Please help Problem starting car (1992 Corolla)

[LTC8K6]

Have you replaced the ignition/starter relay?

https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1275409&parttype=3804

http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_Relay_3.jpg

 

[runzwithsizorz]

On a new battery, a load of .25v would be quite large. Turning on the highbeams/headlights on my car drops the battery voltage by that amount so long as the load is present. The reason why I mentioned those parameters is because when you open the car door, the electronics in the car turn on, putting a load on the battery along with other stuff.

You can play the isolation game by removing the fuses for the alarm, accessory 12v outlet, radio, etc. and see if the car loses charge after 12 hours.

Twenty five HUNDREDTH'S is quite large? Also, I said a loss of, *as much as*, .25v, over a 10+ hour period, not a load of, ("so long as the load is present"). The only things that run with this car parked is a clock, and radio presets, and don't they use a capacitor storage? Then again, it might explain the loss of 5 one hundredths of a volt since yesterday at 3:00 PM. The thing I keep looking at, is that a mere fraction of a volt, within mere seconds will start the car. If a component, or wiring were to blame, would it not take more? Think I will try what LTC8K6 suggested and disconnect the battery when the wife comes home from work for the next couple of days. If there is no real loss of voltage, I will then use your isolation technique. Together, we will solve this!

 

[bruceb]

Did you try new battery cables yet ? ? ? Also, try to swap the electrical part of the Ignition Switch, even with one from a salvage yard. The contacts in them do go bad now and then and can cause all types of oddball issues.

 

[tortillasoup]

Twenty five HUNDREDTH'S is quite large? Also, I said a loss of, *as much as*, .25v, over a 10+ hour period, not a load of, ("so long as the load is present"). The only things that run with this car parked is a clock, and radio presets, and don't they use a capacitor storage? Then again, it might explain the loss of 5 one hundredths of a volt since yesterday at 3:00 PM. The thing I keep looking at, is that a mere fraction of a volt, within mere seconds will start the car. If a component, or wiring were to blame, would it not take more? Think I will try what LTC8K6 suggested and disconnect the battery when the wife comes home from work for the next couple of days. If there is no real loss of voltage, I will then use your isolation technique. Together, we will solve this!

If it's not a parasitic draw then you're just unlucky with the battery but everything indicates it's a strong parasitic draw.

Also the reason I mention the radio and playing the isolation game is because sometime when electronics malfunction, they create a strong parasitic draw, especially through something like the radio. As for you thinking a loss of .25v isn't a lot of power lost over a 10 hour period, you would be wrong. A 12V lead acid battery's primary power storage capacity is between 11.8v and 12.7V. A loss of .25v would mean a loss of 30% of capacity in a span of 10 hours which is quite large. But also, on a new lead acid battery, any electrical load that can bring a battery down from 12.7V to 12.5v is considered a strong electrical load especially if removing said load lets the battery recover to 12.7V. Now if the battery doesn't recover its voltage after like 10 minutes of applying said "heavy load" then that means you just removed the surface charge of the battery and there is a possibility the battery isn't in new like condition anymore (assuming it had been previously fully charged).

 

[runzwithsizorz]

If it's not a parasitic draw then you're just unlucky with the battery but everything indicates it's a strong parasitic draw.

Also the reason I mention the radio and playing the isolation game is because sometime when electronics malfunction, they create a strong parasitic draw, especially through something like the radio. As for you thinking a loss of .25v isn't a lot of power lost over a 10 hour period, you would be wrong. A 12V lead acid battery's primary power storage capacity is between 11.8v and 12.7V. A loss of .25v would mean a loss of 30% of capacity in a span of 10 hours which is quite large. But also, on a new lead acid battery, any electrical load that can bring a battery down from 12.7V to 12.5v is considered a strong electrical load especially if removing said load lets the battery recover to 12.7V. Now if the battery doesn't recover its voltage after like 10 minutes of applying said "heavy load" then that means you just removed the surface charge of the battery and there is a possibility the battery isn't in new like condition anymore (assuming it had been previously fully charged).

