Please disprove this for me (science/electricity related.)

[notfred]

I have a card here from a game called Mind Trap that poses this problem:

Shady was his invention to a 'Birds Unlimited' convention. He explained that he developed a special insulation for high powered electrical lines. The insulation is guaranteed to save thousands of birds who unwittingly land on the lines and are electrocuted each year. Shady claimed that with all the birds saved,the annual summer mosquito problem would practically disappear. As Shady was appealing for donations, Captain Frank, an avid bird lover, stood up and told Shady to peddle his line elsewhere. What was wrong with Shady's claim?

It then proceeds to produce this pile of crap as an answer:

High powered electrical lines have such a strong magnetic field that is virtually impossible for birds to land on them. The magnetic field will actually repel the birds.

I want to be able to provide concrete evidence that this answer is plain wrong. The simple fact that birds aren't magnetic doesn't seem to be enough.

 

[sillymofo]

Take camera, go outside, wait for birds to land on powerlines, take pictures, print out.... whaaala... Proof.

EDIT: Unless it's Big Bertha, which can keep one foot on each line.

 

[Anubis]

the birds arnt grounded - they dont get zapped

 

[MikeMike]

i dont know the magnetic properties of a bird.

and they are talking about the 10K volt high tension lines i believe.

MIKE

 

[vi edit]

Ummm...maybe if they have about 10,000% of the USDA of their iron intake a day.

 

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by: Anubis
the birds arnt grounded - they dont get zapped

yes that is correct.

 

[SplinterDB]

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: Anubis
the birds arnt grounded - they dont get zapped

yes that is correct.

Agreed but to slow

 

[Shivatron]

Originally posted by: Anubis
the birds arnt grounded - they dont get zapped

This is, of course, the simplest (and thus via Occam's Razor, the correct ) answer. As for magnetic fields, I have no idea.

 

[warcrow]

Thye must be talking about the very HIGH powered lines (10K volts), b/c I see it almost everyday.


BTW, where is Doom 3?

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Atticu5

Originally posted by: Anubis
the birds arnt grounded - they dont get zapped

This is, of course, the simplest (and thus via Occam's Razor, the correct ) answer. As for magnetic fields, I have no idea.

neither do I and im a physics major, ive never heard it explained that the mag field repells them, but im sure it could

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: notfred
I have a card here from a game called Mind Trap that poses this problem:

Shady was his invention to a 'Birds Unlimited' convention. He explained that he developed a special insulation for high powered electrical lines. The insulation is guaranteed to save thousands of birds who unwittingly land on the lines and are electrocuted each year. Shady claimed that with all the birds saved,the annual summer mosquito problem would practically disappear. As Shady was appealing for donations, Captain Frank, an avid bird lover, stood up and told Shady to peddle his line elsewhere. What was wrong with Shady's claim?

It then proceeds to produce this pile of crap as an answer:

High powered electrical lines have such a strong magnetic field that is virtually impossible for birds to land on them. The magnetic field will actually repel the birds.

I want to be able to provide concrete evidence that this answer is plain wrong. The simple fact that birds aren't magnetic doesn't seem to be enough.

a birds sense of direction is governed by magnetic fields. As an electric current flows throw a wire a magentic field is generated (vice versa is also true in case you are wondering).

Imagine a powerline in your head , now take your right hand and stick your thumb out in the way the current is travvelling and curl your fingers into a fist, the way your fingers are moving is the way the magentic field will be generated. Since a powerline has a lot of current going through it it will really fvck with a birds balance, but i believe you are getting confused with a bird sitting on a telephone wire vs a power line. A telephone line wont have nearly as much current flowing through it.

-Ameesh

 

[jyates]

In order to get zapped the birds would have to be touching 2 wires at the same time.
Just touching 1 wire when you aren't grounded isn't going to do anything.

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: jyates
In order to get zapped the birds would have to be touching 2 wires at the same time.
Just touching 1 wire when you aren't grounded isn't going to do anything.

that's not too uncommon, particularly for large birds.

 

[ApacheXMD]

and the wires are insulated already..

-patchy

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: notfred
I have a card here from a game called Mind Trap that poses this problem:

Shady was his invention to a 'Birds Unlimited' convention. He explained that he developed a special insulation for high powered electrical lines. The insulation is guaranteed to save thousands of birds who unwittingly land on the lines and are electrocuted each year. Shady claimed that with all the birds saved,the annual summer mosquito problem would practically disappear. As Shady was appealing for donations, Captain Frank, an avid bird lover, stood up and told Shady to peddle his line elsewhere. What was wrong with Shady's claim?

It then proceeds to produce this pile of crap as an answer:

High powered electrical lines have such a strong magnetic field that is virtually impossible for birds to land on them. The magnetic field will actually repel the birds.

I want to be able to provide concrete evidence that this answer is plain wrong. The simple fact that birds aren't magnetic doesn't seem to be enough.

a birds sense of direction is governed by magnetic fields. As an electric current flows throw a wire a magentic field is generated (vice versa is also true in case you are wondering).

