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Platoon defies orders in Iraq

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Deadlined can mean many things, and can be something as simple as a small air leak on a compressor. The commander has at his discretion the option to over ride a deadline by simply doing what they call circle X, exemption of the deadline and authorizing the vehicle for the mission with limitations. In Combat it takes quite a bit to deadline a vehicle from mission capable status.

As for the fuel, we dont even know what type fuel it was... just states fuel from what I have read, and many military vehicles are multi-fuel and can run on some pretty crappy fuels and fuel mixes. Hell you can run a 2 1/2 ton cargo truck on a 50/50 blend of diesel and JP4 jet fuel.... I know Ive had to do it. Most fuel trucks, and the vehicles they are used in have large filtration units as well.

Now if this was aviation fuel, I seriously doubt anyone would have attempted to use it in an aircraft with unacceptable contamination levels, but it may have usefull purpose elsewhere.



 
Originally posted by: Klixxer
Was a good thread until MisterMe needed to flash his e-cock.
And a nice one it is wouldn't you agree? Taking the time to check the facts and forming my own opinion based on the facts, looks like my posts were quite outnumbered...9 to 3 if I still count after an evening's worth of Molson. Considering this, who should be doing the STFUing? Figures. Hey, I was just remaining steadfast in my resolve you know?

So to this you reply...Cmon, I know you want to...just letter rip...You were full of it before so I know you're still full of it...
 
Originally posted by: Klixxer
Originally posted by: MisterMe
Oooo ya, stung me on that one! AOL? No, I've got an OC3 with a server farm right in my living room. Check your sarcasm meter. Conzzider it a lesson learned that I wouldn't be cenzzored trying to get a point acrozz. I'll have to have learned at some point...maybe with 1000+ and 5000+ posts I will have learned from some of the best.

Nope, don't know Moonbeam, just saw a post that was off base with erogneous content...kinda like you guys saw in my reply.

Ambulance chaser? Not really offended by that. If that's a person's line of work then maybe that's a good place to get leads. Do what you have to do I guess. A couple hundred million would make my intestines feel a little better...and help pay the med bills for the next 75 years or so...

Liberal? Well, yes, I guess maybe I am turning liberal after all - Never really officially labeled myself that way but if it makes your types feel better then label away. Maybe I'm just flip flopping away from the fear and lies over the last 4 years...not what I believe in.

You make it out to be such a bad thing. You know, forming my own opinion about what's going on in the world. Just got tired of seeing things with my own eyes and being told something entirely different. Seems to me that the right wingers have more explaining to do than a good ol' boy like me. Maybe you guys can follow suit and start asking some questions. Questions about some of the stuff they are feeding you on Fox or the National Review...

Christ, will you just STFU!

MOONIE WAS BEING SARCASTIC WITH HIS REMARK!!!! There, did you get it this time?
Hey, I resent that. Just because I confessed to being a Republican coward doesn't mean I'm sarcastic. Our greatest President is a coward too. You won't find him or me within a thousand miles of a war. And why didn't Bush return immediately to Washington after 9/11 instead of flying all over the place. Without some solid cowardliness you don't live long enough to get rich. And besides, ya gotta have time to change your pants. This is the Age of Bush and a coward is a hero.

 
But for the Presidents order to invoke Article 51 of the UN Charter and using US forces and others defend the United States against an immanent attack upon the US by Iraqi forces using WMD and other weapons... none of this would be occurring.

If I gave someone an order to do something or another that order had better be followed! The immediate remedy to that condition would be to refer to regulations contained in our friendly rule book. My next in line can relieve me of command if that order is unlawful. (As I remember) It is his responsibility to do that. But, to defy my lawful order in combat conditions ..... would just tick me off to no end. Now then... if the person cannot carry out the order due to conditions significantly different than what I considered in the generation of my order a revaluation is in order and if I persist in my order as previously issued I hope someone below or above me Would relieve me..


edit to add 'or above'

 
Moonie is a Nacilbuper... wow... I thought he was an burned out Hippie.. or a Generation X pseudo Hippie..

