Please tell me how does one who is on welfare afford Nextel?

[gopunk]

Even though I understand your concern and argument, you are going down a slippery slope deductive logic which brings out the worst scenario's in most cases. I believe we need welfare but not in the way we know of it today. But a more refined, sophisticated, managable system where help is given to people who really need it. Our posts are really futile in this matter because we probably won't do anything about it. Sad however.. I fear my hands are tied down because of my inability to voice my opinion to the politician and the dirt bag who robs the citizens of their hard earned tax dollars.

i guess my question is... why should people be forced to help others?

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Even though I understand your concern and argument, you are going down a slippery slope deductive logic which brings out the worst scenario's in most cases. I believe we need welfare but not in the way we know of it today. But a more refined, sophisticated, managable system where help is given to people who really need it. Our posts are really futile in this matter because we probably won't do anything about it. Sad however.. I fear my hands are tied down because of my inability to voice my opinion to the politician and the dirt bag who robs the citizens of their hard earned tax dollars.

i guess my question is... why should people be forced to help others?

My answer would be, they shouldn't.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Even though I understand your concern and argument, you are going down a slippery slope deductive logic which brings out the worst scenario's in most cases. I believe we need welfare but not in the way we know of it today. But a more refined, sophisticated, managable system where help is given to people who really need it. Our posts are really futile in this matter because we probably won't do anything about it. Sad however.. I fear my hands are tied down because of my inability to voice my opinion to the politician and the dirt bag who robs the citizens of their hard earned tax dollars.

i guess my question is... why should people be forced to help others?

It's a form of insurance, I guess...but involuntary insurance, which kinda sucks.

 

[KGB1]

Originally posted by: Nocturnal

Originally posted by: KGB

Originally posted by: Nocturnal
Where I live most of the people on welfare have tons of gold bracelets, drive Navigators, Explorers, Expeditions, on dubs, sporting a TAP OUT sticker on the rear windshield.

Well actually there is something we can do about it if you're willing to do it. Write to your senator, congressman. About the faults and the daily mismanagement of the welfare system. Since you voted for them and such. People on welfare usually have no american citizenship, maybe a green card. They have no tax record, no loyalty and didn't even vote for the guy thats indirectly showing tax dollars in their pockets.

Senate and Congress will wise up to this.. only when their backs are against the wall and the baby boom generation retires and SS money will have to be gotten from somewhere.. hey why not cut welfare to non americans.

Do you truly believe that writing to your congress man will get anything done? They themselves sit on their asses all day long doing nothing. Once they're elected with their lies and bullcrap they don't do jack. IMHO.

Well I became eligible to vote in 2000. Just in time for the national presidential election. I didn't, now 3 years later I am kicking myself in the butt because; I could have decided to express my position and could have encouraged to vote for gore or someone else. My freedom was taken for granted and so many other americans who can vote but didn't, and let the right wingers who were supported by their voters take over.

Lesson learned... even if you don't think you have a choice, you do. Not the most optimal choice; but better than what the other choice could be. So next election...city/state/national I'm letting my voice be heard. The internet gave me a voice and I just stare at a monitor and write jargon and look for pron. Well I don't think I can stand by in the sideline any longer ... I don't know how else to continue 😕

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: KGB

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: KGB

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: kranky
One possibility is that some people on welfare lie about being eligible.

i don't know what's wrong with those people, do they just not have any shred of decency in them? i can't imagine just walking around knowing i was cheating my fellow citizens out of their money.

Technically we cheated ourselves (or our ancestors cheated us) by allowing a welfare system to begin with. Regardless of the person's need, they should hold no claim of entitlement over what another person worked to have. The flaws of the system itself are just the tip of the iceberg; the idea behind the system is fundamentally flawed.

It is not flawed. Sure the US is a republic and everyone works for their own share, not like other nations in europe where govt basically provides everything. But my point is the welfare system is setup so people can use it for a period of time to get back up on their feet, not get hooked onto the system, draw from its resources and tell everyone how to abuse that system so you can stash away cash to buy that mercedes.

