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Please stop using the incorrect term, they aren't pro-life, they are pro-birth.

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I don't understand. If I didn't know better I'd say you agreed with me.



If I were perfectly consistent I'd say that the child in her womb is made no less human by the circumstances of its conception. However, in truth I'm conflicted on this subject.



Regardless of my choice, it says nothing about whether or not the fertilized eggs are human beings. If I were to ask you in this scenario to choose between your daughter, or 100 strangers, your answer one way or the other would say nothing about the humanity of either party.

1. We agree that a Man murdering another Man is wrong
2. You are conflicted, because your position is flawed.
3. You are avoiding the question, because your position is flawed.

At the very least you recognize that there are exceptions to your otherwise dogmatically held position. That's why my arbitrary distinctions are more reasonable than the idea that Aborting anything after Conception is Murder.
 
...That's very confusing. The mother is choosing to deliberately end the life of her child, and you're saying it's not her fault the child won't survive?



Of course there's a reason - because the alternative is killing an innocent human being.



Neither should breathing, or walking, or being able-bodied. Yet society calls upon us to do our duty for society's sake all the time. The price of living in society is that it may compel you to do things at times.

I look at it this way, a naked man shows up in your house during a snow storm. You should have the right to expel him from your house immediately, regardless of the fact that he will most certainly die out there.

At the same time we should also teach compassion and humanity, but we should not make laws forcing it out of people.
 
“Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you."

Oh for fucks sake, nowhere in there is a reference to an unborn child or abortion.

Here is another translation which makes it clearer:

Can a woman forget her baby who nurses at her breast? Can she withhold compassion from the child she has borne? Even if mothers were to forget, I could never forget you!

Wanna try again? Why is it that atheists know far more about the Bible than Christians? This is just embarrassing.

Regarding the "do not murder" commandment, it is vague enough to be completely useless. Genocide is not murder according to the Bible, beating your slave to death is not murder according to the Bible as long as the slave takes long enough to die, gutting your kid and burning him on an altar is not murder according to the Bible as long as you sacrificing him to God (Japtheth), etc.... Give me the Biblical definition of murder. That is the ENTIRE point of this discussion. You will fail because there is no comprehensive one in the Bible.
 
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I'll entertain challenges to the interpretation of it. But I still find it strange. If not a constitutional mandate, it seems a well supported general value here.

I don't think he wants to acknowledge your post since he now feels stupid. I don't know how he doesn't know this is already in the constitution. This is basically saying the words "Separation of church(religion) and state(USA)" which are the words from another well known document.
 
So I think I understand your position now. It's not the 15-80% of your children dying in utero that's a problem it's the "deliberate " portion that's the problem.

You are not responsible for their dying by trying to have children unless you deliberately took action by using Plan B, or Ru486, etc.

That's correct. People are responsible for what they can directly control.

If that's the case if you did something that had a 15-80% chance of death of one of your born kids would you feel not responsible the same way if they died?

Of course I would. That's not a risk I would ever take, even with a 1% chance of death.

However this in stark ethical contrast to the case of embryos being killed as a result of failed implantation or genetic abnormalities. I can try to impregnate my wife but I can't control the actual processes involved with conception.

Look, full disclosure: I've spent the last two hours in this thread. I gotta get some lunch, and some work done.
 
I don't think he wants to acknowledge your post since he now feels stupid. I don't know how he doesn't know this already that its in the constitution. This is basically saying the words "Separation of church(religion) and state(USA)" which are the words from another well known document.

I didn't address it because I thought it would be nitpicky. He said the constitution "expressly" separates church and state. It doesn't. It does so by implication and interpretation.
 
I think it's strange that, in a country whose constitution expressly separates church and state, the argument for or against abortion rights might rest on a particular religion's text.

