Planet America

[cwjerome]

Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" argues that thanks to America the world is has been -and currently is- moving in the direction of a liberal, capitalist democracy. The outcome is inevitable, and our destiny is resolved. Or is it?

I would agree with this to a certain extent. But he also stated history had "ended" in the sense that the grand ideological differences that marked our past have been forever settled by Western Civilization led by the United States. I bring this up because to me, the so-called War on Terrorism represents perhaps the last powerful global clash in the shaping of 'Planet America'.

That's basically what this whole conflict is about. It's the spasms of a corrupt, dying culture that is on the verge of losing in the marketplace of ideas -Islamic extremism- and now they lash out and try to destroy the engine of their destruction. They hate our political system, our economic system, our religions and our culture... and most of all they hate our power. Another bump in the road to Planet America.

 

[Blackjack2000]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Islam was growing at a staggering rate.

 

[miketheidiot]

America might last a generation before they collapse under their own weight.

That's basically what this whole conflict is about. It's the spasms of a corrupt, dying culture that is on the verge of losing in the marketplace of ideas -Islamic extremism- and now they lash out and try to destroy the engine of their destruction. They hate our political system, our economic system, our religions and our culture... and most of all they hate our power. Another bump in the road to Planet America.

You sir, are an idiot. Actually they could care less about our culture. I doubt the 9/11 people where all pissed off about mcdonalds and wallmart and Jesus Christ. More likely they were unhappy about our relentless oppression and exploitation of the middle east over the last 70 or so years, just like we've methodically massacred and exploited every non-white group we've come across.

 

[cwjerome]

miketheIDIOT: That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Get your Noam Chomsky-America hating ass outta here, I created this topic for serious discussion, not for idiot hack jobs like yourself to post cave-man scribble.

 

[flawlssdistortn]

I would not consider the entire middle east as a mere "bump" in the road. We have seen the extremes that these people will go to. By no means should anyone say that "the outcome is inevitable, and our destiny is resolved." By agreeing with Fukuyama's statements you reveal an arrogance that is pervasive throughout the American culture.

 

[cwjerome]

I would agree with Fukuyama to an extent, but not totally. There is no doubt that the US continues to dominate economically, politically, militarily, and culturally. The primary antagonist to this is now radical Islamic extremism . This is the next cold war, but eventually -just like with communism- it will be overpowered by the virtues of the American System. I do think Western principles are better, and will win out in the long run.

These fundamentalist wack-jobs know their days are numbered. They are incredibly angry and jealous that the world is slowly being Americatized. Western Civilization led by the US will eventually become "World Civilization", and these people who are guided by their inferior, primitive religious ideology are blindly clawing away as their ignorance and evil is exposed. They are losing the battle of ideas, so they've taken it to the battlefied. Make no mistake, the outcome is inevitable... whether it's with our principles or our guns, the only question is how soon and how well will we destroy them.

 

[flawlssdistortn]

First of all communism was not overpowered by democracy, it collapsed on its own as the grand experiment was performed in a country of less-than-grand circumstances (Russia's post revolution turmoil). And Cwjerome, the only thing scarier than your ignorant, one sided, perception of anything not western, is that our president seems to think in exactly the same way. You are so sure that you are right and they are wrong; America is just and they are evil; Western culture is civilized and Arab culture is primitive. And what is your "civilized" opinion as to what should be done?? "the question is how soon and how well we destroy them." I know you must think of yourself as a freedom and democracy loving American, but your narrow, black and white perspective of the world is not far from that of the infamous fascist dictator - need i say it?

 

[cwjerome]

Hmmm, well... I don't think I'm one-sided or ignorant; just honest and objective (and I don't care how PC it is or isn't). I'm just not gettin the anger around here.

I do believe communism collasped because of the pressures placed on it by Westernized nations, especially America, and especially during the 80s. Free and democratic countries are wealthier, more dynamic, and in many ways stronger than the authoritarian manifestations of the Soviet Union. It was a clash of ideals and they crumbled because ours were better at creating a more successful society. Look at where Russia and most of the old Soviet states are now: fairly democratic and fairly capitalistic. You see, better ideas? (if it makes you feel better we can call it "Stalinist" or something, in case you have a soft spot for idea of communism).