I realize that, but you are not seeing the whole picture. If somebody needs help to get back on their feet, how does that entitle them to what I've earned? I had to work for it, they don't. Who is the government to say that the money I worked hard for should go to somebody who didn't earn it because they need it more. Do you see where this logical train ends? If you have a nice car and I don't have a car, should the government sell your car and give you back a cheap car so they can buy one for me too? What would make you want to work for a car if it would just get taken away to buy cars for those that didn't have them? What would motivate the people who are providing all those who stake a claim based on their "need" upon the hard work of other people that they are not entitled to?

Even though I understand your concern and argument, you are going down a slippery slope deductive logic which brings out the worst scenario's in most cases. I believe we need welfare but not in the way we know of it today. But a more refined, sophisticated, managable system where help is given to people who really need it. Our posts are really futile in this matter because we probably won't do anything about it. Sad however.. I fear my hands are tied down because of my inability to voice my opinion to the politician and the dirt bag who robs the citizens of their hard earned tax dollars.

You've asserted your belief that we need this system, however you have no logical argument for it. How does any benefit it could possibly provide overshadow the fact that you are robbed of your freedom in that what you've earned and thus rightfully have claim on is distributed to those who have done nothing to earn it? The problems with the welfare system in this country are direct incarnations of the flaws in the theory behind the system. The kind of people that get on welfare tend to be for the most part the dishonest, lazy, irresponsible, unmotivated people who produce nothing yet consume without penalty. Do you think that they could not earn money if they worked hard enough? Poor decisions on their part or whatever unfortunate situation that they've found themselves in does not obligate the rest of the country to support them. I know what it is like to be poor and I know what it is like to work my way up and pay for what I get.

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Even though I understand your concern and argument, you are going down a slippery slope deductive logic which brings out the worst scenario's in most cases. I believe we need welfare but not in the way we know of it today. But a more refined, sophisticated, managable system where help is given to people who really need it. Our posts are really futile in this matter because we probably won't do anything about it. Sad however.. I fear my hands are tied down because of my inability to voice my opinion to the politician and the dirt bag who robs the citizens of their hard earned tax dollars.

i guess my question is... why should people be forced to help others?

Bingo.

 

[KGB1]

^^ So you really don't care about your neighbor and help him/her when they need it. Beit through welfare or even short of handing them money. I'm a religious man, in religion giving is the best virtue and kindest thing to do. Not to feel superior to the one you gave to, but to give hope and help them. Guidance is what is missing from those people.

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: KGB
^^ So you really don't care about your neighbor and help him/her when they need it. Beit through welfare or even short of handing them money. I'm a religious man, in religion giving is the best virtue and kindest thing to do. Not to feel superior to the one you gave to, but to give hope and help them. Guidance is what is missing from those people.

It is not altruism when it's forced.

 

[kranky]

Letters to your Congressman/Senator absolutely count. To say that they don't care once they've been elected is missing the key point - they want to be re-elected. If they see the tide of public opinion turning towards more stringest welfare eligibility, they will adopt that position because they don't want to lose the next election.

Many welfare recipients vote because Democrats are very good about organizing people to get to the polls. They bring buses and load people up and drive them to the polls. This is easy to do in densely populated areas.

I'll never forget watching an interview during the Gore/Bush Florida recount fiasco when one lady voter who wanted to vote again said on TV "I should get another chance! They told us to vote for the third guy!" (Gore was the guy either above or below the "third guy").

She explained that when the bus came to take people to the polls, the Democratic precinct leader on the bus told everyone how to vote, but apparently she screwed up the instructions. Instead of being embarrassed that she was told how to vote, she felt that it was sufficient reason to allow her another chance to vote because she was given wrong information.

 

[KGB1]

^^ What was that famous quote from Benjamin Franklin. "In life there are two things certain; death and taxes."