Wow... just Wow.. 🙂
 
Now this is news to me. Since the begining of the second round of troops being sent to Iraq, I have had the pleasure of training all the units going. The local commanders did eberything within their power to ensure that the men and women were trained. Not only the infantry units but supporting units as well.

Let me give you the low down on the country. All services are working toward a common goal. The infantry units are sent to the distant places, run operations 24/7 with little to no down time. The do not have much support and when supplies are needed the call the desk jockey. The desk jockey then in turn contacts the supporting unit and they load up supplies and deliver them to the location given.
When this platoon refused to deliver the fuel, they put the receiving unit in a bad position. They take for granted that every place they travel that they will be given armed escorst....WRONG.
They are crying about not haveing gun vehicles or gun ships protecting them.
That would probally be due to the fact that the gun vehicles and gun ships are doing their job which is to support the infantry, you know the guys who are trading fire with the enemy.
Besides the last I checked, every service member going into country received additional training, were required to conduct a BZO with their assigned weapon. Last but not least, first and formost, before you are a truck driver, clerk or a cook, you are a rifleman to the core. They have the training to provide protection for their own convoy, so why didn't they?
I would only hope that the unit that was supposed to be supplied didn't lose any lives due to this act of treason. I hope all of them are greated with Special Court Marshal, BCD, do time and sent packing.
 
Originally posted by: MisterMe
Originally posted by: Klixxer
Was a good thread until MisterMe needed to flash his e-cock.
And a nice one it is wouldn't you agree? Taking the time to check the facts and forming my own opinion based on the facts, looks like my posts were quite outnumbered...9 to 3 if I still count after an evening's worth of Molson. Considering this, who should be doing the STFUing? Figures. Hey, I was just remaining steadfast in my resolve you know?

So to this you reply...Cmon, I know you want to...just letter rip...You were full of it before so I know you're still full of it...

You are welcome to read my posts before your idiotic post, they were on topic and to the point, factual and correct, the first troll in this thread was your OT post.

Now if we can get this thread back on track, it would be nice. so STFU!
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Klixxer
Originally posted by: MisterMe
Oooo ya, stung me on that one! AOL? No, I've got an OC3 with a server farm right in my living room. Check your sarcasm meter. Conzzider it a lesson learned that I wouldn't be cenzzored trying to get a point acrozz. I'll have to have learned at some point...maybe with 1000+ and 5000+ posts I will have learned from some of the best.

Nope, don't know Moonbeam, just saw a post that was off base with erogneous content...kinda like you guys saw in my reply.

Ambulance chaser? Not really offended by that. If that's a person's line of work then maybe that's a good place to get leads. Do what you have to do I guess. A couple hundred million would make my intestines feel a little better...and help pay the med bills for the next 75 years or so...

Liberal? Well, yes, I guess maybe I am turning liberal after all - Never really officially labeled myself that way but if it makes your types feel better then label away. Maybe I'm just flip flopping away from the fear and lies over the last 4 years...not what I believe in.

You make it out to be such a bad thing. You know, forming my own opinion about what's going on in the world. Just got tired of seeing things with my own eyes and being told something entirely different. Seems to me that the right wingers have more explaining to do than a good ol' boy like me. Maybe you guys can follow suit and start asking some questions. Questions about some of the stuff they are feeding you on Fox or the National Review...

Christ, will you just STFU!

MOONIE WAS BEING SARCASTIC WITH HIS REMARK!!!! There, did you get it this time?
Hey, I resent that. Just because I confessed to being a Republican coward doesn't mean I'm sarcastic. Our greatest President is a coward too. You won't find him or me within a thousand miles of a war. And why didn't Bush return immediately to Washington after 9/11 instead of flying all over the place. Without some solid cowardliness you don't live long enough to get rich. And besides, ya gotta have time to change your pants. This is the Age of Bush and a coward is a hero.

