plus, if somebody decides to play against you, odds are they have a good hand because they will assume you have something good.

That's just a little strategy that I've used before when I went to Foxwoods around here, and it's worked for me (at least well enough for me to be around with the last 10-15% of the players most of the time). Keeping that in mind, you should do what you're comfortable with as well. If you play certain hands regularly, don't necessarily tighten up to the point where you don't play those hands...that may throw you off. And keep in mind that poker advice over the internet is about as useful as sex advice, so don't take anything I've said as gospel.

Good luck!

Thanks for the advice. I understand what you're saying about establishing a table image of being tight early, then changing gears and opening up a bit later on. The other thing you mentioned was about people stereotyping players by their appearance. I've used this to my advantage the last few times I was in a cardroom by wearing my hoodie, cap, sunglasses, and ipod mini (I know, cliche isn't it? ) I don't normally wear this kind of gear (usually it's just a t-shirt and my ipod), but you're right. Several players asked me how long I had been playing, so I told them exactly what they wanted to hear: "Oh, mostly online, I learned a lot by watching WSOP on TV, yada yada yada..." They saw me as dead money and I hammered on them for the better part of a few 10 hour sessions

 

[desteffy]

Go to a poker forum and post there:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/categories.php?Cat=

 

[KarmaPolice]

Originally posted by: desteffy
Go to a poker forum and post there:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/categories.php?Cat=

I readthat everyday...prob better then reading any book.

 

[DingDingDao]

Originally posted by: KarmaPolice
I have never played a tourney at a consino in real life, but have played several at houses with 40+ people, and a lot of only tournaments as well. I dont like cash as much as a tourney, they are move fun, bigger payouts, and they even the playing field.

Somethings to keep in mind.

1. Chip stack. Be aware of how much you have at all times. If you are the chipleader you can afford to call some questionable hands to try and make some more. If you are small you are gonna need to play the short stack the best way possible..which usually involves putting people all in and hoping they fold when u dont have the best of it. Make sure you dont let yourself get blinded out. Make a stand with your short stack before you only have 2x the blinds.

2. Position. Position is more important in tourneys imo. Later in the tourney when the blinds are really high, try stealing blinds. This works real well if you do what junker mand said and play tight. When you are on the button or CO you can raise the blinds and hopefully take it down right there. Of course this depends on your read on the people in the blinds...if they are crazy and will call..or if they will fold to a good bet.

3. Style of play. Well this is all up to each person, but I kinda do what junkerman does. I play pretty tight, playing solid poker. Play the good starting hands that are known in poker, and play them when you have good position. Now I dont stick to it all the time, mixing things up in poker is a great way to get a lot of chips.

4. where do u want to finish. At some point i the tourney you are gonna have to realize that you are not exactly where you want to be. How much do you value 80 bucks. If you want to win and you havent gotten to the money yet but have no chips...make your move before the bubble. SOme people are scared to go out and if you can sense someone is like that you can take advantage of that. Of course if you really want to make the money, you should try for that instead of first.

5. Just read some more tourney books.

these are just my honest opinions.

Thanks for the helpful pointers.

1) This is something I really need to work on. When I'm playing cash games, when I start to accumulate chips I slow down some (mostly in the interests of chip preservation). I reduce the number of starting hands, and I play them more aggressively, using my chipstack as a weapon. However, I know that in tourney play accumulation is more important than preservation, so I have to mentally change gears and open up a bit as my chipstack increases.

2) Thanks for the reminder about position. In cash games, the most successful sessions I've had involved identifying the loose-passive calling stations and hammering on them, and avoiding the sharks as much as possible--as such, position is still important, but definitely not nearly as large a concern as during tourney play.

3) Obviously, changing gears is important, but I'm going to try to stick to what I'm most comfortable with--tight, aggressive play. I'll mix up my betting strategy some, but I don't want to get caught in a tough situation with a subpar hand.

4) This is something I've read in several books (Cloutier's book comes to mind). He said the same thing you did--just before the bubble is the best time to accumulate chips, as people are afraid to get knocked out just before the money. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: desteffy
Go to a poker forum and post there:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/categories.php?Cat=

tagged

 

[DingDingDao]

Originally posted by: desteffy
Go to a poker forum and post there:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/categories.php?Cat=

Thanks for the link :thumbsup: :beer:

 

[pclstyle]

i'm going to vegas this weekend too; staying at the bel with the girlfriend.

she's promised not to sit at slots this time, as long as i bankroll her table play. sigh, we'll see how it goes.


good luck to you!

 

[KarmaPolice]

Originally posted by: pclstyle
i'm going to vegas this weekend too; staying at the bel with the girlfriend.

she's promised not to sit at slots this time, as long as i bankroll her table play. sigh, we'll see how it goes.


good luck to you!

this sounds like it could end badly.

 

[DingDingDao]

Originally posted by: pclstyle
i'm going to vegas this weekend too; staying at the bel with the girlfriend.

she's promised not to sit at slots this time, as long as i bankroll her table play. sigh, we'll see how it goes.


good luck to you!

You too :beer:

I'll be at Wynn myself, other than the time I'll be at the tourney at Caesar's. How's the action over at Bellagio?