So you are going against our founding father's statement

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: KGB
^^ So you really don't care about your neighbor and help him/her when they need it. Beit through welfare or even short of handing them money. I'm a religious man, in religion giving is the best virtue and kindest thing to do. Not to feel superior to the one you gave to, but to give hope and help them. Guidance is what is missing from those people.

i might agree, but why should i be forced to be a nice and kind person? i mean, if i wanted to be a nice and kind person, i could always donate to a charity, couldn't i? i don't think it's crazy to say that if i'm not doing hurtful things to other people, i should be left alone... if i want to help others, i'll find a way to do it, but i don't need it forced out of me.

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: KGB
^^ What was that famous quote from Benjamin Franklin. "In life there are two things certain; death and taxes."

So you are going against our founding father's statement

When Ben Franklin lived, there was no welfare. Or income tax for that matter. The only taxes in existence payed essentially for the military and other minor federal/state concerns that were far from social programs.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: KGB
^^ So you really don't care about your neighbor and help him/her when they need it. Beit through welfare or even short of handing them money. I'm a religious man, in religion giving is the best virtue and kindest thing to do. Not to feel superior to the one you gave to, but to give hope and help them. Guidance is what is missing from those people.

There is an immense difference between giving to charity and government forced wealth redistribution.

If you became eligible to vote in 2000, I would assume you are 21. No offense but at that age, you are "young, dumb, and full of cvm". If you cannot see the difference between voluntarily donating money/time to the needy and being forced to give up some of the fruits of your labors, I suggest you take a few political science and political history classes.

 

[KGB1]

I'm not trying to convert you guys or say what you think is wrong. Certainly its different from my belief system. But you cannot stand out in a crowd and tell that poor person or needy person to suck a nut before you lay down 1 red cent to his pocket. It's humanity, we all have our families, but we ourselves are part of a greater family that need to support each other. Its in our nature to help just as it is to deceive, use, exploit things also. There is always a compromise.

Ironically, even though I am religious... I see that its religion that separates and breeds hate and selfishness.

 

[KGB1]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: KGB
^^ So you really don't care about your neighbor and help him/her when they need it. Beit through welfare or even short of handing them money. I'm a religious man, in religion giving is the best virtue and kindest thing to do. Not to feel superior to the one you gave to, but to give hope and help them. Guidance is what is missing from those people.

There is an immense difference between giving to charity and government forced wealth redistribution.

If you became eligible to vote in 2000, I would assume you are 21. No offense but at that age, you are "young, dumb, and full of cvm". If you cannot see the difference between voluntarily donating money/time to the needy and being forced to give up some of the fruits of your labors, I suggest you take a few political science and political history classes.

Been there done that... passed with flying colors. By your sig I see that you're republican. Hope you don't take my comments as far leftists or that I regret that Bush is our president. I don't regret it, I regret not voicing my opinions. Which we all could agree everyone should do.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: KGB
I'm not trying to convert you guys or say what you think is wrong. Certainly its different from my belief system. But you cannot stand out in a crowd and tell that poor person or needy person to suck a nut before you lay down 1 red cent to his pocket. It's humanity, we all have our families, but we ourselves are part of a greater family that need to support each other. Its in our nature to help just as it is to deceive, use, exploit things also. There is always a compromise.

Ironically, even though I am religious... I see that its religion that separates and breeds hate and selfishness.

Well, it's my turn to get flamed but I could and would say something like that.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: KGB

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: KGB
^^ So you really don't care about your neighbor and help him/her when they need it. Beit through welfare or even short of handing them money. I'm a religious man, in religion giving is the best virtue and kindest thing to do. Not to feel superior to the one you gave to, but to give hope and help them. Guidance is what is missing from those people.

There is an immense difference between giving to charity and government forced wealth redistribution.

