Please explain ISDN to me

[titanmiller]

I hardly live in "the boonies" but I am still unable to get anysort of broadband. I have know about ISDN for along time but have never taken the time to research it. Well I did research it today and I am excited that I may have BROADERband intenet but first I must clarify some things about it.

If I get voice (phone) and data over the same line and somebody calls, it automaticaly halves the data bandwidth and the phone becomes active, then once the phone call is over the full 128kbps is returned to the data...correct? Also If I hook the ISDN up to a computer via USB I could eaily share it between my other computers simply by enabling Internet connection sharing in windows...correct??

Basicaly I want to know if I can have voice and data at the same time
Also what is the average price (USD)?

Anything you think I should know.

 

[titanmiller]

I did some searching and discovered users saying that with an internal ISDN card pings exceede 300ms but with a ISDN router pings are as low as 30ms, one reason I want this is to be able to game better, can anybody suggest a ISDN router?

Also any personal experences?

 

[Fuzznuts]

Originally posted by: titanmiller
I did some searching and discovered users saying that with an internal ISDN card pings exceede 300ms but with a ISDN router pings are as low as 30ms, one reason I want this is to be able to game better, can anybody suggest a ISDN router?

Also any personal experences?

I had isdn before cable and that internal card stuff is nonsense the best pings i ever got was with and interal Asuscom ISDN adapter. reckoned to be one of the best around for gaming. Also youll never see pings in the 30's. 50 - 60 is a better figure. Mine used to be 50 to my local servers.

 

[Jeff7]

And keep on your phone/cable companies - let them know that you would be VERY interested in some broadband service, provided of course that they don't decide to rip you off with rates like $60+ a month for 500kbps.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: titanmiller
I hardly live in "the boonies" but I am still unable to get anysort of broadband. I have know about ISDN for along time but have never taken the time to research it. Well I did research it today and I am excited that I may have BROADERband intenet but first I must clarify some things about it.

If I get voice (phone) and data over the same line and somebody calls, it automaticaly halves the data bandwidth and the phone becomes active, then once the phone call is over the full 128kbps is returned to the data...correct? Also If I hook the ISDN up to a computer via USB I could eaily share it between my other computers simply by enabling Internet connection sharing in windows...correct??

Basicaly I want to know if I can have voice and data at the same time
Also what is the average price (USD)?

Anything you think I should know.

I worked at Hayes Modems that perfected ISDN. You're on the right track. ISDN splits the analog line into 2 64K capable channels using an older Protocol developed by AT&T. There is a couple of other methods as well, you're Provider will tell you which one their equipment uses. Voice only takes 20K so you do lose a chunk of the Primary 64K channel when you are on a voice call.

If you have about Ten people or more around you that would like Broadband maybe you could look into firing up a T1 line instead of ISDN. Then you could setup a Wireless Network where your subscribers would contribute to the cost of the T1.

 

[titanmiller]

Thanks for the replys, I'll be back to ask more specific questions if I decide to go on with ISDN.


On Topic (kinda): If I do get an internal ISDN card and use internet connection sharing wihtin windows I can still use my 4 port wireless router to act as my WAP and switch, pretty sure I can.

 

[JackMDS]

Once you are out of the computer in Ethernet form you can use Ethernet hardware.

You can use a Wireless Router as an Access point provided you connect the input to a regular port and leave the WAN port open. (ICS might give you hard time).

The following may describe the general idea.

Link to: Using a Wireless Cable/DSL Router as a Switch with an Access Point

 

[bgroff]

I worked at Hayes Modems that perfected ISDN. You're on the right track. ISDN splits the analog line into 2 64K capable channels using an older Protocol developed by AT&T. There is a couple of other methods as well, you're Provider will tell you which one their equipment uses. Voice only takes 20K so you do lose a chunk of the Primary 64K channel when you are on a voice call.

If you have about Ten people or more around you that would like Broadband maybe you could look into firing up a T1 line instead of ISDN. Then you could setup a Wireless Network where your subscribers would contribute to the cost of the T1.

I'm guessing you didn't actually work with the ISDN equipment then...

ISDN IS a digital line (not an analog line), with 2 Bearer channels and 1 signalling channel (2B+D). Each bearer is 64Kbps (PCM voice or data, depending on how the line is provisioned) and the signal is 16Kbps (hence 144Kbps ISDL). The voice will use an entire B channel, so you will use an entire channel for voice calls...

ISDN is an okay option for remote access, but pricey. Its major advantages over analog dialup are lower latency (you're not going through a DAC and ADC) and FAST connect times (easily less than 5 seconds to bring up the connection).

 

[bgroff]

Originally posted by: titanmiller
Thanks for the replys, I'll be back to ask more specific questions if I decide to go on with ISDN.


On Topic (kinda): If I do get an internal ISDN card and use internet connection sharing wihtin windows I can still use my 4 port wireless router to act as my WAP and switch, pretty sure I can.

BTW, you can pick up a Cisco 804 on ebay for what looks to be under $100. This is an excellent ISDN router because it is able to do NAT/PAT, has 2 voice ports to connect an analog phone to, has an integrated 4 port hub and runs Cisco's IOS software.

 

[cmetz]

titanmiller, check EBay and go get an Ascend (now Lucent) Pipeline 75. There are plenty of other ISDN router/voice devices out there, but Ascend really owned the ISDN space and was just the best ISDN equipment to get - certainly the most interoperable. Their IP functionality (e.g., PAT) is okay but not great. Used off EBay, they should be quite cheap these days. (which reminds me: I need to sell off my old one!)

