Plumbing torch recommendations

[bamx2]

I am preparing to do some major plumbing modifications of a couple of houses and want to updrade from my 25+ year old propane torch and separate spark lighter. I would like to get a newer one that has a hotter flame and and has the built-in igniter. It is my understanding the "new" MAP fuel in the yellow cylinders (real MAPP gas is around not anymore) does not burn significanty hotter than standard propane. I am even halfway tempted to look for a used air acetylene torch setup - aka Turbo Torch (probably overkill but nice to have to use for other types of projects (like brazing that rarely come up). I wonder what the plumbing pros are using these days ? Recommendations are appreciated .

 

[NetWareHead]

every plumber I have run across uses acetylene; the pros that do this every day dont mess with slower propane. burns hotter and can make your solders quicker. practice soldering on some scrap copper so yo can get used to the hotter temps first. plus can melt lead (with the right tip) should you need to pack a joint.

get a used acetylene setup off of ebay or craigslist

 

[Greenman]

Odd, around here no one drags an acetylene torch around, as copper over 1" isn't used.

 

[bamx2]

So what torches are they using ?

Odd, around here no one drags an acetylene torch around, as copper over 1" isn't used.

 

[lxskllr]

Had my hot water heater replaced this year, and the plumber used a torch like I have. Just a plain disposable cylinder, and a regular tip like you get at a hardware store.

 

[Raizinman]

I use just your standard basic propane torch that costs around $15 at Home Depot. If you want to upgrade, you can purchase the trigger start torch for about $40. I've plumbed numerous houses with these tools.

 

[NetWareHead]

Odd, around here no one drags an acetylene torch around, as copper over 1" isn't used.

Had my whole house replumbed with copper and pex. Copper was all done w acetylene torch; pipe and fittings of all sizes. Guy had a 40 cubic ft cylinder, maybe 2 feet tall that was enough for the whole house. He also melts lead for drains, fittings etc..., so he has another need for it.

I could maybe see a new plumber who doesn't do much copper buying a homeowner sized propane torch from home depot for the here and there jobs that need it. Would be annoying to run out of propane mid-solder or show up with a box of cylinders if needing to do an entire house. I guess it depends on the plumber and work he does.

 

[readymix]

acetylene B-tank with a turbotorch if doing many hundreds of fittings. MC-tank for portability.

turbotorch is really a brand name with many different tip types.

 

[Greenman]

Had my whole house replumbed with copper and pex. Copper was all done w acetylene torch; pipe and fittings of all sizes. Guy had a 40 cubic ft cylinder, maybe 2 feet tall that was enough for the whole house. He also melts lead for drains, fittings etc..., so he has another need for it.

I could maybe see a new plumber who doesn't do much copper buying a homeowner sized propane torch from home depot for the here and there jobs that need it. Would be annoying to run out of propane mid-solder or show up with a box of cylinders if needing to do an entire house. I guess it depends on the plumber and work he does.

I use a self igniting torch. The last house I plumbed used 2 tanks with enough left over for a new bathroom on the next project. The tanks are small, I always have an extra in my truck, and you can buy them at any hardware store.
I used to own a B tank with a 15 foot hose, it just wasn't particle to drag a 50 pound set up under a house. The hose tended to get damaged on the job as well.

There is no need to melt lead on the job anymore, lead and oakum connections are history. On the very rare occasion that you have to connect into an old hub, you use soil seal or a similar product. The only time you would use copper over 1" is in commercial work or altering an old system. Beyond that the material cost for copper DWV is insane.

 

[paperfist]

My bro-in-law, a plumber uses MAPP gas with self igniting head.

 

[NetWareHead]

Greenman where are you located? I'm in NH and my plumber still uses lead & oakum. Not even that old of a guy; early 50s I think. True they don't make the old hub and spigot cast iron pipe anymore, now it's hubless sealed with clamps. He still seals drains with lead & oakum exclusively. Puts the biggest tip he has for acetylene torch and melts it in a big ladle then packs it in with a set of irons. Tells me he prefers it that way; won't ever leak according to him. Showed me a specific shower drain from Kohler which can be sealed two ways lead oakum or with a gasket. He even seals closet flanges this way.

 

[Greenman]

Greenman where are you located? I'm in NH and my plumber still uses lead & oakum. Not even that old of a guy; early 50s I think. True they don't make the old hub and spigot cast iron pipe anymore, now it's hubless sealed with clamps. He still seals drains with lead & oakum exclusively. Puts the biggest tip he has for acetylene torch and melts it in a big ladle then packs it in with a set of irons. Tells me he prefers it that way; won't ever leak according to him. Showed me a specific shower drain from Kohler which can be sealed two ways lead oakum or with a gasket. He even seals closet flanges this way.

I'm in California, and probably need a permit and certification just to buy lead.
Your guy is old school, I haven't seen lead and oakum used here for at least 30 years, and then it was only to tie into an existing system.
What we do with old DWV is either rip it out, or cut out a section and add an ABS fitting with band clamps. Cast iron is only used for sound control on the second floor waste, vents are always ABS. We always convert to ABS below the first floor if the second floor is done in iron. We absolutely never use copper DWV anymore, at $30 a foot for 3" pipe and $20 to $30 per fitting, you burn through a lot of cash in a big hurry.