Ouchie, the sarcasm is sharp on the edges, be careful how you throw it around. 😉
 
The saddest part of this story is that we're spending all of this money in Iraq and the troops STILL don't have appropriate equipment. Pathetic. Maybe if we didn't spend so much on mercenaries we'd have money for the troops. Supporting the troops my ass.
 
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Infohawk
They are heros.
They are cowards, and you are an idiot, and have no idea what your talking about. When poeple disobey orders, they endanger the lives of everyone else. That fuel needed to be where it was headed there for a reason.

Protesting is one thing, but when you have a job to do, in a place like that., you do it. They will be tried and convicted, and I hope everyone of them court martialed, losing the GI bill that they signed up for hoping they would get a free ride.

Losing GI Bill > Losing Your Life

Good for them. A suicide bomber just killed a few US soldiers by driving into their supply convoy this week. Could have been them in the headlines.
 
Originally posted by: mastertech01
Deadlined can mean many things, and can be something as simple as a small air leak on a compressor. The commander has at his discretion the option to over ride a deadline by simply doing what they call circle X, exemption of the deadline and authorizing the vehicle for the mission with limitations. In Combat it takes quite a bit to deadline a vehicle from mission capable status.

As for the fuel, we dont even know what type fuel it was... just states fuel from what I have read, and many military vehicles are multi-fuel and can run on some pretty crappy fuels and fuel mixes. Hell you can run a 2 1/2 ton cargo truck on a 50/50 blend of diesel and JP4 jet fuel.... I know Ive had to do it. Most fuel trucks, and the vehicles they are used in have large filtration units as well.

Now if this was aviation fuel, I seriously doubt anyone would have attempted to use it in an aircraft with unacceptable contamination levels, but it may have usefull purpose elsewhere.

A good point. As DonVito said...we've only heard the story from one side and are missing many of the specifics. It would be hard to pass a judgement on either side at this point IMO. Extrapolating on mastertech's point...perhaps the commander knew the fuel was contaminated and unusable for aircraft...but there was another place with large trucks or something that badly needed fuel right away. Good uncontaminated fuel might not have been available, or not available fast enough. Perhaps they believed the trucks or whatever would be better off with contaminated fuel that might damage the engines than being stuck with no fuel at all. And perhaps no armored escort was available, because they were more badly needed on another mission.

Even so...if circumstances like those were the case...I think the troops could use more equipment and manpower.

Thank you for that interesting example DonVito btw...but I still don't understand why the commanding officers didn't tell the pilot/AC commander that they did not believe they would be fired on and why they thought that. Frankly, if I were giving the order to do something iffy like that I wouldn't be all mysterious about it...I would have given them I reason for the mission and why I thought it wasn't as dangerous as it sounded.
 
Originally posted by: Grunt03
Now this is news to me. Since the begining of the second round of troops being sent to Iraq, I have had the pleasure of training all the units going. The local commanders did eberything within their power to ensure that the men and women were trained. Not only the infantry units but supporting units as well.

