Please check my hardware choices for a low end server

[jameslwhitfield]

Since you folks seem to be in the know, I have a quick question.

We are setting up a small server for only 10 folks and it will mainly be a database server and file server using sql server 2000 and sbs 2003.

This is what I have proposed to purchase

Tyan Tiger K8W or the MSI equivalent (possibly will choose Tyan Thunder K8W)
Dual Opteron 242
4Gb Ram (4 x 1GB ECC, Registered Ram - probably PQI - best deal I have found is the PQI sticks at Newegg)
2 Raptor 74gb Hard drives using Raid 1
Server Case from Newegg with 6 fan cooling unit
I would use the onboard Raid Controller (2 channel)

If I am an idiot please let me know. I am pricing this at $2k and would need to stay in this range if not a little below.

Thanks

 

[biostud]

seems fine

 

[ribbon13]

Deja vu?

Care to list all the components with links to the etailer where all that can be had for that price point?

Tyan Thunder K8WE is more scalable. The price difference should be less than $50
http://8anet.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2417&step=4
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-151-120&depa=0

As for the ram, for a real server I would never stray from Corsair. But that choice is yours.

For future-resistance, it would be wiser to go with something that can be upgraded later, instead of having to start from scratch again because you chose EOL components, even if that means 1 opteron and 2gb to start with.

 

[jameslwhitfield]

THat is a good point. I was looking at it that a dual processor system should be powerful enough to be effective for at least three years. However, if that is not the case let me know!!

Prices

Monarch
2 Opterons 242 $462 (231 each)
Tyan Thunder K8W $429

ZipZoomFly
2 Raptor 74gb $332.50 (166.50 each)
Asus v9400 Agp card $33.99

Newegg
4 PQI Power Sereis 1GB ECC DDR PC3200 $746 (186.49 x 4)
Aspire Silver Turbo Case w/ 420w ps $100 incl Shipping (ATX case) (holds 12"x13" mobo)

Total $2100
Total $1960 if downgrade to Tiger K8W

 

[jameslwhitfield]

Plus DVD Burner for lowest price (wherever I find a cheap one - BestBuy, etc.)

 

[ribbon13]

With that setup it would be foolish not to go with the K8WE instead, the price difference is damn near neglible...

However... those boards (K8W/K8WE) Require a SSI/ETX 3.51 24+6+8 PSU. Like this diagram courtesy of PCP&C. That Aspire idea is bad bad bad.
You would be better off with a single 244, and getting a decent case/psu with the difference. It is only for 10 users. Given what your upgrading from, it should be a warm welcome regardless.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I went with the MSI MASTER2-FAR for $214 shipped from zzf as it allows mild overclocking, is standard ATX, allows standard PSUs, and I don't need PCI-X or PCIe for now, but did want AGP. I coupled it with 2x242 from Monarch for $203 each since the MSI includes both coolers and I run them@1.725ghz. You may or may not need the independent memory addressing+NUMA the more expensive Tyan offers, but in many of the benchies I've seen the shared architecture of the low-end boards doesn't effect performance much. Obviously there are some areas where it does so you might want to do a search and see if any are done with the software you plan to use and if they need it or not.

 

[piasabird]

This motherboard can use 8 sticks of ram so why not try 8 X ECC 512? Which way is cheaper? I would have thought the only advantage to using a motherboard with 8 Memory slots would be to use all 8 to save money on RAM. That should cut the RAM price to under $1,000.00. How much was the PQI? You could easily spend $5.000.00 on a server.

My thinking on this is the Database and the application server should be 2 separate servers. Maybe three if you have one Databse, one SQL, and one Aplication server. The database server must be fast, but the others dont have to be as fast.

You also have to price in the cost of the network support the number of user licenses and a good tape backup system or some server space to backup the database. You have to have a database license and maybe an SQL license also unless the database has a native SQL with it.

There is a concept of separating the application level from the database level that I think is important. It is worth considering. Have you thought of implementing a worst case scenario for equipment failure? If the primary server fails what will you do? I would at least have insurance covering the server/s and maybe have a good PC to back up the DB and the applications on as an emergency backup.

 

[jameslwhitfield]

The MSI board comes with coolers? I did not see that in the description but that would be great! Do you know if I bout PC3200 ddr ram if it would work with the board since the dual opterons would not allow the board to run the ram at 400mhz?

Do I need to buy PC2700 instead?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

The Master2-FAR is fine with DDR400 reg. ecc as long as the Opterons you get support it. I have matching same week CGs and they definitely support it. I don't think you would get older ones ordering months after I did. huge thread on the MSI everything you could want to know about it, issues, which bios does what, alternative CPU coolers you can use*AMD coolers will not work*. MSI went with Xeon 603 coolers, weird huh? this one fits the 2nd CPU socket next to the AGP slot

newegg shows all the goodies the board comes with

BTW, the coolers are loud as hell on full so use smartfan to quite them. The 2nd one is whimpy sized to ensure a bulky vid card can fit so I suggest the 1 I linked to replace it, and maybe adpter and bigger fan too. You can water cool too if that is your thing.

 

[jameslwhitfield]

Main operation of the server is sql server 2000 data processing. All apps use Sql Server for the most part by stored procedures, vb.net apps or through linked tables in access database.

Some storage of files would occur on the server and at times these files would be accessed by local users.

We also run our web server on the server (although the web site is not hit often). All online data also is retrieved from sql server using stored procedures and asp.net

THE PQI sticks are $186/each

Most apps would run on users local machines and pull information through calls to SQL Server.