 

[paperfist]

Greenman where are you located? I'm in NH and my plumber still uses lead & oakum. Not even that old of a guy; early 50s I think. True they don't make the old hub and spigot cast iron pipe anymore, now it's hubless sealed with clamps. He still seals drains with lead & oakum exclusively. Puts the biggest tip he has for acetylene torch and melts it in a big ladle then packs it in with a set of irons. Tells me he prefers it that way; won't ever leak according to him. Showed me a specific shower drain from Kohler which can be sealed two ways lead oakum or with a gasket. He even seals closet flanges this way.

Wow he is old school. I've only heard of tails of lead & oakum. I thought lead was off limits?

Does he do body work too? They used to fix cars with a similar process.

 

[NetWareHead]

Ive seen that type of body work you describe. Pretty much painting and shaping molten lead on to a mold/form or sometimes right onto the car. Awful work as you are immersed in lead fumes and smoke. but the results of someone who knows that trade are impressive. but nah, he doesnt do body work as far as I know. He is a 1 man operation and keeps pretty busy, in spite of his high hourly rate. really particular and picky but so far, all of his work is top notch.

Here is another plumber I found on youtube that uses lead to seal a cast iron closet flange. Ironically this guy is also from new England, south of Boston from what I can tell. https://youtu.be/ZfbLeXFucE8?t=942

Here is the shower drain Im talking about http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/105266_2.pdf 2 sets of instructions including lead/oakum. Whats insane about this is that molten lead can be poured to seal a pvc pipe to the drain! Not only limited to cast iron. Never thought that was possible...

 

[bamx2]

I have been looking for used air-acetylene B-tank setup since my first post but haven't found one so far.(right condition/price) and I need get to something soon. I guess that I will purchase one of the newer style trigger start swirl flame torches (probably - http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-TS8000KC-Premium-Torch-Kit-336638/205683985 as I can just go pick it up at the nearby HD store) which should burn hotter than my oil pencil flame propane torch and give it ago. It is really too bad that they don't make real MAPP gas any more . I still would like find an air-acetylene rig but looks like it will take some time.

EDIT - FWIW - again there is no real MAPP anymore and it was replaced by Propylene ( aka MAP-PRO ). I found an interesting link comparing the types of propane torches and fuels - http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?48365-Propane-Torch-Comparison

 

[paperfist]

Ive seen that type of body work you describe. Pretty much painting and shaping molten lead on to a mold/form or sometimes right onto the car. Awful work as you are immersed in lead fumes and smoke. but the results of someone who knows that trade are impressive. but nah, he doesnt do body work as far as I know. He is a 1 man operation and keeps pretty busy, in spite of his high hourly rate. really particular and picky but so far, all of his work is top notch.

Here is another plumber I found on youtube that uses lead to seal a cast iron closet flange. Ironically this guy is also from new England, south of Boston from what I can tell. https://youtu.be/ZfbLeXFucE8?t=942

Here is the shower drain Im talking about http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/105266_2.pdf 2 sets of instructions including lead/oakum. Whats insane about this is that molten lead can be poured to seal a pvc pipe to the drain! Not only limited to cast iron. Never thought that was possible...

Thanks for the link! I never seen that done in action before.

I would have liked to see him pour the lead in. Why does he have to tap it with the 'chisel' after the lead is set?

He didn't sound that old either, interesting that someone is passing down this technique.

Yeah, but back then why then did that kind of body work the paint fumes the were breathing in probably did them in before the lead fumes. You can't use it on today's cars anyway cause the metal isn't thick enough. You'd warp the panels with that much heat.

hmm I don't see how you can mix lead and PVC either. Though the lead is malleable I guess it can conform to any shape.

 

[NetWareHead]

Thanks for the link! I never seen that done in action before.

I would have liked to see him pour the lead in. Why does he have to tap it with the 'chisel' after the lead is set?

He didn't sound that old either, interesting that someone is passing down this technique.

Yeah, but back then why then did that kind of body work the paint fumes the were breathing in probably did them in before the lead fumes. You can't use it on today's cars anyway cause the metal isn't thick enough. You'd warp the panels with that much heat.

hmm I don't see how you can mix lead and PVC either. Though the lead is malleable I guess it can conform to any shape.

It does conform, mostly. The tapping of the lead is called caulking, the last step in sealing the joint. Done while the lead is still hot and malleable (not molten) as a way to force the lead down and spread out against the sides of the joint, smoothing out any defects from when it was poured. This (along with the oakum) makes the joint air and water tight.

I also wondered how you could use molten lead to seal a drain to PVC but my guy swears by it. Says the pipe gets very hot, but doesnt catch fire and needs to cool before working with it again.

Youtube has a number of videos on this, check out how they pour horizontal and vertical lead oakum joints.

 

[Subyman]

Around here people use "MAPP" self ignite. Cheap set up and it gets the job done. No real reason for anything more IMO especially if you need to wiggle through a crawl space.