Placebo Effect

[zanejohnson]

i just wanted to say that acupuncture has been proven to work.. it causes an endorphin release, endorphins are real, they are endigonous morphine created by your own body... so by releasing these you get the same "high" that you would get from getting morphine injected in the hospital... this is also the same "high" felt by runners, because physical exertion also gives you this endorphin release... so does orgasm.

 

[spidey07]

Never underestimate the power of the mind. The mind controls the body after all.

If the placebo affect works for them, then great.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: zanejohnson
i just wanted to say that acupuncture has been proven to work.. it causes an endorphin release, endorphins are real, they are endigonous morphine created by your own body... so by releasing these you get the same "high" that you would get from getting morphine injected in the hospital... this is also the same "high" felt by runners, because physical exertion also gives you this endorphin release... so does orgasm.

...so does spicy food... so does a foot massage... so does a dirty joke.

 

[AreaCode707]

Gah, I sat in front of a "magnetic bracelet" saleslady at a play the other day. Before, during intermission, and after the play she kept trying to pitch the woman next to her, who was far more tolerant than I probably would have been.

"Oh, I can feel that you're a very sensitive person. Do you have any health issues? Try on this bracelet, just wear it during the play, you'll be amazed and feel almost entirely better by the end. Have you ever thought of joining the (pyramid scheme) company I work for? They're really fantastic. And you get to help people. Wouldn't it feel good, to get paid for helping people?"

....

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The mind has WAY more control/effect over your body than any drug ever discovered. Whether the control/effect is consciously or subconsciously achieved (through a placebo) it is very real and can be documented.

 

[Oil]

Wait, the magnetic bracelets are a scam? Whew. Thankfully my Kinoki foot pads are proven to work!

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: Oil
Wait, the magnetic bracelets are a scam? Whew. Thankfully my Kinoki foot pads are proven to work!

That brown stuff on the pad is distilled sin. Dispose of with caution.

 

[ObiDon]

"Not a bear in sight. The 'Bear Patrol' is working like a charm!"
"That's specious reasoning, Dad."
"Thanks, honey."
"By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away."
"Hmm. How does it work?"
"It doesn't work; it's just a stupid rock!"
"Uh-huh."
"But I don't see any tigers around, do you?"
"Lisa, I want to buy your rock!"

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
The mind has WAY more control/effect over your body than any drug ever discovered. Whether the control/effect is consciously or subconsciously achieved (through a placebo) it is very real and can be documented.

At least somebody gets it. Thank you.

Basic psychology FTW.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
The mind has WAY more control/effect over your body than any drug ever discovered. Whether the control/effect is consciously or subconsciously achieved (through a placebo) it is very real and can be documented.

At least somebody gets it. Thank you.

Basic psychology FTW.

Indeed, and it's certainly not limited to the realm of the stupid. Of course, many sheisty people take advantage of this and sell gauze for $20 (Kinoki footpads), a $1 magnet for $100+ (bracelets), and whatever else bullshit is out there. But the placebo effect is certainly real.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
The mind has WAY more control/effect over your body than any drug ever discovered. Whether the control/effect is consciously or subconsciously achieved (through a placebo) it is very real and can be documented.

At least somebody gets it. Thank you.

Basic psychology FTW.

Originally posted by: JLee
Mindset is a lot more important than you seem to believe.

 

[DrPizza]

1. The placebo effect is incredibly complex; there is a lot of research trying to understand exactly what goes on with it. DangerAardvark seems to be implying that the effect is largely mental (referring to stupid people). However, research has shown that in many cases when a placebo is given, there are biochemical changes that sometimes are similar to if the actual drug had been given. I think one of the more bizarre studies was related to morphine or some other pain killer - after a patient had been given the actual drug for some length of time, a placebo caused the exact same biochemical reactions in the body when administered; it led to a wtf reaction by researchers.

2. While published research in medical journals agrees with the OP (and I agree as well, after double checking the research) that magnetic bracelets do not help with carpal tunnel, one shouldn't quickly dismiss magnetic therapy for other areas - research supports that magnetic therapy is beneficial in some instances (unrelated as far as I can tell to carpal tunnel)

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
Whats wrong with a placebo if people think it helps them? I drink coffee every morning, otherwise I can't function that well. I don't know if the caffeine is the cause or if its merely that I think it helps, either way I become more alert and I can begin my day in earnest. In the end it doesn't matter to me.

Caffeine.

Seriously, SpunkyJones needs to go read up on why caffeine works...

Caffeine is my favorite drug.