Thanks

James

 

[jameslwhitfield]

Forgot to mention the funny part of all this.

We currently use a Dimension 2300 p4 2.4ghz piece of crap from Dell ($349 probably)
784mb Kingston ram

Any upgrade will be an imporvement!!

 

[ribbon13]

I would take the Tyan over the MSI because of reliability. And the Tyan will have great support for Italy cores, the MSI may not.

3 servers would mean 3 licenses... ouch.

 

[ribbon13]

Case $123
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?s...55094&Type=PE&Category=Comp&dcaid=1688

PSU $100
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-103-478&depa=0

MB - $480
http://8anet.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2417&lastcatid=5&step=4

Memory $171 x4
http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant...=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=140899

HDDs - $179 x2
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101222

CPU - $235
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80302-R

$1980

Most scalable to your needs.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Here is a MSI vs Tyan with traditional desktop benchies and you can see for this stuff the shared mem doesn't hurt much link Opteron is excellent in MySQL but I don't know how big an impact indy mem addressing+NUMA would have on performance with it so hunt for benchies. As far as reliability, my system is on 24/7 with 2 instances of BOINC SETI and anything else I do from shooters to vid editing and encoding, DVDShrink, some file serving, ect. and it is a rock so far with 2gb reg ecc in dual channel even overclocked. The Tyan is definitely a superior board with AMD chipset and more features, it is all a matter fo wether you want/will want/need them or not.

 

[ribbon13]

Seems like you have a nice rig dapunisher, but I wouldn't suggest he overclock a business server. heh Oh, and props, your the first to actually have a intelligent debate with me without flames on this forum.

Also I'm suggest the K8WE (S2895) which has AMD+nVidia, two PCIe16x slots, and two PCI-X bussses. It's superior to the K8W, and is not much different in price.

Mucho thanks for the link. Great stuff
"Update : We've just been informed that using Pentium 4 coolers, such as the ones included on the MSI K8T Master2-FAR motherboard, voids the warranty on AMD Opteron retail CPU's. Keep in mind, this is only on retail packaged CPU's, OEM CPU's determine warranty breaks in different ways which is up to each OEM distributor. Still, we thought it was interesting and well worth mentioning."
Nice...

 

[DAPUNISHER]

You are definitly showing a great low-end server setup to him ribbon, and it is much more future proof if he needs the PCI-X at any point. I am just throwing out an ubercheap setup because you can buy OEM opterons, regular PSU, and standard ATX desktop case that does pretty well for the overall price to performance it offers. Choices are what it is all about and if they can afford it your's is the better one no doubt. SCSI would be the next step but that ain't cheap either.

 

[ribbon13]

It's a $100 more. Try again. hehehe.

http://8anet.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2416&lastcatid=5&step=4


The really big issue for me would be the OEM 30-90 day warranty vs... 3-5 year?

 

[jameslwhitfield]

I want to thank you both. Choice is obvious on the computer market now, and your advice and discussion helps me find the proper solution for our small company. I seem to learn more from these types of discussions and your personal experiences and then try to make the best choice (if there is one).

Hopefully a few more people will give their thoughts and I will be able to present a fairly complete picture for my two bosses. They will ultimately make the final choice but I believe they will weigh my thoughts heavily when making the final decision.

Until then, my little Dell will keep running the company.

Thanks

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: ribbon13
It's a $100 more. Try again. hehehe.

http://8anet.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2416&lastcatid=5&step=4


The really big issue for me would be the OEM 30-90 day warranty vs... 3-5 year?

Don't forget to add the cost of 2 drives of comparable size, and if he goes with fast 15k that will add a few hundred more on to the tag.

As to the oem warranty, modern AMD cpus and boards eliminate the incidents of thermal related death and I have never seen a CPU that works right out of the gate go bad without being heavily abused or other forms of user error or other non-warrantied circumstances.

 

[ribbon13]

I run a raid 10 with 4 seagate 15k.4's, so I know how much 'ouch' the price can induce. By the time whichever machine they decide reaches it's EOLC, SAS should be out in strength. I would be so happy to have a Seagate 15krpm 16mb SAS drive!

The warranty is something his bosses should consider. I always buy retail chips even if I use an aftermarket cooler, because $20 is worth the extra insurance. Especially in a server/datacenter enviroment where heat can be an issue. I doubt his company would have to worry though, sounds like it will stand alone.

Which seems better for your needs James?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Since it is his ass on the line with the employers, he would be best served to go with the one you suggest or put his neck in the noose and hope the chair he is standing on doesn't break I don't get why you said try again $100 more though since you understand 15k SCSI drives cost more for same storage size It doesn't matter though, it changes nothing and we just post count++ in half this thread anyways

 

[ribbon13]

I was just saying it is only $100 more to get SCSI potential. A full SCSI implementation would add over half the cost the machine is already, and really be overkill. If he did want SCSI he could go with the smallest 15k's (36gb) since his dataload won't come anywhere near that, so the size doesn't matter. Too much cost for the benefit I think. While Raptors are overpriced for desktop users, the certainly should be sufficient for his light-server needs. People derailed his last thread booing raptors :disgust:

 

[crimson117]

Originally posted by: jameslwhitfield
Plus DVD Burner for lowest price (wherever I find a cheap one - BestBuy, etc.)

Best Buy will sell you a cheap-quality dvd burner but it will be Expensive. ($100)

Newegg will sell you a high-quality dvd burner and it will be Inexpensive. ($65)

 

[ribbon13]

Try this specific model to match the EN-8950 case. =D Servers are meant to be black!
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=27-152-035&depa=0