If you became eligible to vote in 2000, I would assume you are 21. No offense but at that age, you are "young, dumb, and full of cvm". If you cannot see the difference between voluntarily donating money/time to the needy and being forced to give up some of the fruits of your labors, I suggest you take a few political science and political history classes.

Been there done that... passed with flying colors. By your sig I see that you're republican. Hope you don't take my comments as far leftists or that I regret that Bush is our president. I don't regret it, I regret not voicing my opinions. Which we all could agree everyone should do.

Actually I'm a registered Independent and am more of a Libertarian than a Republican. If you are referencing the Presidential results link, it is simply my generic response to folks that claim the election was stolen.

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: KGB
I'm not trying to convert you guys or say what you think is wrong. Certainly its different from my belief system. But you cannot stand out in a crowd and tell that poor person or needy person to suck a nut before you lay down 1 red cent to his pocket. It's humanity, we all have our families, but we ourselves are part of a greater family that need to support each other. Its in our nature to help just as it is to deceive, use, exploit things also. There is always a compromise.

Ironically, even though I am religious... I see that its religion that separates and breeds hate and selfishness.

What we are discussing is in direct contradiction; both cannot be true. If somebody held a gun to your head and told you to sponsor a child, that would not be humanity. You would not be doing it out of the good of your heart. Do you see the difference? There is nothing wrong with your church helping the poor or donating to World Vision out of altruism or human concern. Being forced to by the government is a different story makes it no longer good will, just submission.

Also, deceit and exploitation are not human nature. Human nature is survival, and that is met by working and earning your way in this country. Choosing to exploit or deceive instead is a choice. Our nature is not to blame, we all have the same "nature" and we are not all cheaters and exploiters.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: KGB
I'm not trying to convert you guys or say what you think is wrong. Certainly its different from my belief system. But you cannot stand out in a crowd and tell that poor person or needy person to suck a nut before you lay down 1 red cent to his pocket. It's humanity, we all have our families, but we ourselves are part of a greater family that need to support each other. Its in our nature to help just as it is to deceive, use, exploit things also. There is always a compromise.

Ironically, even though I am religious... I see that its religion that separates and breeds hate and selfishness.

if it's our nature, then why do we need to be forced to do it?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: KGB
I'm not trying to convert you guys or say what you think is wrong. Certainly its different from my belief system. But you cannot stand out in a crowd and tell that poor person or needy person to suck a nut before you lay down 1 red cent to his pocket. It's humanity, we all have our families, but we ourselves are part of a greater family that need to support each other. Its in our nature to help just as it is to deceive, use, exploit things also. There is always a compromise.

Ironically, even though I am religious... I see that its religion that separates and breeds hate and selfishness.

the hate and selfishness would be there without religion. religion is merely a convenient vehicle.

 

[psianime]

I knew some kids at my school who got free lunches but drove brand new BMW's that their parents bought them. Go figure.

 

[KGB1]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: KGB
I'm not trying to convert you guys or say what you think is wrong. Certainly its different from my belief system. But you cannot stand out in a crowd and tell that poor person or needy person to suck a nut before you lay down 1 red cent to his pocket. It's humanity, we all have our families, but we ourselves are part of a greater family that need to support each other. Its in our nature to help just as it is to deceive, use, exploit things also. There is always a compromise.

Ironically, even though I am religious... I see that its religion that separates and breeds hate and selfishness.

if it's our nature, then why do we need to be forced to do it?

Because were lazy and probably wouldn't do it ourselves, and that's why we have represtative democracy rather than a direct democracy.

