Placebo Effect

[DangerAardvark]

So you sell a magnetized bracelet and say it relieves carpal tunnel pain. A significant portion of purchasers report less pain after using it. You've essentially taken their gullibility and sold it back to them. Of course, calling them "stupidity bracelets" might have an impact on sales.

The actual efficacy of the bracelet is completely superfluous to the effect. The important part is the belief in it. Okay, so obviously we can't tell the consumers that it's a placebo effect or the effect will be ruined... or can we? Remember that these people are so stupid that they believe magnets can affect your Chi flow. We can just tell them outright that it's a placebo and that they're really stupid for being affected by it, but that it's okay to be stupid (don't worry, they're stupid enough to believe that). Then we can sell them a book that will essentially be a list of ways to make yourself even more stupid and we'll call it... The Secr... fuck.

 

[Joemonkey]

You need to watch some Penn and Teller's bullshit episodes, specifically the one on chiropractics

 

[theprodigalrebel]

I would vote for Raptor Jesus. Twice.

 

[Cogman]

I have no idea why, but people LOVE to believe in things that can and has been proven false. I could sell my cut grass as "organic back pain relief" and probably make a decent profit on it. Whats worse is that after I have sold it to one Idiot, they will cling like no other to the belief that it fixes their back problems. They cling to it so hard that anyone telling them it is just grass will be give a "No it isn't, it really does work" kind of statement.

Seriously, have you ever tried to tell someone their copper bracelets/magnetic bracelets are a sham? They won't believe you and will argue with you about how well it works.

Again, I don't know what it is that makes people cling to such things, but something does. Whats scary is once they cling to one thing they seem prone to start down the crazy train of herbal remedies and acupuncture.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Cogman
I have no idea why, but people LOVE to believe in things that can and has been proven false. I could sell my cut grass as "organic back pain relief" and probably make a decent profit on it. Whats worse is that after I have sold it to one Idiot, they will cling like no other to the belief that it fixes their back problems. They cling to it so hard that anyone telling them it is just grass will be give a "No it isn't, it really does work" kind of statement.

Seriously, have you ever tried to tell someone their copper bracelets/magnetic bracelets are a sham? They won't believe you and will argue with you about how well it works.

Again, I don't know what it is that makes people cling to such things, but something does. Whats scary is once they cling to one thing they seem prone to start down the crazy train of herbal remedies and acupuncture.

Who's to say that it isn't a "problem" with them but instead with you?

Accupuncture is a very theraputic process for a great number of people. Maybe it's your own mind that is the problem and prevents it from being helpful.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: vi edit
Who's to say that it isn't a "problem" with them but instead with you?

Accupuncture is a very theraputic process for a great number of people. Maybe it's your own mind that is the problem and prevents it from being helpful.

Might I present Exhibit A. Show me a clinical study that show acupuncture curing the need for smoking and I might consider this claim. But again, I could give someone a rock and say it does everything that acupuncture does if they just put it under their pillow and guess what, they would probably believe it (As long as the rock is shiny and I sound authoritative)

 

[SpunkyJones]

Whats wrong with a placebo if people think it helps them? I drink coffee every morning, otherwise I can't function that well. I don't know if the caffeine is the cause or if its merely that I think it helps, either way I become more alert and I can begin my day in earnest. In the end it doesn't matter to me.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
Whats wrong with a placebo if people think it helps them? I drink coffee every morning, otherwise I can't function that well. I don't know if the caffeine is the cause or if its merely that I think it helps, either way I become more alert and I can begin my day in earnest. In the end it doesn't matter to me.

Caffeine.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Cogman
I have no idea why, but people LOVE to believe in things that can and has been proven false. I could sell my cut grass as "organic back pain relief" and probably make a decent profit on it. Whats worse is that after I have sold it to one Idiot, they will cling like no other to the belief that it fixes their back problems. They cling to it so hard that anyone telling them it is just grass will be give a "No it isn't, it really does work" kind of statement.

Seriously, have you ever tried to tell someone their copper bracelets/magnetic bracelets are a sham? They won't believe you and will argue with you about how well it works.

Again, I don't know what it is that makes people cling to such things, but something does. Whats scary is once they cling to one thing they seem prone to start down the crazy train of herbal remedies and acupuncture.

Who's to say that it isn't a "problem" with them but instead with you?

Accupuncture is a very theraputic process for a great number of people. Maybe it's your own mind that is the problem and prevents it from being helpful.

But acupuncture is a medically approved procedure for relieving lower back pain, it's just not supported by many insurance companies because they're are cheaper methods. The problem comes when people try to use it for a lot more than that

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
Whats wrong with a placebo if people think it helps them? I drink coffee every morning, otherwise I can't function that well. I don't know if the caffeine is the cause or if its merely that I think it helps, either way I become more alert and I can begin my day in earnest. In the end it doesn't matter to me.

Caffeine.

But if he's drinking it every day in the same quantities, caffeine no longer has as much of a rejuvenating effect as he thinks it should. He might just be satisfying his cravings.

For instance, I rarely drink caffeine, and my energy levels are the same as those who drink it regularly. When I do drink it, I feel a lot more energetic than everyone else who drinks it regularly. That's the result of not being addicted to caffeine. Everyone else is pretty much just "normalizing" when they drink coffee every day because they've built a tolerance.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
Whats wrong with a placebo if people think it helps them? I drink coffee every morning, otherwise I can't function that well. I don't know if the caffeine is the cause or if its merely that I think it helps, either way I become more alert and I can begin my day in earnest. In the end it doesn't matter to me.