Let me give you the low down on the country. All services are working toward a common goal. The infantry units are sent to the distant places, run operations 24/7 with little to no down time. The do not have much support and when supplies are needed the call the desk jockey. The desk jockey then in turn contacts the supporting unit and they load up supplies and deliver them to the location given.
When this platoon refused to deliver the fuel, they put the receiving unit in a bad position. They take for granted that every place they travel that they will be given armed escorst....WRONG.
They are crying about not haveing gun vehicles or gun ships protecting them.
That would probally be due to the fact that the gun vehicles and gun ships are doing their job which is to support the infantry, you know the guys who are trading fire with the enemy.
Besides the last I checked, every service member going into country received additional training, were required to conduct a BZO with their assigned weapon. Last but not least, first and formost, before you are a truck driver, clerk or a cook, you are a rifleman to the core. They have the training to provide protection for their own convoy, so why didn't they?
I would only hope that the unit that was supposed to be supplied didn't lose any lives due to this act of treason. I hope all of them are greated with Special Court Marshal, BCD, do time and sent packing.
Hello, welcome to ATP&N, im assuming from your name your an 03 Marine (0311 maybe?) unfortunately, unlike the Corps, the Army does not follow the "everyone a rifleman" as the Marines do, these supply guys went straight from boot to quartermaster school, and probably didnt do half the weapons training their Marine counterparts have done since. I know, as I was originally in the S4 shop, doing service for infantry companies, before being reassigned as an 0331, and we were expected to be able to jump right on the front lines with the grunts and do all the basic grunt stuff when the need arose. Even our cooks were highly trained marksmen, and put rounds on target with the best of them when asked. This is a trait enjoyed only by the MC because of our small numbers and need for people to fill multiple job roles. But the Army has much more man power and is more job specific, thier supply equivalents are only expected to deliver supplies, and did not go to a combat school like non-infantry Marines did, plus i think thier higher concentration of women(sorry ladies) makes them a little softer for that sort of thing. My Battalion hasnt had a woman in almost 2 years (except the PR officer who stays in the states anyways) and I did notice in the article that they only interviewed women.
 
All soldiers in the Army recieve basic combat training, and annual marksmanship qualification with M16, annual basic combat skills training including support weapons for selected personnel (50 cal machine gun, M60 machinegun, grenade launcher, AT4 anti tank weapon, etc) and regular refresher training. No they arent all Green Beret, Rangers, or Infantry specialists, but all have the basic skills. This does not exempt them from needing armed escort when possible, but also does not relegate them as wimpy helpless support people either. It is upon the discretion and assessment of the commander to determine the threat level. They should have a recon report and other intel prior the planning of any convoy movement and to determine what assets are necessary to execute the mission.

We still have no details, but it was reported that the mission was completed by other personnel, which doesnt bode well for these.
 
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

:thumbsup: And DonVito (and cpumaster!) get the credit for the first intelligent replies to this entire thread.

Of course we don't want an army of unthinking drones who would mow down their own mothers if ordered to do so, but we also do not need grunts taking it upon themselves to decide which orders they will obey and which they will refuse based upon thier own limited knowledge of the larger situation. We need a lot more details on this before we can make any serious judgements here.
When did you serve? Which branch? Just curious.
I never have served. I think DonVito has military background, however.

What exactly in my post made you think that I may have served? I assume it was my opinion that our troops should neither be unthinking killing machines nor uncooperative philosophy students. I didn't think you had to be a member of a group in order to recognize the negative consequences of extremist behavior. Perhaps you should retract all your negative criticism about the President, as I assume you've never held that office yourself? I mean, who are you to judge someone? :roll:
Huh? Easy there, bucky. You seem a little bit edgy. 😛
😕 Not edgy, just genuinely curious as to why you asked such a baseless question. Where were you going with it?
 
Reservists Who Refused Order Tried to Persuade Superiors
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10...onal/19reservists.html
JACKSON, Miss., Oct. 18 - Members of the Army Reserve platoon in Iraq that disobeyed orders to deliver fuel to another base last week had tried to persuade their superiors for hours to cancel the mission, relatives of the soldiers said Monday.

That defying an order had become an option for 18 members of the 343rd Quartermaster Company seemed to signal a worsening of the low morale that had plagued the unit.

The 13th Corps Support Command, which the 343rd belongs to, and its commander, Brig. Gen. James E. Chambers, have been singled out for repeated criticism by soldiers on the Web site and column of David H. Hackworth, a retired Army colonel and decorated veteran of the Korea and Vietnam wars. The Web site, www.hackworth.com, serves as a channel for complaints against military leadership, and Colonel Hackworth calls himself "the voice of the grunt." Mr. Hackworth wrote on Sept. 13 of low morale in the command.

