Poker Hand

[amoeba]

Last post in this thread.

Think of it this way.

pretty much the only advantage of slowplaying a big pair preflop is that your opponents will hopefully flop a non ace single pair with a hand that they would have folded to a preflop raise.

thats it.

This advantage is not great enough to outweigh the benefits of raising the big pair.

 

[alexjohnson16]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: amoeba
we have to be not results oriented. Despite the fact that the outcome would have been the same, OP still should have raised preflop.

the only time when I would limp on the button with KK is if I was fairly certain one of the blinds would raise for me allowing me to reraise.

Basically what I'm saying is that the deception value of limping KK is not really worth it when compared to the fact that

1. your opponents now can literally have any 2 on the flop
2. your opponent gets a free flop and thus infinite implied odds
3. you get less money in the pot as a favorite

there are better ways of deception of your hand such as raising more hands when everyone folds to you on the button. I mean if the blinds are 2 tight players that fold almost all but the best hands, why would you not raise the button every hand?

anyways, all I'm going to say on the topic.

I appreciate your input since I am always trying to improve my game and I hope you will keep responding since I want understand your position better.

I definitely raise in various positions with questionable hands and I always raise with quality hands.

Generally, the only hands I slow play are AA and KK (under the right circumstances). I felt this was the right circumstance.

To discuss your points:

1) Absolutely agree. I am definitely taking a risk by giving them free cards. If they out draw me (A, two pairs or trips), then I will lose some chips. The chances of them drawing these hands are slim though.
2) Although this is true, I do not see the significance of it.
3) This is also true, but this is what I have found. If they have a good hand they will raise allowing me to re-raise. If not, I want them to get some part of the flop and call my post flop bet which they will almost always do if for no other reason than to stop me from stealing the blinds. If they fold, no harm done.

Slowplaying AA/KK preflop is generally always a mistake.

You want to get as much money in the pot as you can with those hands.

Do you have the hand history to this hand? There is a lot of information that can help people make better decisions, like blind level, stack sizes, structure, etc.

 

[amoeba]

Yes, you should really be more respectful to Alex, his suggestion about putting more info in to your posts is very good.

 

[hellokeith]

Garet,

Only way you could have got off this hand is if you are a good reader. The better reader you become, the less risky it is to play post flop. I would not consider myself a very good reader, so I try as much as possible to collect pots with as few dealt cards as possible.

But obviously there is no one exact right way to play every hand, because someone will pick up on how you are playing and use it to their advantage. Varied and risky play is sometimes necessary, even if you lose, so as to keep your opponents guessing.

 

[mpitts]

Originally posted by: hellokeith
Garet,

Only way you could have got off this hand is if you are a good reader. The better reader you become, the less risky it is to play post flop. I would not consider myself a very good reader, so I try as much as possible to collect pots with as few dealt cards as possible.

But obviously there is no one exact right way to play every hand, because someone will pick up on how you are playing and use it to their advantage. Varied and risky play is sometimes necessary, even if you lose, so as to keep your opponents guessing.

The thought of folding KK on a 388KT board is about as weak-tight as you can get. No "read" is going to put your opponent on quads, and even if you COULD put him on 88, the chances of you folding at any point in the hand is zero.

 

[alexjohnson16]

Amen, mpitts.

There is no reason you should ever, ever fold the nut full house, unless there are three of one card on the board, and still, it'd have to be read-dependant as any hand could be.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Dealt KK as dealer.

Everyone folds to me so I call hoping to trap one of the blinds.

SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 3s, 8h, 8c

BB checks and I check.

Turn: Kh

He checks, I bet pot. He calls.

River: 10d

He checks, I bet pot. He raises.

Calling would have almost put me all in, so I go all in. He calls.

He flips over 88.

I have 2nd to nuts and never figured him for a pocket pair let alone 4 of a kind. I thought at best he had an 8. How do I get away from that hand and not lose all my chips?

Phil Helmuth, is that you?? You got pwned plain and simple. You limped in preflop with kings and paid out for your stupidity.

 

[alexjohnson16]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Dealt KK as dealer.

Everyone folds to me so I call hoping to trap one of the blinds.

SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 3s, 8h, 8c

BB checks and I check.

Turn: Kh

He checks, I bet pot. He calls.

River: 10d

He checks, I bet pot. He raises.

Calling would have almost put me all in, so I go all in. He calls.

He flips over 88.

I have 2nd to nuts and never figured him for a pocket pair let alone 4 of a kind. I thought at best he had an 8. How do I get away from that hand and not lose all my chips?

Phil Helmuth, is that you?? You got pwned plain and simple. You limped in preflop with kings and paid out for your stupidity.

The limp really doesn't have anything to do with it. He'll go bust 99/100 times there, the one other time being the guy with 88 bets the flop and he has a strong enough read to know he's drawing to two outs.

 

[Tiamat]

thats poker for ya! Even the best players get played sometimes.