Separation of church and state only works when both sides respect it, the abortion debate would have been no more than a molehill instead of the mountain it currently is thanks to some overly zealous leftists using the IRS to go after bigotry and racism in Bob Jones University, it would have been better to let the pigs play in their pigpen and stay out of government affairs but certain leftists thought they must wash pigs of their sins, little did they know in doing so they left the door open so those pigs will try to use the same government to wash the rest of society of what they see as sins, abortion being one of the most important.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5502785
Although various Roman Catholic groups denounced the ruling, and Christianity Today complained that the Roe decision "runs counter to the moral teachings of Christianity through the ages but also to the moral sense of the American people," the vast majority of evangelical leaders said virtually nothing about it; many of those who did comment actually applauded the decision. W. Barry Garrett of Baptist Press wrote, "Religious liberty, human equality and justice are advanced by the Supreme Court abortion decision." Indeed, even before the Roe decision, the messengers (delegates) to the 1971 Southern Baptist Convention gathering in St. Louis, Missouri, adopted a resolution that stated, "we call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother." W.A. Criswell, former president of the Southern Baptist Convention and pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, expressed his satisfaction with the Roe v. Wade ruling.

"I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person," the redoubtable fundamentalist declared, "and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed."

The Religious Right's self-portrayal as mobilizing in response to the Roe decision was so pervasive among evangelicals that few questioned it. But my attendance at an unusual gathering in Washington, D.C., finally alerted me to the abortion myth. In November

1990, for reasons that I still don't entirely understand, I was invited to attend a conference in Washington sponsored by the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a Religious Right organization (though I didn't realize it at the time). I soon found myself in a conference room with a couple of dozen people, including Ralph Reed, then head of the Christian Coalition; Carl F. H. Henry, an evangelical theologian; Tom Minnery of Focus on the Family; Donald Wildmon, head of the American Family Association; Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention; and Edward G. Dobson, pastor of an evangelical church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and formerly one of Jerry Falwell's acolytes at Moral Majority. Paul M. Weyrich, a longtime conservative activist, head of what is now called the Free Congress Foundation, and one of the architects of the Religious Right in the late 1970s, was also there.

In the course of one of the sessions, Weyrich tried to make a point to his Religious Right brethren (no women attended the conference, as I recall). Let's remember, he said animatedly, that the Religious Right did not come together in response to the Roe decision. No, Weyrich insisted, what got us going as a political movement was the attempt on the part of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to rescind the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones University because of its racially discriminatory policies.

Bob Jones University was one target of a broader attempt by the federal government to enforce the provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Several agencies, including the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, had sought to penalize schools for failure to abide by antisegregation provisions. A court case in 1972, Green v. Connally, produced a ruling that any institution that practiced segregation was not, by definition, a charitable institution and, therefore, no longer qualified for tax-exempt standing.

The IRS sought to revoke the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones University in 1975 because the school's regulations forbade interracial dating; African Americans, in fact, had been denied admission altogether until 1971, and it took another four years before unmarried African Americans were allowed to enroll. The university filed suit to retain its tax-exempt status, although that suit would not reach the Supreme Court until 1983 (at which time, the Reagan administration argued in favor of Bob Jones University).

Initially, I found Weyrich's admission jarring. He declared, in effect, that the origins of the Religious Right lay in Green v. Connally rather than Roe v. Wade. I quickly concluded, however, that his story made a great deal of sense. When I was growing up within the evangelical subculture, there was an unmistakably defensive cast to evangelicalism. I recall many presidents of colleges or Bible institutes coming through our churches to recruit students and to raise money. One of their recurrent themes was,We don't accept federal money, so the government can't tell us how to run our shop—whom to hire or fire or what kind of rules to live by.

The IRS attempt to deny tax-exempt status to segregated private schools, then, represented an assault on the evangelical subculture, something that raised an alarm among many evangelical leaders, who mobilized against it.