I think it's important to clarify that I'm referring to radical Islamic extremists, not Arab culture as a whole. But, this is the same old struggle vs a slightly different creature. Once again we are in a struggle against an ideology that is primitive, nonfunctional, authoritarian, and power-hungry... only this time it's from an ultra-Islamic base instead of the eco-polito base of communism... er, Stalinism. Once again there's a group with backward ideas and a penchant for totalitarianism who are deeply threatened by America's export of freedom and prosperity. Is it arrogant to invoke the term "Planet America?" I have no pride when I say it, it's just how me and other see things going.

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn
First of all communism was not overpowered by democracy, it collapsed on its own as the grand experiment was performed in a country of less-than-grand circumstances (Russia's post revolution turmoil). And Cwjerome, the only thing scarier than your ignorant, one sided, perception of anything not western, is that our president seems to think in exactly the same way. You are so sure that you are right and they are wrong; America is just and they are evil; Western culture is civilized and Arab culture is primitive. And what is your "civilized" opinion as to what should be done?? "the question is how soon and how well we destroy them." I know you must think of yourself as a freedom and democracy loving American, but your narrow, black and white perspective of the world is not far from that of the infamous fascist dictator - need i say it?

After reading this I assume that you either believe the opposite of this to be true, or that there are shades of gray that we need to be considering in our global evaluation.

Personally, I like shades of gray, but they obviously have no place on P&N.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" argues that thanks to America the world is has been -and currently is- moving in the direction of a liberal, capitalist democracy. The outcome is inevitable, and our destiny is resolved. Or is it?

I would agree with this to a certain extent. But he also stated history had "ended" in the sense that the grand ideological differences that marked our past have been forever settled by Western Civilization led by the United States. I bring this up because to me, the so-called War on Terrorism represents perhaps the last powerful global clash in the shaping of 'Planet America'.

That's basically what this whole conflict is about. It's the spasms of a corrupt, dying culture that is on the verge of losing in the marketplace of ideas -Islamic extremism- and now they lash out and try to destroy the engine of their destruction. They hate our political system, our economic system, our religions and our culture... and most of all they hate our power. Another bump in the road to Planet America.

That's one viewpoint...here's another from CIA middle east operative for 30yrs..Scheuer...

They don't hate us for our freedoms, or because we guarantee women the "right" to an abortion, or because Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was such a big hit, but because of our policies in the Middle East and elsewhere, which they see as a war aimed at the eradication of Islam. In this context, as Scheuer puts it:

"The military actions of al-Qaeda and its allies are acts of war, not terrorism; they are part of a defensive jihad sanctioned by the revealed word of God, as contained in the Koran, and the sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammed, the Sunnah. These attacks are meant to advance bin Laden's clear, focused, limited, and widely popular foreign policy goals."

Maybe you guys are saying the same thing but in different ways? Prtty good commentary on book here

 

[arsbanned]

They don't hate us for our freedoms, or because we guarantee women the "right" to an abortion, or because Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was such a big hit, but because of our policies in the Middle East and elsewhere, which they see as a war aimed at the eradication of Islam. In this context, as Scheuer puts it:

"The military actions of al-Qaeda and its allies are acts of war, not terrorism; they are part of a defensive jihad sanctioned by the revealed word of God, as contained in the Koran, and the sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammed, the Sunnah. These attacks are meant to advance bin Laden's clear, focused, limited, and widely popular foreign policy goals."

I'd have to agree with this assessment. The U.S. created this problem throughout years and years of bad policy in the ME. That's just the way it is.

 

[daveshel]

I don't think we can discount in either case the effect of our televised excesses creating an envy for our material wealth and comforts.