Sorry for MY misunderstanding, .25v is not much of a draw, (and yes, we both know that draw would ordinarily be measured in amps) however, a .25v LOSS is significant! Wife ran errands yesterday until noon, I tested 12.37v at 3:00, 12.32v this morning at 7:30, and 12.30v just now. Should this trend continue I may have to jump her tomorrow morning so she can get to work. *I* do not know the threshold of where a non-start occurs on this vehicle, but *WE* do know it occurs at 12.19v. Problem seems to be intermittent ? Consider she drove 2 hours to her sisters, and could not restart after 2 hours parked, but could after 10 days. Also consider that, not often, but sometimes by pumping/playing with the clutch pedal I can get it to start. I will continue to test, and replace parts, and keep you informed. Tortillasoup, it is clear to me that you have knowledge on this subject, not many would even know of the term, "surface charge".
Please sir, stand by, and monitor this thread, -----

 

[Zenmervolt]

Sorry for MY misunderstanding, .25v is not much of a draw, (and yes, we both know that draw would ordinarily be measured in amps) however, a .25v LOSS is significant! Wife ran errands yesterday until noon, I tested 12.37v at 3:00, 12.32v this morning at 7:30, and 12.30v just now. Should this trend continue I may have to jump her tomorrow morning so she can get to work. *I* do not know the threshold of where a non-start occurs on this vehicle, but *WE* do know it occurs at 12.19v. Problem seems to be intermittent ? Consider she drove 2 hours to her sisters, and could not restart after 2 hours parked, but could after 10 days. Also consider that, not often, but sometimes by pumping/playing with the clutch pedal I can get it to start. I will continue to test, and replace parts, and keep you informed. Tortillasoup, it is clear to me that you have knowledge on this subject, not many would even know of the term, "surface charge".
Please sir, stand by, and monitor this thread, -----

12.19 volts is very low. It's something like only 30% state of charge. 12.3 volts is a 50% state of charge. This is assuming you have a battery in good health.

You have a HUGE load on your battery somewhere.

ZV

 

[ISAslot]

My 87 Tercel has a similar issue.
When starting sometimes it will just click and the clock on the radio dims. If i keep trying it will eventually start. It doesn't seem to be as bad if the battery is freshly charged. I'm about to purchase a new ignition switch to see if that solves it.

 

[RLGL]

Why not troubleshoot the starting system prior to throwing money away?
This could be a solenoid, loose or dirty battery cable ends, corroded cables and on and ....

 

[runzwithsizorz]

why not troubleshoot the starting system prior to throwing money away?
This could be a solenoid, loose or dirty battery cable ends, corroded cables and on and ....

read the entire thread

 

[runzwithsizorz]

12.19 volts is very low. It's something like only 30% state of charge. 12.3 volts is a 50% state of charge. This is assuming you have a battery in good health.

You have a HUGE load on your battery somewhere.

ZV

Checked that last night, with a fully charged battery, (I think), 12.65v reading. With negative cable disconnected I did a parasitic draw test, only 13.6 ma. So that ain't it. Charger indicated an open cell, *OR* a sulfated condition. The latter would not have been spotted by either of the 2 shops that tested it. Left the cable off overnight, and tested this morning at 12.39, Hmmmmmm
Battery may have sustained some damage when the alternator was acting up. Will try the desulfating, pulse mode on my battery charger tonight.
Fingers crossed.
http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq16.htm

 

[tortillasoup]

Checked that last night, with a fully charged battery, (I think), 12.65v reading. With negative cable disconnected I did a parasitic draw test, only 13.6 ma. So that ain't it. Charger indicated an open cell, *OR* a sulfated condition. The latter would not have been spotted by either of the 2 shops that tested it. Left the cable off overnight, and tested this morning at 12.39, Hmmmmmm
Battery may have sustained some damage when the alternator was acting up. Will try the desulfating, pulse mode on my battery charger tonight.
Fingers crossed.
http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq16.htm

Yup, alternator definitely could have damaged the battery. As for the desulfate function on the charger, typically that works over a long period of time. So if you hooked it up to the charger every day for like 6 months, it can work or if you could take the battery out and leave the desulfator on it for an extended period of time that'd be ideal. However, most people typically don't have spare 12V batteries nor the patience to do this so most end up tossing the battery.

 

[LTC8K6]

Checked that last night, with a fully charged battery, (I think), 12.65v reading. With negative cable disconnected I did a parasitic draw test, only 13.6 ma. So that ain't it. Charger indicated an open cell, *OR* a sulfated condition. The latter would not have been spotted by either of the 2 shops that tested it. Left the cable off overnight, and tested this morning at 12.39, Hmmmmmm
Battery may have sustained some damage when the alternator was acting up. Will try the desulfating, pulse mode on my battery charger tonight.
Fingers crossed.
http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq16.htm

You said you just got a new battery and a new alternator a couple days ago...

