Originally posted by: mpitts
Just remind yourself that you are thankful they are in the game. Never throw rocks in the pond.
Unless that donkey knocked you all out when they drew out.
Unless that donkey knocked you all out when they drew out.
My point was more along the lines of open trips with an A kicker is good enough for some people to go broke with.
Theres nothing you could do in this hand. It happens. The best pros would have gone bust here.
Your preflop play is pretty ugly, however. open limping the button with KK hoping to trap is a pretty bad move.
Those that are saying poker is all luck really don't know what they are talking about.
Your preflop play is pretty ugly, however. open limping the button with KK hoping to trap is a pretty bad move.
Those that are saying poker is all luck really don't know what they are talking about.
Only thing I see is you perhaps could have raised instead of calling (before the flop). Also, betting the pot, knowing that if he called you would be pot-committed, you probably should've just gone all-in instead.
But, I don't think you played it terribly. Hard to beat 4 of a kind, no matter where they show.
But, I don't think you played it terribly. Hard to beat 4 of a kind, no matter where they show.
raising preflop would not have driven out a hand like 88 and the hand would have played out the same but OP still should have raised preflop for other reasons.
I have already given my reasons for not raising pre-flop:
1) alter my play to keep my opponents off balance
2) exposed to at most 2 unknown hands.
3) chances of them hitting a hand on flop that beats me is slim (two pairs or trips)
4) if they hit any action on the flop they will likely overvalue it and give me more chips.
Why was it a bad play to slow play kings against SB and BB?
Truly if I folded after I was raised I would have been in OK shape. Not great but OK.
It wasn't as much pot commitment as it was I didn't believe he had the only hand that beat mine.
if you want to vary your play, raise with more hands from the button instead of limping a great hand like KK.
limping and trapping with a hand that usually leaves you with 1 pair is giving your opponent great (infinite) implied odds.
seriously, OP, you should stop worrying about the river as nobody can avoid it. Phil Ivey can't avoid it, Jesus can't avoid it but your preflop play is a serious leak.
limping and trapping with a hand that usually leaves you with 1 pair is giving your opponent great (infinite) implied odds.
seriously, OP, you should stop worrying about the river as nobody can avoid it. Phil Ivey can't avoid it, Jesus can't avoid it but your preflop play is a serious leak.
Exactly, unless you went all-in preflop, he was not going to fold with pocket 8 in the big blind. You were almost drawing dead after the flop (unless running Kings), by him checking hoping you catch a card that will improve you hand which you did. You played the hand correctly and just got unlucky. I don't anyone in there right mind could get away from that hand. Just shuffy up and deal for another game.
In this case, even if he had raised pre-flop, the outcome would have been the same. Limping on the button with KK is not a bad play if the next two players are tight players, right?
we have to be not results oriented. Despite the fact that the outcome would have been the same, OP still should have raised preflop.
the only time when I would limp on the button with KK is if I was fairly certain one of the blinds would raise for me allowing me to reraise.
Basically what I'm saying is that the deception value of limping KK is not really worth it when compared to the fact that
1. your opponents now can literally have any 2 on the flop
2. your opponent gets a free flop and thus infinite implied odds
3. you get less money in the pot as a favorite
there are better ways of deception of your hand such as raising more hands when everyone folds to you on the button. I mean if the blinds are 2 tight players that fold almost all but the best hands, why would you not raise the button every hand?
anyways, all I'm going to say on the topic.
the only time when I would limp on the button with KK is if I was fairly certain one of the blinds would raise for me allowing me to reraise.
Basically what I'm saying is that the deception value of limping KK is not really worth it when compared to the fact that
1. your opponents now can literally have any 2 on the flop
2. your opponent gets a free flop and thus infinite implied odds
3. you get less money in the pot as a favorite
there are better ways of deception of your hand such as raising more hands when everyone folds to you on the button. I mean if the blinds are 2 tight players that fold almost all but the best hands, why would you not raise the button every hand?
anyways, all I'm going to say on the topic.
iamme
Lifer
- Jul 21, 2001
- 21,058
- 3
- 0
Originally posted by: mpitts
My point was more along the lines of open trips with an A kicker is good enough for some people to go broke with.
would going all in on the river w/ A8 be a bad play in that situation? you're only up against one guy who showed no pre-flop strength. you flopped trips w/ top kicker. no flush or straight draws on the board.
yeah, while this hand is interesting in the sense that top boat vs 4 of a kind just doesn't happen that often, OP should seriously focus on other parts of his game as there are likely more important leaks than "whether I can figure out that my opponent has the very improbable nuts when I hold the second nuts"
After wading through all the crap in this thread, amoeba hits the nail on the head.
Some people on here have no clue what they're talking about.
Fold pre-flop; KK is only one pair and a single pair only wins like 10% of the time. Play more hands like 89 and 45 suited, they make straights and flushes something like 60% of the time.
Thanks for your input.
Unfortunately (unlike amoeba) you have added no value and just increased the "crap" to wade through.
I agree with this statement, but I find that I rarely get knocked out of tournaments through an all in play where I am behind.
I feel I am quite good at knowing when I am beaten and fold. In this case, I literally had no idea and I want to see if there are things I could do to try to determine I am up against 4 of a kind.
Oh, man, I better restate everything that he said. He's right. I said that. Then I slammed people in here who think they are the second coming of Doyle Brunson because they watch WSOP/WPT/HSP and beat Pokerstars play money SNGs with a 75% cashrate.
nope there really isn't. and if you had folded, you would have made a mistake, despite the fact that "this time" you would have been right.
you should play more cash games.
none of this play for hours and hours and then exit on one hand stuff.
I appreciate your input since I am always trying to improve my game and I hope you will keep responding since I want understand your position better.
I definitely raise in various positions with questionable hands and I always raise with quality hands.
Generally, the only hands I slow play are AA and KK (under the right circumstances). I felt this was the right circumstance.
To discuss your points:
1) Absolutely agree. I am definitely taking a risk by giving them free cards. If they out draw me (A, two pairs or trips), then I will lose some chips. The chances of them drawing these hands are slim though.
2) Although this is true, I do not see the significance of it.
3) This is also true, but this is what I have found. If they have a good hand they will raise allowing me to re-raise. If not, I want them to get some part of the flop and call my post flop bet which they will almost always do if for no other reason than to stop me from stealing the blinds. If they fold, no harm done.
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