The soldiers who refused their mission had complained to relatives in months past about the poor quality of their trucks and equipment, though they never indicated they would do anything other than pursue changes through the chain of command, the relatives said.

But Kathy Harris said she received an e-mail message from her son, Specialist Aaron Gordon, in which he asked about possible repercussions for disobeying orders. According to the time on the e-mail message, Ms. Harris said it was probably sent between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m. on Oct. 13, Iraq time.

The platoon had returned from a fuel-delivery mission that lasted four to five days, according to accounts of relatives who spoke to the soldiers. The cargo of jet fuel was rejected because it was contaminated with diesel, relatives said. The military has denied that the fuel was unusable.

Some of the trucks, which were due for repairs, broke down on the journey, said Stephanie Parks, the fiancée of Johnny Coates, father of Specialist Major Coates of Charlotte, N.C., a member of the platoon. The platoon returned late on the evening of Oct. 12. At 4 a.m. the next day, they were roused to take the fuel from their base in Tallil to Taji, much farther north, family members said.

"That's when everything went haywire," said Ricky Shealey, father of Specialist Scott Shealey. "My son says they argued for three hours trying to get some sense into them people. They utilized their chain of command. They even had a civilian out there. He said it was contaminated."


The soldiers also feared for their safety, saying their trucks lacked armor and the convoy lacked a proper armed escort, relatives have said.

Soldiers have complained bitterly on Colonel Hackworth's Web site about low morale at the 13th Corps Support Command, and about General Chambers himself. General Chambers said on Sunday in Baghdad that he had ordered a safety review of the 343rd's equipment and trucks. He also said an inquiry had begun into the actions of the soldiers.

Pentagon officials indicated efforts were under way to defuse the situation. For example, the Army is considering returning all but five of the unit's members to duty, one senior official said. But two who may face discipline have past instances of wrongdoing in Iraq, in particular of substance abuse, the official said. He did not give names and the accusations could not be confirmed.

The accusations have incensed relatives of the soldiers. "They have to make them look bad," said Stacy Shealey, Specialist Shealey's sister. "It's just another reason to mess with them."

I can't say I blame them for disobeying orders after reading that.
 
Originally posted by: Grunt03
Now this is news to me. Since the begining of the second round of troops being sent to Iraq, I have had the pleasure of training all the units going. The local commanders did eberything within their power to ensure that the men and women were trained. Not only the infantry units but supporting units as well.

Let me give you the low down on the country. All services are working toward a common goal. The infantry units are sent to the distant places, run operations 24/7 with little to no down time. The do not have much support and when supplies are needed the call the desk jockey. The desk jockey then in turn contacts the supporting unit and they load up supplies and deliver them to the location given.
When this platoon refused to deliver the fuel, they put the receiving unit in a bad position. They take for granted that every place they travel that they will be given armed escorst....WRONG.
They are crying about not haveing gun vehicles or gun ships protecting them.
That would probally be due to the fact that the gun vehicles and gun ships are doing their job which is to support the infantry, you know the guys who are trading fire with the enemy.
Besides the last I checked, every service member going into country received additional training, were required to conduct a BZO with their assigned weapon. Last but not least, first and formost, before you are a truck driver, clerk or a cook, you are a rifleman to the core. They have the training to provide protection for their own convoy, so why didn't they?
I would only hope that the unit that was supposed to be supplied didn't lose any lives due to this act of treason. I hope all of them are greated with Special Court Marshal, BCD, do time and sent packing.

You trained ALL the units going, you have to grow up and realize that obvious lies like that won't hold up.

You are dismissed [deleted].

---

Consider the above deletion your one warning. I do not care how strong your feelings are on this subject, the rudeness is uncalled for. Another like that will result in a well earned vacation.

AnandTech Moderator
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Reservists Who Refused Order Tried to Persuade Superiors
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10...onal/19reservists.html
JACKSON, Miss., Oct. 18 - Members of the Army Reserve platoon in Iraq that disobeyed orders to deliver fuel to another base last week had tried to persuade their superiors for hours to cancel the mission, relatives of the soldiers said Monday.