 

[cwjerome]

Zebo, good quote by Scheuer. I think I agree with him to a point. Our policies do enrage the extremists, and they do see us as a threat to their religious beliefs. I do believe it's a war (and they use terrorism as a tactic). Yes, their attacks are definately meant to advance their goals. However, I think his analysis is relatively superficial, because it doesn't get to the root causes and ideas behind their war, and he implies much of the blame is on the United States.

The US is not perfect, but what good we have done during the past 100 years is hundreds of times more significant than any bad. We may have inherited old world sins, but we have also passed through a dark ages that still has a hold on millions of backward Islamic extremists. Those waging war against modernity are not isolated madmen, but masses motivated by irrational philosophical ideas. These teachings make say the human mind is an impotent nothing that must prostrate itself before God. It's a philosophic battle of ideas... a 12th century Dark Ages philosophy against a 20th century Enlightened philosophy.

Accordingly, these people hate anyone who champions living on earth over their supernatural afterlife. Anyone who puts validity in science, technology at the expense of their "Faith". Anyone who puts freedom and individualism over collectivism and blind obediance to authority. In short, they want to destroy the core values of Western Civilization- and its greatest output: the United States of America. The reality is some ideals, beliefs, and concepts are BETTER than others. Democracy is better than dictatorship. Human rights are better than oppresion. Republican form of gov't is better than authoritarianism. A free press is better than state controlled media. Pluralism and tolerance is better than racism and intolerance. Open education is better than forced state indoctrination. Freedom is better than slavery. Equality is better than discrimination. Free markets are better than a command economy. The list goes on and on.

Some ideas are better at bringing dignity, choice, safety, health, happiness, and progress to life. Through thousands of years of torturous advancement, Much of the world has identified and accept some of these better ideas. The religious extremists and power-seekers we are battling have not. This isn't a war against nations or a war versus a people: it's a war against backward, primitive, and dangerous IDEAS that threaten the civilized world. The only way to change ideas is to change the power structures in those places.

 

[flawlssdistortn]

Let me just say that although i have raised some objections to a number of cwjerome's statements, I do believe that democracy and capitalism are better concepts than communism and authoritarianism. Yes, I think many countries in the middle east and some in asia would do better with a democractic form of government. However, what I am trying to empasize is that we need to consider that this clash of cultures and ideas has a significant amount of complexity and shades of grey. Yes, America is the world's superpower, and with that power we have the responsibility of being sensitive to people's beliefs, cultures, and their impression of us. I know we must be firm (militarily firm at times), but at the moment our country is trying to change the world in a way that comes off as antagonistic and dominant. This is bound to cause a lot more bloodshed and turmoil than is necessary. You're right cwjerome, it's a war of ideals and beliefs - but we lose credibility every time our soldiers torture prisoners, every time our country exploits another for economic gains. We lost credibility when we invaded Iraq for weapons of mass destruction and found nothing. And when Korea was found to have a nuclear program and we did nothing. We lose credibility when we say "oh, they're just envious of our freedom and our wealth." What an incredibly arrogant statement to make. "Planet America" is an arrogant conception. I know the US is not perfect, but seeing as we have so much influence, it is our responsibility to be MORE perfect. Otherwise, we cause much more hatred and bloodshed. We have to be more objective and sensitive not just for everyone else, but for ourselves as well. If we as citizens to not constantly question our path, our purpose, we endanger ourselves of being led astray, and with the current president, i believe we already have. And let me ask you something cwjerome... Do you think your comfortable way of life (2 cars per family, 3 tv sets, maybe a vacation every once in a while) - do you think this is a lifestyle that our world can support? Do you honestly believe that under democracy and capitalism that most of the population will be able to live like this? You have to admit that it is the sad truth that there just aint enough to go around, and that our country is rich and their country is poor not mainly because democracy is superior but because we are militarily superior. (Im not saying that democracy had nothing to do with our wealth, Im just saying it doesnt have everything to do with it as this thread seems to imply.)