 

[SlitheryDee]

The placebo effect works, sure. But I don't want a placebo. I want something that will work whether I believe in it or not. In the end we aren't getting anywhere by fooling ourselves. "It just works" isn't justification until you can make it work independently of ephemeral things like faith.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
1. The placebo effect is incredibly complex; there is a lot of research trying to understand exactly what goes on with it. DangerAardvark seems to be implying that the effect is largely mental (referring to stupid people). However, research has shown that in many cases when a placebo is given, there are biochemical changes that sometimes are similar to if the actual drug had been given. I think one of the more bizarre studies was related to morphine or some other pain killer - after a patient had been given the actual drug for some length of time, a placebo caused the exact same biochemical reactions in the body when administered; it led to a wtf reaction by researchers.

2. While published research in medical journals agrees with the OP (and I agree as well, after double checking the research) that magnetic bracelets do not help with carpal tunnel, one shouldn't quickly dismiss magnetic therapy for other areas - research supports that magnetic therapy is beneficial in some instances (unrelated as far as I can tell to carpal tunnel)

1. Well mental states can certainly impact endorphin and seratonin release, so I don't think we're disagreeing there. You can also be conditioned into these patterns of endorphin release. So it's definitely not 100% mental. But I think it's reasonable to argue that without the mental component the effect would fail to materialize. The ritual and authority and the sales pitch is catalyzed by the physical aspect.

2. I'll certainly change my mind with sufficient evidence, but I'm not holding my breath for this one. Mainly because there doesn't appear to be a mechanism for this to work unless you buy into that hippy, energy field bullshit. Without understanding how it works, how do you make sure that your methodology is correct in administering it? You can't, so you just take some quack's word for it and tape a few to your head. It's also almost impossible to "blind" a test subject to the presence of a magnet versus a fake magnet in studies involving prolonged use. So, these studies should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, I'd be interested in reading the study to which you refer.

 

[Locut0s]

House?? Is that you?

 

[911paramedic]

If the placebo effect makes them feel better, more power to them.

I just stand in front of an open microwave for 5 minutes a day, makes me feel fuzzy all over. (It's really cool when I light up like a CD.)

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Cogman
I have no idea why, but people LOVE to believe in things that can and has been proven false. I could sell my cut grass as "organic back pain relief" and probably make a decent profit on it. Whats worse is that after I have sold it to one Idiot, they will cling like no other to the belief that it fixes their back problems. They cling to it so hard that anyone telling them it is just grass will be give a "No it isn't, it really does work" kind of statement.

Seriously, have you ever tried to tell someone their copper bracelets/magnetic bracelets are a sham? They won't believe you and will argue with you about how well it works.

Again, I don't know what it is that makes people cling to such things, but something does. Whats scary is once they cling to one thing they seem prone to start down the crazy train of herbal remedies and acupuncture.

Who's to say that it isn't a "problem" with them but instead with you?

Accupuncture is a very theraputic process for a great number of people. Maybe it's your own mind that is the problem and prevents it from being helpful.

Acupuncture is bunk, magnetic bracelets are bunk, horoscopes are bunk, kerlian photography is bunk, psychic phenomena are bunk.

What's wrong with placebos? They represent intellectual dishonesty and a broader embrace of stupidity and mushy brains in our society. Remember, these people vote. And they'll willingly vote for a person who believes in creationism, or consults an a spirit channeler (GW Bush, Ronald Reagan)


See, the side effects of a nation that believes in the "power of prayer" aren't trivial at all.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
So you sell a magnetized bracelet and say it relieves carpal tunnel pain. A significant portion of purchasers report less pain after using it. You've essentially taken their gullibility and sold it back to them. Of course, calling them "stupidity bracelets" might have an impact on sales.

The actual efficacy of the bracelet is completely superfluous to the effect. The important part is the belief in it. Okay, so obviously we can't tell the consumers that it's a placebo effect or the effect will be ruined... or can we? Remember that these people are so stupid that they believe magnets can affect your Chi flow. We can just tell them outright that it's a placebo and that they're really stupid for being affected by it, but that it's okay to be stupid (don't worry, they're stupid enough to believe that). Then we can sell them a book that will essentially be a list of ways to make yourself even more stupid and we'll call it... The Secr... fuck.

Well, if they're reporting less pain, what's the problem? Maybe it's all in their head...maybe they think they'll get better, so they in fact do get better..

Mindset is a lot more important than you seem to believe.

$0.02

The problem is that they are spending their hard earned money on a grift instead of an actual cure -- and many times these people convince others that this woo can cure REAL diseases, leading to people with life threatening illnesses sometimes dying from lack of real treatment.

and this is your business how?

When a grifter tells a parent that a sugar pill can cure their kid's cancer, and the FDA refuses to touch them because they have used weasel words and call it "complimentary/alternative", I have a problem.