The battery could be defective, but sulfated already?

It's actually pretty easy to spot a bad cell in a battery. When you put a load on it, like turning the lights on, it will drop right down to the 10V range or less.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Yup, alternator definitely could have damaged the battery. As for the desulfate function on the charger, typically that works over a long period of time. So if you hooked it up to the charger every day for like 6 months, it can work or if you could take the battery out and leave the desulfator on it for an extended period of time that'd be ideal. However, most people typically don't have spare 12V batteries nor the patience to do this so most end up tossing the battery.

Chargers manual says 24 hours, but that might only be for a *light
sulfation*, Wife is a retired school teacher, but is on call to sub. For some odd reason, she still just loves to teach your little monsters. With 30 years of experience, a masters, and a BA, the great state of Virginia is all too willing to allow her to do so at ten dollars an hour, and it turns out she is scheduled for the rest of the week. Usually, when I have to jump her car in the morning, she is good to go for the rest of the day. However, yesterday she had to get a jump at school to get home. Could I trickle charge, or jump her car till this weekend? sure, but frankly, I think she is so fed-up with this, that we will just go buy a new battery. Walmart has already exchanged this battery once, don't think they'll do it again. If I can salvage this one I can use it in the field to power my 12volt DC Lipo charger for my R/C toys. It's a win, win :ninja: :whiste: :biggrin:

 

[tortillasoup]

Chargers manual says 24 hours, but that might only be for a *light
sulfation*, Wife is a retired school teacher, but is on call to sub. For some odd reason, she still just loves to teach your little monsters. With 30 years of experience, a masters, and a BA, the great state of Virginia is all too willing to allow her to do so at ten dollars an hour, and it turns out she is scheduled for the rest of the week. Usually, when I have to jump her car in the morning, she is good to go for the rest of the day. However, yesterday she had to get a jump at school to get home. Could I trickle charge, or jump her car till this weekend? sure, but frankly, I think she is so fed-up with this, that we will just go buy a new battery. Walmart has already exchanged this battery once, don't think they'll do it again. If I can salvage this one I can use it in the field to power my 12volt DC Lipo charger for my R/C toys. It's a win, win :ninja: :whiste: :biggrin:

If the battery is new, it should be under warranty so walmart should give you a replacement one so you can't stop thinking about this (hopefully). Once you've replaced the battery, be sure to while the engine is idling, check the idling voltage, then turn on all the accessories and check the idling voltage again. If it drops down significantly like to battery voltage of 12v, you still have a serious electrical ground issue as that means the alternator cannot keep up with the amperage draw. (Amps go up when you have corroded electrical circuits due to increase in resistance)

 

[bruceb]

The OP has never said if he changed out the battery cables as was suggested before. They are only about $15 each at most auto parts stores. Also he is using a battery from Walmart and if I recall his initial post, it is a relatively low end battery. You get what you pay for. I suggest either a AC Delco or an Optima battery. They are much better quality than Walmart units. Also when you buy a battery look up the specs for your car as to NO LOAD AMPS and also COLD CRANKING AMPS as well as RESERVE CAPACITY ... in all cases higher is better, provided it can fit

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, he posted that the cables were changed in post #20.

Wal-mart batteries are made by one of the 3 companies that make almost all of the car battery brands, so they are just as good as any "brand" you care to name.

Heck, there's a pretty good chance that any car battery you buy in the US was made by Johnson Controls.

Then you have Exide, and East Penn/Deka.

It's difficult to find a car battery in the US that was not made by one of those three companies.

 

[bruceb]

OK, did not see that the cables were replaced. As to the battery all being made by one of three companies, while that may be true, it does not mean the quality going into a Walmart battery is the same as for say AC Delco. Depending on how the car is wired, the Battery Negative cable usually goes direct to the engine block. A Ground Strap also goes from the Engine block to the Metal Car Chassis.. both of these need to be very clean and tight. At this point, I suspect it is the Ignition Switch or maybe an issue with the Fuse Block (I would change the Fuses that control the starter solenoid) I have seen intermittent connections internally in a fuse.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

This thread was started in late March. The battery is now 10 months old, and was a free warranty exchange 4 months before that time, as was the alternator 4/1/15. It is Walmarts top of the line battery, with specs way more than is required. It's 3 years free replacement, and 2 years pro-rate.
The wife is now driving around with my trucks battery, while I *try* to recondition hers. I have a feeling Walmart is not gonna allow me to exchange a battery twice. Trust me, it wasn't easy the first time. They told me that the battery I bought was no longer sold by them, and therefore I was out of luck. Also if the battery you bought sold for $90, and now sells for $110, you will have to cover the $20 difference. They charge the battery, test voltage, and load, and tell you to pound sand. I *could* ask for a hydrometer test

 

[ISAslot]

My 87 Tercel has a similar issue.
When starting sometimes it will just click and the clock on the radio dims. If i keep trying it will eventually start. It doesn't seem to be as bad if the battery is freshly charged. I'm about to purchase a new ignition switch to see if that solves it.