 

[miketheidiot]

The united states in an unyeilding opponent of democracy. We do NOT live in a democracy, or really even a representative democracy for that matter. We have without failure opposed democracy in every instance over the last 160 years, begining with the invasion of Mexico, through the annexation and suppression of the philipines, stabbing saudiarabia in the back after WW1 (although france and england were equally involved) Manufacturing the cold war and WW2, supporting military dictatorships (korea, vietnam, south america, iran, iraq, etc) and ignoring or repressing attempts at democratic reform (hungary, nicaragua). NOWHERE have we ever supported REAL democracy or popular sentiment. If we did this in Iraq, Sistani (sp?) would be incharge right now and things would be much better. We wouldn't be trying to shove chalabi or allawi (two CIA stodges, literally) down their throat.

miketheIDIOT: That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Get your Noam Chomsky-America hating ass outta here, I created this topic for serious discussion, not for idiot hack jobs like yourself to post cave-man scribble.

LOL.

I hate america because I'm trying to save it from itself. Awesome.

 

[cwjerome]

Well... I understand your concern about our image, sensitivity, and being seen as antagonistic and dominant. Certainly we should do all we can to 'grease the gears' as best we can, so that current and future actions are received as well as they can be. But, we must also be careful that doing those things don't hurt or jeopardize the important goals that need to be accomplished.

Clarification- I'm not a person who thinks the radical Islamic extremists are envious of our freedom and wealth. I don't think they want it, I think they hate it. I do think there's a chance that many may be envious of our military power though.

As far as your question goes, I do think that human beings are very intelligent and adapatable. We will progress, and yes, most of the population will eventually be able to achieve a high standard of living.

I do believe there are striking similarities between the Cold War and the so-called "War on Terrorsim", as far as being a major long term ideological battle. But another important historical connection I think deserves looking at is the British Empire, because history tends to repeat itself. The British Empire stretched the globe and involved about 25% of the world's land and people. For all its ugly warts, the Empire brought free market ideas, rule of law, investor protection, relatively incorrupt government, parlimentary concepts, that has enhance global welfare. It wasn't so altruistic, and there were indeed grave injustices. But no orginization has done more to promote the free movement of of ideas, goods, capital, people, and labor than the British Empire. These are more likely to be taken for granted than the sins of the Empire, but its impact on law, order, and modernity is undeniable.

Why is this important? America is the heir to this Empire. It is its offspring and successor. The major difference is that it's not a aggressive, violent conquest. This pax americana isn't enforced by occupation, soldiers and civil servants- it's an informal empire of economic penetration and cultural imperialism. Welcome to our sphere of influence...

Unfortunately, this isn't going over well in the primitive hell-holes around the world where religious oppression, violence, uneducation, and corrupt leaders have led to impoverishment and fanaticism. So as Planet America runs its course, we face another stumbling block... a virulent evil that hates and fears democracy, liberty, freedom, capitalism, and pluralism. This is the next global clash, and this one has just gotten a little hotter. Will this split and destroy America and its supposed "empire"? Or will this be overcome like the cold war we just finished?

 

[cwjerome]

MiketheIDIOT, how exactly are you trying to save America? All I see is a giant ball of ignorant much, the rantings of someone who has spent too much time with his socialist professor or something. Listing all kinds of one-sided, "evil" things about the US is so far out in left field it's hilarious. You truly have no context or no clue do you? Trust me, America does not need "saving", especially from someone like you.

I would address the fanciful statements in your post, but I'd rather keep this on-topic... and sorry for the long posts, I hope that doesn't deter others from chiming in.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
MiketheIDIOT, how exactly are you trying to save America? All I see is a giant ball of ignorant much, the rantings of someone...

Remove mirror, try again.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
MiketheIDIOT, how exactly are you trying to save America? All I see is a giant ball of ignorant much, the rantings of someone who has spent too much time with his socialist professor or something. Listing all kinds of one-sided, "evil" things about the US is so far out in left field it's hilarious. You truly have no context or no clue do you? Trust me, America does not need "saving", especially from someone like you.