For his part, Weyrich saw the evangelical discontent over the Bob Jones case as the opening he was looking for to start a new conservative movement using evangelicals as foot soldiers. Although both the Green decision of 1972 and the IRS action against Bob Jones University in 1975 predated Jimmy Carter's presidency, Weyrich succeeded in blaming Carter for efforts to revoke the taxexempt status of segregated Christian schools. He recruited James Dobson and Jerry Falwell to the cause, the latter of whom complained, "In some states it's easier to open a massage parlor than to open a Christian school."

Weyrich, whose conservative activism dates at least as far back as the Barry Goldwater campaign in 1964, had been trying for years to energize evangelical voters over school prayer, abortion, or the proposed equal rights amendment to the Constitution. "I was

trying to get those people interested in those issues and I utterly failed," he recalled in an interview in the early 1990s. "What changed their mind was Jimmy Carter's intervention against the Christian schools, trying to deny them tax-exempt status on the basis of so-called de facto segregation."

During the meeting in Washington, D.C., Weyrich went on to characterize the leaders of the Religious Right as reluctant to take up the abortion cause even close to a decade after the Roe ruling. "I had discussions with all the leading lights of the movement in the late 1970s and early 1980s, post–Roe v. Wade," he said, "and they were all arguing that that decision was one more reason why Christians had to isolate themselves from the rest of the world."

"What caused the movement to surface," Weyrich reiterated,"was the federal government's moves against Christian schools." The IRS threat against segregated schools, he said, "enraged the Christian community." That, not abortion, according to Weyrich, was what galvanized politically conservative evangelicals into the Religious Right and goaded them into action. "It was not the other things," he said.

Ed Dobson, Falwell's erstwhile associate, corroborated Weyrich's account during the ensuing discussion. "The Religious New Right did not start because of a concern about abortion," Dobson said. "I sat in the non-smoke-filled back room with the Moral Majority, and I frankly do not remember abortion ever being mentioned as a reason why we ought to do something."

During the following break in the conference proceedings, I cornered Weyrich to make sure I had heard him correctly. He was adamant that, yes, the 1975 action by the IRS against Bob Jones University was responsible for the genesis of the Religious Right in

the late 1970s. What about abortion? After mobilizing to defend Bob Jones University and its racially discriminatory policies, Weyrich said, these evangelical leaders held a conference call to discuss strategy. He recalled that someone suggested that they had

the makings of a broader political movement—something that Weyrich had been pushing for all along—and asked what other issues they might address. Several callers made suggestions, and then, according to Weyrich, a voice on the end of one of the lines said, "How about abortion?" And that is how abortion was cobbled into the political agenda of the Religious Right.

The abortion myth serves as a convenient fiction because it suggests noble and altruistic motives behind the formation of the Religious Right. But it is highly disingenuous and renders absurd the argument of the leaders of Religious Right that, in defending the rights of the unborn, they are the "new abolitionists." The Religious Right arose as a political movement for the purpose, effectively, of defending racial discrimination at Bob Jones University and at other segregated schools. Whereas evangelical abolitionists of the nineteenth century sought freedom for African Americans, the Religious Right of the late twentieth century organized to perpetuate racial discrimination. Sadly, the Religious Right has no legitimate claim to the mantle of the abolitionist crusaders of the nineteenth century. White evangelicals were conspicuous by their absence in the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. Where were Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham on August 28, 1963, during the March on Washington or on Sunday, March 7, 1965, when Martin Luther King Jr. and religious leaders from other traditions linked arms on the march from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama, to stare down the ugly face of racism?

Falwell and others who eventually became leaders of the Religious Right, in fact, explicitly condemned the civil rights movement. "Believing the Bible as I do," Falwell proclaimed in 1965, "I would find it impossible to stop preaching the pure saving gospel

of Jesus Christ, and begin doing anything else—including fighting Communism, or participating in civil-rights reforms." This makes all the more outrageous the occasional attempts by leaders of the Religious Right to portray themselves as the "new abolitionists" in an effort to link their campaign against abortion to the nineteenth century crusade against slavery.
 
I can try to impregnate my wife but I can't control the actual processes involved with conception.
You can with a contraceptive. Do you take issue with the usage of contraceptives to prevent the birth of a child? How is that any different than terminating a pregnancy?
 