 

[JS80]

Key to tourney play is to build a chip stack so that when the blinds go up you don't get screwed. Most people will be tight aggressive so you may want to be more loose to build chip stack; tight aggressive play throughout the whole tourney you get grinded out and the increase in blinds will kill you.

 

[DingDingDao]

Originally posted by: JS80
Key to tourney play is to build a chip stack so that when the blinds go up you don't get screwed. Most people will be tight aggressive so you may want to be more loose to build chip stack; tight aggressive play throughout the whole tourney you get grinded out and the increase in blinds will kill you.

Yeah, I had that problem in the most recent tourney I played. I made the final table, but I was so short-stacked that I went out in 8th place after going all-in on a small ace. The blind structure for the tourney is pretty favorable, though (4500 chips to start, blinds start at 25/50 w/40 min levels), so I'm hoping it'll favor skill over an all-in luck-fest.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: DingDingDao

Originally posted by: JS80
Key to tourney play is to build a chip stack so that when the blinds go up you don't get screwed. Most people will be tight aggressive so you may want to be more loose to build chip stack; tight aggressive play throughout the whole tourney you get grinded out and the increase in blinds will kill you.

Yeah, I had that problem in the most recent tourney I played. I made the final table, but I was so short-stacked that I went out in 8th place after going all-in on a small ace. The blind structure for the tourney is pretty favorable, though (4500 chips to start, blinds start at 25/50 w/40 min levels), so I'm hoping it'll favor skill over an all-in luck-fest.

Knowing when to be aggressive against tight players is the best skill to have. You have to know what the threshold is of the other player. This is how Stu Unger was so good. He had nothing but he knew you couldn't call $XXXX with your mid pair, and you didn't have the skill to read him.

 

[junkerman123]

Originally posted by: DingDingDao

Originally posted by: pclstyle
i'm going to vegas this weekend too; staying at the bel with the girlfriend.

she's promised not to sit at slots this time, as long as i bankroll her table play. sigh, we'll see how it goes.


good luck to you!

You too :beer:

I'll be at Wynn myself, other than the time I'll be at the tourney at Caesar's. How's the action over at Bellagio?

Good choice...the Wynn is sweet! You don't have an Amex Platinum by any chance....if you do, free upgrade.

 

[DingDingDao]

Originally posted by: junkerman123

Originally posted by: DingDingDao

Originally posted by: pclstyle
i'm going to vegas this weekend too; staying at the bel with the girlfriend.

she's promised not to sit at slots this time, as long as i bankroll her table play. sigh, we'll see how it goes.


good luck to you!

You too :beer:

I'll be at Wynn myself, other than the time I'll be at the tourney at Caesar's. How's the action over at Bellagio?

Good choice...the Wynn is sweet! You don't have an Amex Platinum by any chance....if you do, free upgrade.

No kidding? I'm staying on the poker player rate, I wonder if they'll upgrade me anyways...

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: junkerman123

Originally posted by: DingDingDao

Originally posted by: pclstyle
i'm going to vegas this weekend too; staying at the bel with the girlfriend.

she's promised not to sit at slots this time, as long as i bankroll her table play. sigh, we'll see how it goes.


good luck to you!

You too :beer:

I'll be at Wynn myself, other than the time I'll be at the tourney at Caesar's. How's the action over at Bellagio?

Good choice...the Wynn is sweet! You don't have an Amex Platinum by any chance....if you do, free upgrade.

Is there literature on this and/or provide me more info? I have amex plat.

 

[DingDingDao]

**Update in original post**

 

[theknight571]

I've been curious about some of these tournaments...

How long did your turnament last?

 

[DingDingDao]

Originally posted by: theknight571
I've been curious about some of these tournaments...

How long did your turnament last?

We started at noon with 10 tables, and the final table was set at about 6:15pm or so. The length of a tournament depends on a number of factors:

1) Starting chipstacks
2) Rebuys (or lack thereof)
3) Blind structure
4) Level duration
5) Size of field

The daily at Caesar's is very popular, as it provides a combination of large starting chipstack (4500 chips) and a great blind structure (25/50 to start, 40 minute levels). As such, it tends to last a bit longer (6-8 hours) as opposed to a lot of other dailies out there. Some of the other tourneys I've played had 20 minute blinds, resulting in rapidly increasing blind pressure that forced an all-in festival. Usually those kinds of tourneys are done in 3 hours or less. The problem with this kind of tournament is that it removes some of the skill from the poker, forcing people to get lucky to stay alive ahead of the blinds.

 

[z0mb13]

what time does this tournie start?

 

[DingDingDao]

Originally posted by: z0mb13
what time does this tournie start?

Caesar's Palace runs three daily tournaments, one at noon (the one we sat at, NL80/50RB), one at 7pm (NL120/100RB), and one at 11pm (NL80/50RB). There's a really comprehensive list of daily tournaments in Las Vegas here.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: DingDingDao

Originally posted by: z0mb13
what time does this tournie start?

Caesar's Palace runs three daily tournaments, one at noon (the one we sat at, NL80/50RB), one at 7pm (NL120/100RB), and one at 11pm (NL80/50RB). There's a really comprehensive list of daily tournaments in Las Vegas here.

Thank you!