Imagine a powerline in your head , now take your right hand and stick your thumb out in the way the current is travvelling and curl your fingers into a fist, the way your fingers are moving is the way the magentic field will be generated. Since a powerline has a lot of current going through it it will really fvck with a birds balance, but i believe you are getting confused with a bird sitting on a telephone wire vs a power line. A telephone line wont have nearly as much current flowing through it.

-Ameesh

yep, right hand rule for magnetic fields.

that would really fvck with a bird wouldnt it, i dont recall seeing any birds on high tension lines, hmm, ill have to look.

MIKE

 

[beer]

Most materials on the earth have the same relative permeabaility of magnetic fields. That is, carbon, hydrogen, water, plastics, wood, etc, all allow magnetic fields to pass through with the same attenuation as that of a perfect vacuum, or air. The exceptions, of course, are the ferromagnetics, of which Iron is the only common one. Most materials have different relative permittieties of electric fields. Carbon, plastics, etc, insulate electric fields extremely well but do nothing to stop magnetic fields.

I suppose this would work if you had a layer of high electrical permitivity, a layer of high magnetic permeability, and then another layer of high electrical permitivity. That way you could attenuate both signals relatively fast. It'd be heavy though!

 

[Ymmy]

Originally posted by: SplinterDB

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: Anubis
the birds arnt grounded - they dont get zapped

yes that is correct.

Agreed but to slow

Correct

 

[Eli]

I have never heard that one.

But now that I think about it, I have never seen a bird near a high tension line.

They carry several orders of magnitude more energy than the ones on the poles in your neighborhood.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: beer
Most materials on the earth have the same relative permeabaility of magnetic fields. That is, carbon, hydrogen, water, plastics, wood, etc, all allow magnetic fields to pass through with the same attenuation as that of a perfect vacuum, or air. The exceptions, of course, are the ferromagnetics, of which Iron is the only common one. Most materials have different relative permittieties of electric fields. Carbon, plastics, etc, insulate electric fields extremely well but do nothing to stop magnetic fields.

I suppose this would work if you had a layer of high electrical permitivity, a layer of high magnetic permeability, and then another layer of high electrical permitivity. That way you could attenuate both signals relatively fast. It'd be heavy though!

There's a difference between diamagnetism and paramagnetism.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: beer
Most materials on the earth have the same relative permeabaility of magnetic fields. That is, carbon, hydrogen, water, plastics, wood, etc, all allow magnetic fields to pass through with the same attenuation as that of a perfect vacuum, or air. The exceptions, of course, are the ferromagnetics, of which Iron is the only common one. Most materials have different relative permittieties of electric fields. Carbon, plastics, etc, insulate electric fields extremely well but do nothing to stop magnetic fields.

I suppose this would work if you had a layer of high electrical permitivity, a layer of high magnetic permeability, and then another layer of high electrical permitivity. That way you could attenuate both signals relatively fast. It'd be heavy though!

There's a difference between diamagnetism and paramagnetism.

Eh, -isms of e/m aren't my thing, I made a C in the class. But the priniciple still stands I think even if I used the wrong word, there aren't many high perm materials out ther.

 

[Atomicus]

On normal powerlines, the birds can land on the wire, but don't actually touch. Why? Because they do generate a repulsive force, however, it is only enough to repel the bird's feet a small distance from the wire, this the feet can grasp this "invisible" wire which is repelling. You should see this pretty common in your own yard where there are power lines. Trust me, I'm an environmental engineer and I've read about it.

As for high powered electrical lines, the game's solution is correct. If you've payed attention in your college physics class, magnetic flux goes through most objects, including insulation since its not a transfer of electrons but an invisible force. Just like how even extreme levels of voltage can penetrate insulation, so can a magnetic field actually repel.

I own a copy of Mind Trap and I've never seen an answer wrong before.

 

[Atomicus]

The insulation is a fraud because the birds can't even go near the lines.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Atomicus
On normal powerlines, the birds can land on the wire, but don't actually touch. Why? Because they do generate a repulsive force, however, it is only enough to repel the bird's feet a small distance from the wire, this the feet can grasp this "invisible" wire which is repelling. You should see this pretty common in your own yard where there are power lines. Trust me, I'm an environmental engineer and I've read about it.

If that were the case, wouldn't the repulsion make the wire "slippery", so that birds couldn't keep their balance?

I dunno...I don't buy it. Few things are repelled by magnetism, and those things that are usually are repelled by such a small amount we don't even notice.

Hey, if I'm wrong though feel free to let me know. Always willing to learn something new.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Ymmy

Originally posted by: SplinterDB

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: Anubis
the birds arnt grounded - they dont get zapped

yes that is correct.

Agreed but to slow

Correct

I saw something on the history channel about the guys who work on high tension power lines... apparantly they can mess you up pretty badly even if you're not grounded, and even if you don't touch them.

 

[Atomicus]

Like I said, look at the birds on regular power lines that runs with your telephone lines etc. The grip wouldn't be slippery because the shape of the claw doesn't allow for slippage. A semi-circular arc clamping on a repulsive force shaped like a rod will not allow for slippage (omg.. i wish i could draw a FBD)

The proof is there, when its morning, go outside and look at the birds. They can grasp the wires; you cannot.