Actually they do support killing these folks; just not until they've suffered and been abused and finally became completely unhinged and turned into criminals.

THEN they want to kill them.
lol Oh the hypocrisy of someone willing to kill criminals but not babies!
 
That's like saying pro-gun people are pro killing. Supporting someone's right to chose or bear arms doesn't mean they condone what choice someone makes or someone choses to kill with a gun.
This is what you (and lots on the left) are missing about my statement. I am pro gun; that doesn't mean I want everyone to have a gun, it simply means I support guns being legal and available to law abiding adult citizens of sound mind. I am pro abortion; that doesn't mean I want everyone to have an abortion, it simply means I support abortions being legal and available to law abiding adult citizens of sound mind. These euphemisms (on both sides) are nothing more than attempt attempt to dishonestly win points for one's side. Substituting 'killing' for 'gun' is no different for substituting 'choice' or 'life' for 'abortion'.

Call both sides what they are: pro gun and anti gun, pro abortion and anti abortion.
 
This is what you (and lots on the left) are missing about my statement. I am pro gun; that doesn't mean I want everyone to have a gun, it simply means I support guns being legal and available to law abiding adult citizens of sound mind. I am pro abortion; that doesn't mean I want everyone to have an abortion, it simply means I support abortions being legal and available to law abiding adult citizens of sound mind. These euphemisms (on both sides) are nothing more than attempt attempt to dishonestly win points for one's side. Substituting 'killing' for 'gun' is no different for substituting 'choice' or 'life' for 'abortion'.

Call both sides what they are: pro gun and anti gun, pro abortion and anti abortion.
You have difficulty with people bringing heavy doses of emotion to the equation when you state things like 'pro-abortion' though. I do agree with you, there's even a not-so-subtle inference included with 'anti-abortion', since anyone disagreeing with the viewpoint must enjoy killing babies. Pro-abortion won't win votes, even if it's a more technically correct term.
 
lol Oh the hypocrisy of someone willing to kill criminals but not babies!

You should think of it as William Lane Craig does, and this is verbatim:
Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God's grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation. We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven's incomparable joy.
He was speaking of genocide in this case, but it is apt for abortion as well.

If you are a Christian and you care about souls in heaven, you should be on the side of your most famous apologist. For a Christian, opposition to abortion is ridiculous on a theological basis. You are literally fighting to get more souls into hell.
 
That's correct. People are responsible for what they can directly control.
First feel free to not respond. My lunch is about up so I'll be working too.

I'd consider the decision to try and get pregnant as something my wife and I have direct control over which includes all possible outcomes

  • 1 or multiple live births
  • Natural miscarriage
  • Abortion
  • Just not getting pregnant


When pro-life folks say those who have sex must be responsible for getting pregnant it can appear hypocritical if at the same time they say they are not responsible for other outcomes.

Of course I would. That's not a risk I would ever take, even with a 1% chance of death.

But it is a risk you said you will take with the unborn. This a significant instance of treating the unborn differently than the born, which can seem hypocritical when stating that the law should treat them the same.

However this in stark ethical contrast to the case of embryos being killed as a result of failed implantation or genetic abnormalities. I can try to impregnate my wife but I can't control the actual processes involved with conception.

As I've said I think that's a cop out. My concern is keeping my child safe

For me the risk of pregnancy was acceptable because until there's a brain functioning something close to a born child the fetus was still only potentially a child. By the 20th week the risk of spontaneous miscarriage is down to only 1-3%.

We also planned our children while we were younger to reduce risk.
 
just sadness that our society has become so callous that we can think of no better alternative than to kill an unborn child.
We can think of plenty better alternatives. The moral question is whether we have the right to impose such better alternatives on pregnant women.
 
lol Oh the hypocrisy of someone willing to kill criminals but not babies!
That is an amazingly dumb comparison, no matter what ones beliefs are in this debate. It amazes me the things people think are clever.