 

[Eeezee]

Stop playing the computer at poker then, it probably cheats

 

[UncleWai]

You people watch too much poker on TV and made the game sounds like nuclear physics.
First of all this is online poker, so you can't get any tells from facial expression of another person.
In the beginning, let us assume everyone players are rational and play according. For example doesn't go all-in with rags, know how to approximate pot odds, etc.
So when an ATOT poker "expert" claims that you should raise preflop with high pairs to chase off weak hands, this system of play becomes common knowledge.
I as the opponent, when I see someone raise me preflop. It could be he thinks I think he has a high pair and raises me preflop, therefore I will fold. Or, he thinks I will fold because when he raises me preflop will cause me to fold according to this common knowledge, therefore I should think he is bluffing me and therefore I called. There is no pure strategy in this play and I end up with a mixed strategy where I determine my odds with the current pot size and my cards. It just turns into a game of rock, paper, and scissor. Except in texas hold'em, even you won the rock paper scissor portion, you still aren't the winner (in poker, it would be you calling an all-in and got your pair of KKs against a pair of 88s, you get about 80% to win). Now it's left to luck to get you through.

In those high stake cash games played by pro players, I really doubt there is a person with a higher winning advantage over and other.

 

[dxkj]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: chorb
You don't, he had a good read on you and knew he had the better hand, and played you.

Suck up the loss and play again.

He had no read on me - he had no idea what I had. He didn't need to have any read since he had the nuts.

Actually to extract the maximum amount from your oponent, you need to have an idea of the strength of their hand, and gauge your betting on that... o therwise the 8's could make no cash

 

[chuckywang]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax
Dealt KK as dealer.

Everyone folds to me so I call hoping to trap one of the blinds.

SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 3s, 8h, 8c

BB checks and I check.

Turn: Kh

He checks, I bet pot. He calls.

River: 10d

He checks, I bet pot. He raises.

Calling would have almost put me all in, so I go all in. He calls.

He flips over 88.

I have 2nd to nuts and never figured him for a pocket pair let alone 4 of a kind. I thought at best he had an 8. How do I get away from that hand and not lose all my chips?

You don't. That's a cooler if I ever saw one.

 

[scootermaster]

Originally posted by: amoeba
we have to be not results oriented. Despite the fact that the outcome would have been the same, OP still should have raised preflop.

the only time when I would limp on the button with KK is if I was fairly certain one of the blinds would raise for me allowing me to reraise.

Basically what I'm saying is that the deception value of limping KK is not really worth it when compared to the fact that

1. your opponents now can literally have any 2 on the flop
2. your opponent gets a free flop and thus infinite implied odds
3. you get less money in the pot as a favorite

there are better ways of deception of your hand such as raising more hands when everyone folds to you on the button. I mean if the blinds are 2 tight players that fold almost all but the best hands, why would you not raise the button every hand?

anyways, all I'm going to say on the topic.

Finally, someone who knows what they're talking about. You should have raised preflop, and that's all there is to it. Your logic with limping is flawed.

People expect button raises, so in some sense, raising there actually disguises your hand. You could literally have any two cards. After all, you're the button. The good news is, if your raise is called, you can [hopefully] narrow the range of hands your opponents could have, assuming they're not total novices who'll call with anything. Another thing I haven't seen anyone address here is the fact that by not raising, you're allowing TWO opponents to enter in the pot. Someone in the SB might take a shot with, say, A3o or something. I don't know what the exact odds are, but something tells me you're not so much of a prohibative favorite against a hand with an ace and a hand with two live cards that you want to be getting cute here.

Also, you probably should have bet the flop. Why? To see where you're at. You're either way ahead there or way behind. If I remember correctly, the flop wasn't suited, so just a call here is VERY suspicious. Unless you're playing against the type of people who'd call (not bet, but call) with AK against that flop, you should certainly have bet, to see where you're at. When the King comes on the turn, that might be the time to check, letting Jacks, or Queens or whatever make their move. (Again, the question isn't how to not lose money on the hand. The question is how to play the hand correctly.

One move you might have tried against a weaker player is to only raise the minimum from the button. Sometimes that induces a re-raise, and with 88, you might figure that might happen. At that point you can really push as a large favorite.

Just some thoughts....see you guys at the tables.

 

[sandorski]

Use the Force Garet, use the Force.

People over analyze Poker. Certainly there's skill involved in knowing whether you got a hand to work with, but there's always that chance that someone else has that one combo to beat you. It's also not a given that you can find out either, that's just quackery. People bluff their way to winning, some get a killer hand, while others win with utter crap that's just better than someone elses crap.

Play the game, play the odds, enjoy the losses when you couldn't possibly lose.

 

[Maxspeed996]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: new2AMD
You had the only hand he could make money off of. His check on the river gave you an out by checking and showing down but you wanted it all.

That's true, but the expected value of checking is far less than the expected value of betting.

In this case, I am sure that my bet on the river was the correct play since there was only one hand that beat me and he showed absolutely no strength up to that point.

Exactly!! When your opponent has the BOSS hand , and he knows it....is he gonna come out the gate betting the farm? Hell no , he'll run off his money...you have to reel them in..and that's what he did....He knew his four 8's were gold...you don't count on trip kings like you had to come out swinging too , that's the type of hand you want to have to rake in the loot. The only thing better would be if someone else had two of something in the hole and their third card up on the flop....they would have gotten suckered in too...
Damn I miss playing poker.