Wasn't the switch. For some reason I've always had a psychological block to grounding issues. I think because I subconsciously assume it would be hard to fine the grounds that my mind tries to fine anything else it could be. After forcing myself to consider it and actually hunting them out, it really wasn't bad at all.

I cleaned the connection where the neg. battery cable attaches to the fender (not too corroded). Then I removed the cable that connected the transmission bolt to the frame (near the battery). This one was corroded bad. The trans bolt was actually a bit loose too. Cleaned it off and reconnected, and no issue now.

 

[bradly1101]

And if you remove the starter to bench test it may "pass"...and then you'll be scratching your head when it doesn't work in the car. This happened to me before. New starter = problem solved.

+100 This happened on my '92 Previa. The rotor and magnets in the starter need to be replaced, so best to get a new starter.

 

[bradly1101]

Wasn't the switch. For some reason I've always had a psychological block to grounding issues. I think because I subconsciously assume it would be hard to fine the grounds that my mind tries to fine anything else it could be. After forcing myself to consider it and actually hunting them out, it really wasn't bad at all.

I cleaned the connection where the neg. battery cable attaches to the fender (not too corroded). Then I removed the cable that connected the transmission bolt to the frame (near the battery). This one was corroded bad. The trans bolt was actually a bit loose too. Cleaned it off and reconnected, and no issue now.

Congrats. that it wasn't the starter. I had the same symptoms which is why I thought it was. It was so intermittent I had to explain to the mechanic that I just wanted it replaced (it's in a weird spot that I couldn't access with my tools).

 

[ISAslot]

Congrats. that it wasn't the starter. I had the same symptoms which is why I thought it was. It was so intermittent I had to explain to the mechanic that I just wanted it replaced (it's in a weird spot that I couldn't access with my tools).

Well you may be right yet. It was working fine until came home from the store today. Took my driveway at an angle and stalled it trying to overcome the curb (manual). When I went to restart, guess what symptom was back!

I've ordered a Bosch reman on clearance price from rockauto $52 shipped.

 

[RLGL]

Well you may be right yet. It was working fine until came home from the store today. Took my driveway at an angle and stalled it trying to overcome the curb (manual). When I went to restart, guess what symptom was back!

I've ordered a Bosch reman on clearance price from rockauto $52 shipped.

never buy reman starters , buy OEM new. Reman always bites back

 

[ISAslot]

never buy reman starters , buy OEM new. Reman always bites back

OEM new!? I think that's more than car's worth

I haven't gotten the starter yet... but there's a new strange and tantalizing symptom. Started it up yesterday and it did the 'try many times' before cranking. But once the car was started, anytime I pushed in the clutch all the way, the starter relay would click, lights would dim and a bizarre cacophony of grinding noises would sound. I just drove to my destination without pressing the clutch as far to get around it.

Once I was ready to leave checked to see if there were any wires near the clutch components in the engine compartment. Everything looked good. When I tried to replicate, it wouldn't do it anymore and had an uneventful drive home. I'm going to check the pedal area under the dash when I get home though. Something ain't right at all.

 

[tortillasoup]

OEM new!? I think that's more than car's worth

I haven't gotten the starter yet... but there's a new strange and tantalizing symptom. Started it up yesterday and it did the 'try many times' before cranking. But once the car was started, anytime I pushed in the clutch all the way, the starter relay would click, lights would dim and a bizarre cacophony of grinding noises would sound. I just drove to my destination without pressing the clutch as far to get around it.

Once I was ready to leave checked to see if there were any wires near the clutch components in the engine compartment. Everything looked good. When I tried to replicate, it wouldn't do it anymore and had an uneventful drive home. I'm going to check the pedal area under the dash when I get home though. Something ain't right at all.

You have a potential grounding issue... could be a broken wire or two. There is typically a clutch switch you're pressing when you push the clutch in all the way that lets you crank the engine (it's to prevent you cranking w/o pressing the clutch in).