"You hypocrite! You want to execute the maniac that killed X number of people in a vile and violent way (the most guilty among mankind)... but you're in favor or not killing an unborn human??! (the most innocent!) ! How can anyone not see the blazing hypocrisy!??!"

Such a dumb wanna-be 'gotcha' that is.

Reminds me of in the immigration debate, the people that think it's clever to post pictures of native Americans and some dumb meme. Yeah, of ALL people who had an unchecked "immigration problem" nearly wipe them out and almost totally destroy their cultures! BRILLIANT example! 😀
 
You should think of it as William Lane Craig does, and this is verbatim: He was speaking of genocide in this case, but it is apt for abortion as well.

If you are a Christian and you care about souls in heaven, you should be on the side of your most famous apologist. For a Christian, opposition to abortion is ridiculous on a theological basis. You are literally fighting to get more souls into hell.
As a Christian, I would not presume to know the fate of aborted babies' souls. Personally I prefer to think they are reincarnated, given a chance to experience mortal life on Earth. I know the Catholic Church used to maintain that babies too young to have been baptized couldn't go to Heaven because they had not been christened, so they were in Limbo instead. I've heard that the Catholic Church has since canceled Limbo (presumably due to lack of interest) but I've not heard if the babies there were automatically promoted.

Speaking of religious views, someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe that Orthodox Jews still maintain that a baby gets her soul when she draws her first breath. If they are correct - and Jesus Himself said that He came not to break the Law but to complete it - then the entire abortion debate is moot from a theological standpoint.

In any case, I prefer to avoid those who wish to kill me to save my soul.
 
That is an amazingly dumb comparison, no matter what ones beliefs are in this debate. It amazes me the things people think are clever.

"You hypocrite! You want to execute the maniac that killed X number of people in a vile and violent way (the most guilty among mankind)... but you're in favor or not killing an unborn human??! (the most innocent!) ! How can anyone not see the blazing hypocrisy!??!"

Such a dumb wanna-be 'gotcha' that is.

Reminds me of in the immigration debate, the people that think it's clever to post pictures of native Americans and some dumb meme. Yeah, of ALL people who had an unchecked "immigration problem" nearly wipe them out and almost totally destroy their cultures! BRILLIANT example! 😀
lol Yup. On both counts.
 
Agreed. Terrified of Muslims, terrified of having your guns stripped away, terrified of the dark shadow creeping across Mayberry, terrified of Mexicans, terrified God will send you to hell... Control your fears folks. Shit is out of hand!
lol As opposed to the noble fears of seeing a cross, being called 'he' simply for having a penis, hearing a viewpoint with which you disagree, having to share a building with someone whose color you find abhorrent, not receiving a trophy for showing up, not having someone else pay for your health care/day care/education/housing/cell phone/broadband . . .
 
In any case, I prefer to avoid those who wish to kill me to save my soul.

That is completely nuts. If abortion sent you to heaven, it would be no contest for me. Send me straight to heaven please. I could then spend the rest of eternity watching 99% of those on earth being selected for eternal burning in hell.

You seriously believe that a nearly guaranteed ticket to an ETERNITY hell is worth being born for?
 
[QUOTE="Atreus21, post: 39135942, member:]
Neither should breathing, or walking, or being able-bodied. Yet society calls upon us to do our duty for society's sake all the time. The price of living in society is that it may compel you to do things at times.[/QUOTE]

this made me laugh. duty to breath!! this is not a requirement.
 
We can think of plenty better alternatives. The moral question is whether we have the right to impose such better alternatives on pregnant women.
The moral question really is the crux of the debate. For me, the moral imperative is the protection of the children of society defining a child as occurring at the state of conception. From that, it logically follows other moral imperatives follow, or are subordinate to, the first.
 
I find the distinction of before and after birth as some line in the sand of when we can force the will of parents to be needlessly complicated.

