- Jan 26, 2000
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For those in favor of these things, or at least have no concerns, your tax dollars at work
We are watching
We are watching
Poindexters Brilliant Idea
- Thread starter Hayabusa Rider
- Start date
Quis Custodiet ipsos custodes-Who shall guard the guards.
To do this will take some serious storage. DAMN
To do this will take some serious storage. DAMN
It is quite bothersome. I could not see it being all transactions, as that would a large flood of data. Plus it is an easily defeated system, just use cash.
- Jan 26, 2000
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Knowledge is not information. Is power a measure of amplitude or output? Is output only that which is good, or is evil not justnegative output? If as we read in another thread, man is evil and in need of grace, perhaps knowledge is the recognition that we know nothing and the greatest act of power is to smile.
Wasn't is like 5 counts of obstructing a Congressional investigation and a couple of counts of lying to Congress?
And, yes, I suppose Clinton's lying about oral sex was worse than lying about drugs-for-guns and its coverup.
For those of you not familiar with Mr. Poindexter's colorful past career within our government, read:
Executive Summary of the Walsh Report
NY Times: Iran funds found diverted to Contras
Iran Contra White House Email
You'd think we'd have learned something from this. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, how did it go again?
Executive Summary of the Walsh Report
NY Times: Iran funds found diverted to Contras
Iran Contra White House Email
You'd think we'd have learned something from this. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, how did it go again?
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
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Be interesting to see how putting this man in this position will be justified. Anyone who cares to can start trying now.
The government's next step would be to outlaw the use of cash for purchases over, say, $50 or $100 in the name of national security. Who is to stop them? If you object you will be labeled a possible threat to the U.S.
Edit: McCarthy was a saint comparted to what may come.
Edit: McCarthy was a saint comparted to what may come.
- Oct 28, 1999
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The biggest problem with this is who would be in charge of collecting all that information, and what kind of security would be in place to protect our Constitutional rights against unwarranted searches. Remember, Poindexter was convicted of lying to Congress about the Iran - Contra connection. The conviction was overturned on a technicality, but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of that sordid piece of Amercian history in cahoots with another scumbag, Ollie North, who should have been tried for treason. :disgust:
All we were doing, there, was shipping arms to the Ayatolah, sending the cash to the Contras. Of course, since it's a shame to deadhead an empty plane back from Central America, there is also evidence they were importing cocaine to continue financing their dirty black operations. I'd trust John Poindexter with my personal info about as far as I can throw any of you from where I'm sitting, right now. :|
All we were doing, there, was shipping arms to the Ayatolah, sending the cash to the Contras. Of course, since it's a shame to deadhead an empty plane back from Central America, there is also evidence they were importing cocaine to continue financing their dirty black operations. I'd trust John Poindexter with my personal info about as far as I can throw any of you from where I'm sitting, right now. :|
Well, comrades, I think it's time to vote in some libertarians (or whatever third party will restore our basic rights afforded to us by the constitution). This goes well beyond reasonable search and siezure. It ignores personal privacy.
This Central Authority to gather information will not stop with terrorism. I'm willing to bet in our lifetimes this information will be used in a manner we all will regret.
This Central Authority to gather information will not stop with terrorism. I'm willing to bet in our lifetimes this information will be used in a manner we all will regret.
Harvey, no one should be allowed to gather and puruse the information they will ultimate obtain. Clinton used the IRS and FBI files against political enemies. Bush opened up our medical records to just about everyone. They can't be trusted with this level of a hold over us. Period.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
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Many things trouble me about this database.
One of which is not Poindexter, or his past. As the article clearly points out, he will not be charged with maintaining or analyzing the data or lead investigations into what that data reveals. He, amongst others I'm sure, just "thought it up".
Should the fact that most of the geeks here commit theft every time they download music or software from Kazaa prohibit them from designing databases if they wish?
I wouldn't trust this guy with my personal info, but since he won't be privy to it anyway, what's the argument?
That aside, even the best of intentions won't help this "database" prevent jack schiznit. There's just too much data to be analyzed to even begin to be productive in aiding prevention of terrorism. At best it could be used in criminal investigations, but after the fact, not beforehand.
It's pie in the sky, and an expensive pie at that. No thanks John, I'll email my congressmen my concerns and urge them to cap this scheme in the ass.
One of which is not Poindexter, or his past. As the article clearly points out, he will not be charged with maintaining or analyzing the data or lead investigations into what that data reveals. He, amongst others I'm sure, just "thought it up".
Should the fact that most of the geeks here commit theft every time they download music or software from Kazaa prohibit them from designing databases if they wish?
I wouldn't trust this guy with my personal info, but since he won't be privy to it anyway, what's the argument?
That aside, even the best of intentions won't help this "database" prevent jack schiznit. There's just too much data to be analyzed to even begin to be productive in aiding prevention of terrorism. At best it could be used in criminal investigations, but after the fact, not beforehand.
It's pie in the sky, and an expensive pie at that. No thanks John, I'll email my congressmen my concerns and urge them to cap this scheme in the ass.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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A concept discussed in some detail by Robert A. Heinlein in his book, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, written ~1985.
Not just the use of cash for purchases, but the mere possession of cash is becoming quasi-illegal. It is well documented how police and federal agents seize cash from people without charge or arrest.
It's easy to blame people like GW and Poindexter, but the fact is that we, the American people, are allowing this to happen. In return of a false feeling of security, we are handing over our freedoms and privacy left and right, and we elect the people who are doing this do us.
Yet the reality is that tracking every purchase and recording every detail will do absolutely nothing to make our nation safer. The amount of data will be too immense to be able to isolate and prevent another incident like 9/11. It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. What it will do is invade our privacy. What it will do is give them control over us, because they will know our every little secret. They will know about the time you left work early because "you felt sick" and then went to the ballgame. They will know about all those little things that aren't illegal that they can still hold against you. What it will do is foster corruption and abuse as never seen before.
"What may come" is worse than most of us can possibly imagine. The sky IS falling... call me what you will. But I tell you right now, no one will be guarding the guards. They will be above the law. Hell, they already are. But it's not too late...
edit: typo
This didn't start with Clinton. Richard Nixon illegally used the FBI to spy on his political enemies, and J. Edgar Hoover kept confidential files on presidents and others long before then. Too bad none of them ever got ahold of that pic of him in a dress.
There are some conditions where I think a database is valid, including info on documented illegal purchases of weapons and other destructive materials, such as biological materials, chemicals with strong offensive potential, and miltary grade explosives. Such records are already required. Making them centrally available to all law enforcemen, with requirements for Constitutionally appropriate judicial oversight (warrants), makes sense. Otherwise, one LEO's in one jurisdiction would not have access to information critical to catching criminals in another.
How do you figure that he will not have access to the data when he is the director of the entire agency? That doesn't make very much sense.
EDIT: Not to mention that Bush will be able to appoint and remove employees of this agency pretty much at will, so there is no reason to believe anyone working under Mr. Poindexter will have any less ambiguous intentions than he. It's a bad situation all around.
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