That defying an order had become an option for 18 members of the 343rd Quartermaster Company seemed to signal a worsening of the low morale that had plagued the unit.

The 13th Corps Support Command, which the 343rd belongs to, and its commander, Brig. Gen. James E. Chambers, have been singled out for repeated criticism by soldiers on the Web site and column of David H. Hackworth, a retired Army colonel and decorated veteran of the Korea and Vietnam wars. The Web site, www.hackworth.com, serves as a channel for complaints against military leadership, and Colonel Hackworth calls himself "the voice of the grunt." Mr. Hackworth wrote on Sept. 13 of low morale in the command.

The soldiers who refused their mission had complained to relatives in months past about the poor quality of their trucks and equipment, though they never indicated they would do anything other than pursue changes through the chain of command, the relatives said.

But Kathy Harris said she received an e-mail message from her son, Specialist Aaron Gordon, in which he asked about possible repercussions for disobeying orders. According to the time on the e-mail message, Ms. Harris said it was probably sent between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m. on Oct. 13, Iraq time.

The platoon had returned from a fuel-delivery mission that lasted four to five days, according to accounts of relatives who spoke to the soldiers. The cargo of jet fuel was rejected because it was contaminated with diesel, relatives said. The military has denied that the fuel was unusable.

Some of the trucks, which were due for repairs, broke down on the journey, said Stephanie Parks, the fiancée of Johnny Coates, father of Specialist Major Coates of Charlotte, N.C., a member of the platoon. The platoon returned late on the evening of Oct. 12. At 4 a.m. the next day, they were roused to take the fuel from their base in Tallil to Taji, much farther north, family members said.

"That's when everything went haywire," said Ricky Shealey, father of Specialist Scott Shealey. "My son says they argued for three hours trying to get some sense into them people. They utilized their chain of command. They even had a civilian out there. He said it was contaminated."


The soldiers also feared for their safety, saying their trucks lacked armor and the convoy lacked a proper armed escort, relatives have said.

Soldiers have complained bitterly on Colonel Hackworth's Web site about low morale at the 13th Corps Support Command, and about General Chambers himself. General Chambers said on Sunday in Baghdad that he had ordered a safety review of the 343rd's equipment and trucks. He also said an inquiry had begun into the actions of the soldiers.

Pentagon officials indicated efforts were under way to defuse the situation. For example, the Army is considering returning all but five of the unit's members to duty, one senior official said. But two who may face discipline have past instances of wrongdoing in Iraq, in particular of substance abuse, the official said. He did not give names and the accusations could not be confirmed.

The accusations have incensed relatives of the soldiers. "They have to make them look bad," said Stacy Shealey, Specialist Shealey's sister. "It's just another reason to mess with them."

I can't say I blame them for disobeying orders after reading that.

Oh, so the story changes now?

I love this media warfare, especially when they only get one side of the story.

I am sorry Conjur, but i don't think this is the truth, i think time will tell what is.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
I don't see how their story has changed. We're just seeing more detail on it now.

Can we wait to condemn them until we KNOW the facts, they are, after all fighting for your safety.
 
Originally posted by: KlixxerCan we wait to condemn them until we KNOW the facts, they are, after all fighting for your safety.
IF (the big word) it was contaminated jet fuel, by refusing to make the run, these guys were also fighting for the lives of the pilots who were to fly with bad fuel, and they truly are heros for bringing the entire matter up to public attention.

One paragraph from This Reuters aritcle on the subject says a lot:
Last year, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, complained to the Pentagon his supply situation was so poor it threatened the Army's ability to fight, said an official document revealed by The Washington Post on Monday
Meanwhile, for the entire time, Bush and company have "assured" us that our troops had as much as they needed of everything.... Uh-huh. 😛
 
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