The inevitability of an unborn fetus becoming a child is inarguable, so for all intents and purposes, a pregnancy results in a child, and aborting a pregnancy removes a child from earth. Terminating pregnancy is simply a palatable, but arbitrary distinction of when it is okay to abandon offspring. 1-3 months in womb through a vacuum tube or eviscerator,? Okay. 6-7 months through aspiration? Okay.1-2 months out of womb in a dumpster? Not okay. Yet the pre-births ended up there anyways, or at least in a medical waste dumpster, but again these are arbitrary distinctions that only serve to make us feel better about the true nature of what we are doing.

I do not believe in the right of society to conscript a mother into child-rearing against their will, and so therefore I am pro-abortion as well as pro-abandonment. I cannot logically argue for the ability to do one and not the other. The mother at all times has dominion over herself and therefore we cannot force child-rearing simply because the child is born. We need to have a more accepting environment of women who do not want their children, born or unborn, so that they may find homes that do want them. I am not anti-child, I am just pro free will, and pro acceptance.
Damned well said. This at its heart should be the debate - not whether killing the baby is wrong (it is), but whether the State should have the right to prevent this by doing something else wrong - forcing the mother to give up part of her body and part of her life to nurture another person. After a baby is born, I believe that the mother (and indeed, everyone) has the moral obligation to ensure that baby's safety, up to turning it over to someone who will preserve its life. But before the baby is born, the State should have no moral authority to force her to nurture it any more than the State should have the moral authority to force her to give someone a kidney.
 
The moral question really is the crux of the debate. For me, the moral imperative is the protection of the children of society defining a child as occurring at the state of conception. From that, it logically follows other moral imperatives follow, or are subordinate to, the first.
But in order to carry out that mandate, the State needs must take away the freedom of every pregnant woman from the state of conception, for the fetus is at great risk from myriad factors from that point forward. That would provide the maximum practical protection for the children, but it is also completely incompatible with a free society since it completely removes the woman's freedom for the baby's benefit. Worse, it mandates that she dedicate her body to its nourishment. I can't imagine much worse than spending nine months nurturing the child of one's rapist, yet the baby is equally as innocent as any other.

Personally, I don't see any practical way to protect the life of a pre-viable baby while protecting the freedom of the mother. After the baby is viable outside of the womb, certainly the State has an interest in protecting it, and we at least pay lip service to that by restricting late term abortions. But before that point, protecting the baby means enslaving the mother. If the State must commit one evil to prevent another, sure it should err on the side of doing nothing. Better for the State to commit evil through inaction than to commit evil directly, I think.
 
That is completely nuts. If abortion sent you to heaven, it would be no contest for me. Send me straight to heaven please. I could then spend the rest of eternity watching 99% of those on earth being selected for eternal burning in hell.

You seriously believe that a nearly guaranteed ticket to an ETERNITY hell is worth being born for?
I don't think one can appreciate Heaven with experiencing Earth. Even Jesus had to experience life as a mortal man to appreciate the souls he was sent to save.
 
You have difficulty with people bringing heavy doses of emotion to the equation when you state things like 'pro-abortion' though. I do agree with you, there's even a not-so-subtle inference included with 'anti-abortion', since anyone disagreeing with the viewpoint must enjoy killing babies. Pro-abortion won't win votes, even if it's a more technically correct term.
Agreed, but there SHOULD be heavy doses of emotion when considering to what degree we should condone killing babies, or enslaving women for those babies' benefit. Both are mighty serious acts with strong practical and moral consequences, and there are no easy choices here. Instead of embracing this conundrum with the seriousness it demands, we have one side pretending that if you aren't pro-abortion then you are against choice and the other side pretending that if you aren't anti-abortion then you are against life itself. That cheapens the debate IMHO.

Although it does at least offer some levity, since the side calling itself pro-choice fights to eliminate all choice in so many areas and the side calling itself pro-life (and usually, pro-individual and small government as well) fights to give the State the right to remove life from those it deems as criminals. Hypocrisy, thy name is human.
 
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