Assuming your CPE has voice support, is reasonably smart, ditto of your ISP, and you have a U interface, you basically plug the outside line into your CPE as well as your internal phone wiring (up to two POTS lines), and also an Ethernet connection for data. If so configured, you can make it so that it will normally use 128kb/s for data, but will drop one or both of the 64kb/s channels to be used as analog calls if you either pick up a phone on one of those POTS lines or receive a call to those lines. There's also a not well supported thing called (I think) AODI, which let you use the 16k/s ISDN control connection to carry very low rate data and keep the 64k/s main channels off (the idea here is you always have some data connectivity, and you can connect the main channels when needed).

ISDN 64k/s B channels make PPP/ML-PPP connections pretty quickly - say a second or so. It's pretty decent to turn up or down the data rate on the fly and trade with voice. I'd suggest that you try to stick with one real voice line and leave the other unused (you often will get two phone numbers, one for each channel, just ignore the second). That way you're going between 64k/s and 128k/s data as needed, but never all the way down to nothing.

Watch out for per-minute telco charges on ISDN. Ask specifically whether voice AND data are both flat rate. I had ISDN from an ILEC (Sprint Centel) who was smart enough to only offer flat-rate local calling for both ISDN voice and data, correctly understanding that the accounting and billing to meter it per minute would be less profitable than just making it flat rate. Now I live in Verizon former Bell Atlantic territory, where ISDN deployment was strangled by high per-minute tarrifs AND grossly incompetent billing. Everybody I knew who had ISDN in BA territory ended up with serious billing errors on a routine basis leading to huge fights - costing BA way more in man-time than the metering could possibly have brought in as revenue.

If you have specific ISDN technical questions, please feel free to ask - I lived with it for a couple of years.

 

[titanmiller]

Originally posted by: cmetz
titanmiller, check EBay and go get an Ascend (now Lucent) Pipeline 75. There are plenty of other ISDN router/voice devices out there, but Ascend really owned the ISDN space and was just the best ISDN equipment to get - certainly the most interoperable. Their IP functionality (e.g., PAT) is okay but not great. Used off EBay, they should be quite cheap these days. (which reminds me: I need to sell off my old one!)

Assuming your CPE has voice support, is reasonably smart, ditto of your ISP, and you have a U interface, you basically plug the outside line into your CPE as well as your internal phone wiring (up to two POTS lines), and also an Ethernet connection for data. If so configured, you can make it so that it will normally use 128kb/s for data, but will drop one or both of the 64kb/s channels to be used as analog calls if you either pick up a phone on one of those POTS lines or receive a call to those lines. There's also a not well supported thing called (I think) AODI, which let you use the 16k/s ISDN control connection to carry very low rate data and keep the 64k/s main channels off (the idea here is you always have some data connectivity, and you can connect the main channels when needed).

ISDN 64k/s B channels make PPP/ML-PPP connections pretty quickly - say a second or so. It's pretty decent to turn up or down the data rate on the fly and trade with voice. I'd suggest that you try to stick with one real voice line and leave the other unused (you often will get two phone numbers, one for each channel, just ignore the second). That way you're going between 64k/s and 128k/s data as needed, but never all the way down to nothing.

Watch out for per-minute telco charges on ISDN. Ask specifically whether voice AND data are both flat rate. I had ISDN from an ILEC (Sprint Centel) who was smart enough to only offer flat-rate local calling for both ISDN voice and data, correctly understanding that the accounting and billing to meter it per minute would be less profitable than just making it flat rate. Now I live in Verizon former Bell Atlantic territory, where ISDN deployment was strangled by high per-minute tarrifs AND grossly incompetent billing. Everybody I knew who had ISDN in BA territory ended up with serious billing errors on a routine basis leading to huge fights - costing BA way more in man-time than the metering could possibly have brought in as revenue.

If you have specific ISDN technical questions, please feel free to ask - I lived with it for a couple of years.

Thanks for the great reply, can you confirm that this router provides low pings.

Picture to how I understand this will work
Can anybody please comment on this picture and tell me whats wrong and whats correct.

BTW, I will be getting Qwest ISDN and they will act as my ISP (unless you have a reason for them not to be), any comments on Qwest.

 

[titanmiller]

^^^^^^^^

 

[cmetz]

titanmiller, I don't have quantitative numbers to give you, but I was happy with its latency.

The diagram you drew is fine.

 

[titanmiller]

Originally posted by: cmetz
titanmiller, I don't have quantitative numbers to give you, but I was happy with its latency.

The diagram you drew is fine.

I play alot of Americas Army, and am getting about as proficent as possible with ~300ms pings. It sure would be nice to be one of those low pingers, with luck I can be. But knowing my luck even ISDN wont be available to me.

 

[titanmiller]

Ok, I called Qwest and they said it is 75$/month for the line but want $21/month to be my ISP. With dial-up you need a ISP with a local number so you dont get long distance charges, how does ISND work, do I need a local ISP too or what?
Also are there any services that list ISDN ISPs by area code?
I hope the $75 includes phone otherwise I think I'm out of luck.

 

[bgroff]

Originally posted by: titanmiller
Ok, I called Qwest and they said it is 75$/month for the line but want $21/month to be my ISP. With dial-up you need a ISP with a local number so you dont get long distance charges, how does ISND work, do I need a local ISP too or what?
Also are there any services that list ISDN ISPs by area code?
I hope the $75 includes phone otherwise I think I'm out of luck.

The $75 is the line charges... You should be able to run voice and data over that. If they are only charging you $21 for being the ISP, smile. That's a much better deal than it used to be. Is that for both 2B (128K) or just 1B (64K)? You'll still need to get the router, which will let you connect an analog phone.