What we are discussing is in direct contradiction; both cannot be true. If somebody held a gun to your head and told you to sponsor a child, that would not be humanity. You would not be doing it out of the good of your heart. Do you see the difference? There is nothing wrong with your church helping the poor or donating to World Vision out of altruism or human concern. Being forced to by the government is a different story makes it no longer good will, just submission. Also, deceit and exploitation are not human nature. Human nature is survival, and that is met by working and earning your way in this country. Choosing to exploit or deceive instead is a choice. Our nature is not to blame, we all have the same "nature" and we are not all cheaters and exploiters

But what draws you to give the example of using violence to help others? "Human nature is survival" Survival right? How do we go about doing that? I think a good deal of selfishness and cooperativeness go's along well together. We survive because we do exploit and use things but just at the same time work together to get through it. Your boss does not pay you cuz he likes you, its because you work for your cause while, at the same time you help his(bosses)... which eventually work its way up to the ceo's and such to survive and prosper. But there's always someone left behind, and is we can help them, we should and not be obligated by gov't or religion to do so either. Maybe I'm being to optimistic anyway 🙂

 

[KGB1]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: KGB
I'm not trying to convert you guys or say what you think is wrong. Certainly its different from my belief system. But you cannot stand out in a crowd and tell that poor person or needy person to suck a nut before you lay down 1 red cent to his pocket. It's humanity, we all have our families, but we ourselves are part of a greater family that need to support each other. Its in our nature to help just as it is to deceive, use, exploit things also. There is always a compromise.

Ironically, even though I am religious... I see that its religion that separates and breeds hate and selfishness.

the hate and selfishness would be there without religion. religion is merely a convenient vehicle.

Valid point... hate, greed etc can be traced back to the greeks where no organized religion of what we know todays exists. But it's a good way of explaining things to naive minds.

 

[imported_Papi]

Originally posted by: kranky
One possibility is that some people on welfare lie about being eligible.

I think its more than just a "possibility."

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: KGB

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: KGB
I'm not trying to convert you guys or say what you think is wrong. Certainly its different from my belief system. But you cannot stand out in a crowd and tell that poor person or needy person to suck a nut before you lay down 1 red cent to his pocket. It's humanity, we all have our families, but we ourselves are part of a greater family that need to support each other. Its in our nature to help just as it is to deceive, use, exploit things also. There is always a compromise.

Ironically, even though I am religious... I see that its religion that separates and breeds hate and selfishness.

if it's our nature, then why do we need to be forced to do it?

Because were lazy and probably wouldn't do it ourselves, and that's why we have represtative democracy rather than a direct democracy.

What we are discussing is in direct contradiction; both cannot be true. If somebody held a gun to your head and told you to sponsor a child, that would not be humanity. You would not be doing it out of the good of your heart. Do you see the difference? There is nothing wrong with your church helping the poor or donating to World Vision out of altruism or human concern. Being forced to by the government is a different story makes it no longer good will, just submission. Also, deceit and exploitation are not human nature. Human nature is survival, and that is met by working and earning your way in this country. Choosing to exploit or deceive instead is a choice. Our nature is not to blame, we all have the same "nature" and we are not all cheaters and exploiters

But what draws you to give the example of using violence to help others? "Human nature is survival" Survival right? How do we go about doing that? I think a good deal of selfishness and cooperativeness go's along well together. We survive because we do exploit and use things but just at the same time work together to get through it. Your boss does not pay you cuz he likes you, its because you work for your cause while, at the same time you help his(bosses)... which eventually work its way up to the ceo's and such to survive and prosper. But there's always someone left behind, and is we can help them, we should and not be obligated by gov't or religion to do so either. Maybe I'm being to optimistic anyway 🙂

It was not an example of violence, just being forced. Instead of holding a gun to your head perhaps consider being hauled off to jail, because that's what would happen if you didn't pay your taxes. Selfishness and cooperative behavior are to the benefit of our survival, but cooperating in circumstances in which we gain nothing is not. That is not a value for value arrangement when I give and you take and I get nothing in return, you see? A more accurate illustration than you portrayed would be to say my boss does not pay me because I need money. He pays me because of the work I do for him which he needs and is willing to trade his value (money) for mine (work). If this were on the same ideological plain as welfare, he would be forced to give me a job because I needed it, not because of the skills I had to offer him.