I would address the fanciful statements in your post, but I'd rather keep this on-topic... and sorry for the long posts, I hope that doesn't deter others from chiming in.

Your statement lacks ANY substantive response. You have failed to address the issues. Probably because you can't. Why don't you address his arguments instead of addressing him?

 

[Kerouactivist]

I think the OP needs to read some Immanuel Wallerstein

 

[cwjerome]

This is getting discouraging. Infohawk, you want me to address miketheIDIOT's off-topic America-bashing rant, just like you wanted people to buy into your three seriously dumb and limited types of conservative poll. "Just answer, just pick!" you say. Please... what color's the sky in your universe? I didn't create this topic as an America hating dumping ground, and it's not worth the time and effort to respond to his little list of grievances. Go back and read his psychotic posts- so full of hate and anger, forget it, what would be accomplished? You can't reason with someone who says we manufactured WWII.

bthorny: I may take you up on that.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: cwjerome
MiketheIDIOT, how exactly are you trying to save America? All I see is a giant ball of ignorant much, the rantings of someone who has spent too much time with his socialist professor or something. Listing all kinds of one-sided, "evil" things about the US is so far out in left field it's hilarious. You truly have no context or no clue do you? Trust me, America does not need "saving", especially from someone like you.

I would address the fanciful statements in your post, but I'd rather keep this on-topic... and sorry for the long posts, I hope that doesn't deter others from chiming in.

Your statement lacks ANY substantive response. You have failed to address the issues. Probably because you can't. Why don't you address his arguments instead of addressing him?

see sig.

 

[flawlssdistortn]

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

Excellent quote, bthorny!!! This explains my apprehension to cwjerome's confidence in his interpretation of the current world situation and America's "right" direction. Not to say that you are a fool, I think you are very insightful. I just think that we should be as critical if not more critical of our own beliefs and purposes, to make sure we do not deviate from the fundamentals of democracy and capitalism.

I'm glad that there are people in this country that have the ability and the desire to have discussions like this. It's too bad though, that the majority of the public does not have either the mental capacity or the interest to think about anything outside of their immediate lives. By ignoring current events, basically by not caring, many Americans have put our democracy at risk.

 

[cwjerome]

First flawlssdistortn, thanks for being one of the few people I've seen who can make points, disagree, and discuss decently. I know the prez election is soon, but it seems many around here boil EVERYTHING down into their little black and white partisan perspective. That leads to my next comment, that I also appreciate the BR quote. That's why I value other views and ideas, and I hope others will join in also. I basically think my thoughts are on the right track, but I'm probably about as confident with it as you are with your ideas (it's more optimism than confidence).

Although terms like imperialism, empire, and colonization all have very negative connotations today, the same conditions and needs still exist today. The weak still need the strong, and the strong still need an orderly world. And more than ever, there's a need for the efficient and well-governed to export stability and liberty... and open up export and growth. The benign American empire today doesn't resemble the old style colonization of the past: it's a voluntary, cultural empire that brings great benefits to those who participate. Some are involved more than others, but the radical Islamic extremists actively hate the American empire, and wish to destroy it because it's a threat to their ultimate hopes- an Islamic Empire.

When areas become too dangerous for civilized states to tolerate, a 'defensive imperialism' based on Western universals is a perfectly reasonable solution. The most logical way to deal with chaos, and the one most used in the past is colonization. But American colonization is a different animal. The American empire is an "informal" empire and its "colonization" consists of imposing its preferred values. But we are an empire in denial... we must realize it's a global burden that only the US can effectively deal with. The usual American attitude of being a reluctant ruler of other people will have to change somewhat. Since restoring the government of Mexico in 1913, our approach has too often been to fire some shells, march in, hold elections and then get the hell out-- until the next crisis. We must take a Marshal Plan approach... steady, strong, long term. The steady, long term efforts in the ME are under way, and will hopefully be successful.

 

[miketheidiot]

I think you really hate america and you are pretending to be patriotic to further your anti-american agenda.
This might be a good place to start. But we already know what your going to think.