Caffeine.

But if he's drinking it every day in the same quantities, caffeine no longer has as much of a rejuvenating effect as he thinks it should. He might just be satisfying his cravings.

For instance, I rarely drink caffeine, and my energy levels are the same as those who drink it regularly. When I do drink it, I feel a lot more energetic than everyone else who drinks it regularly. That's the result of not being addicted to caffeine. Everyone else is pretty much just "normalizing" when they drink coffee every day.

coffe was a bad example on his part. its a known addictive drug with known effects, not a placebo.

now, if someone is giving him decaf and telling him its regular, and he feels ok, *then* its a placebo because he *thinks* its coffee, but really its lousy crap.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Cogman
I have no idea why, but people LOVE to believe in things that can and has been proven false. I could sell my cut grass as "organic back pain relief" and probably make a decent profit on it. Whats worse is that after I have sold it to one Idiot, they will cling like no other to the belief that it fixes their back problems. They cling to it so hard that anyone telling them it is just grass will be give a "No it isn't, it really does work" kind of statement.

Seriously, have you ever tried to tell someone their copper bracelets/magnetic bracelets are a sham? They won't believe you and will argue with you about how well it works.

Again, I don't know what it is that makes people cling to such things, but something does. Whats scary is once they cling to one thing they seem prone to start down the crazy train of herbal remedies and acupuncture.

Who's to say that it isn't a "problem" with them but instead with you?

Accupuncture is a very theraputic process for a great number of people. Maybe it's your own mind that is the problem and prevents it from being helpful.

But acupuncture is a medically approved procedure for relieving lower back pain, it's just not supported by many insurance companies because they're are cheaper methods. The problem comes when people try to use it for a lot more than that

"medically approved?" By who?

 

[darkxshade]

You bought some Q Rays in the past haven't you?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

You know, this does transition to every fuel saving device that comes out. I think the only one that would actually do good is a brick to go underneath the gas pedal.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
So you sell a magnetized bracelet and say it relieves carpal tunnel pain. A significant portion of purchasers report less pain after using it. You've essentially taken their gullibility and sold it back to them. Of course, calling them "stupidity bracelets" might have an impact on sales.

The actual efficacy of the bracelet is completely superfluous to the effect. The important part is the belief in it. Okay, so obviously we can't tell the consumers that it's a placebo effect or the effect will be ruined... or can we? Remember that these people are so stupid that they believe magnets can affect your Chi flow. We can just tell them outright that it's a placebo and that they're really stupid for being affected by it, but that it's okay to be stupid (don't worry, they're stupid enough to believe that). Then we can sell them a book that will essentially be a list of ways to make yourself even more stupid and we'll call it... The Secr... fuck.

There was some real estate seminar at my university, and I happened to be working at the event, serving as tech support in case anything went wrong, and helping people use the computer for presentations. But the guy doing it showed them "The Secret," and he made it out to be the most amazingly wonderful thing ever. He told me that if I'd go watch it, it'd make my homework seem utterly futile and meaningless. I did catch a few minutes of it here and there. They even had some "quantum physicist" talking, complete with a whimsical background of little atoms and sciencey graphics, to make it all look totally legitimate.

Really....really.....really....stupid.
Chicken Droppings for the Soul.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
So you sell a magnetized bracelet and say it relieves carpal tunnel pain. A significant portion of purchasers report less pain after using it. You've essentially taken their gullibility and sold it back to them. Of course, calling them "stupidity bracelets" might have an impact on sales.

The actual efficacy of the bracelet is completely superfluous to the effect. The important part is the belief in it. Okay, so obviously we can't tell the consumers that it's a placebo effect or the effect will be ruined... or can we? Remember that these people are so stupid that they believe magnets can affect your Chi flow. We can just tell them outright that it's a placebo and that they're really stupid for being affected by it, but that it's okay to be stupid (don't worry, they're stupid enough to believe that). Then we can sell them a book that will essentially be a list of ways to make yourself even more stupid and we'll call it... The Secr... fuck.

Well, if they're reporting less pain, what's the problem? Maybe it's all in their head...maybe they think they'll get better, so they in fact do get better..

Mindset is a lot more important than you seem to believe.

$0.02

 

[sao123]

the placebo effect... arent birthing mothers supposed to eat their placebo after birth or soemthing? :light:

 

[So]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
So you sell a magnetized bracelet and say it relieves carpal tunnel pain. A significant portion of purchasers report less pain after using it. You've essentially taken their gullibility and sold it back to them. Of course, calling them "stupidity bracelets" might have an impact on sales.

The actual efficacy of the bracelet is completely superfluous to the effect. The important part is the belief in it. Okay, so obviously we can't tell the consumers that it's a placebo effect or the effect will be ruined... or can we? Remember that these people are so stupid that they believe magnets can affect your Chi flow. We can just tell them outright that it's a placebo and that they're really stupid for being affected by it, but that it's okay to be stupid (don't worry, they're stupid enough to believe that). Then we can sell them a book that will essentially be a list of ways to make yourself even more stupid and we'll call it... The Secr... fuck.

Well, if they're reporting less pain, what's the problem? Maybe it's all in their head...maybe they think they'll get better, so they in fact do get better..

Mindset is a lot more important than you seem to believe.

$0.02

The problem is that they are spending their hard earned money on a grift instead of an actual cure -- and many times these people convince others that this woo can cure REAL diseases, leading to people with life threatening illnesses sometimes dying from lack of real treatment.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Cogman
I have no idea why, but people LOVE to believe in things that can and has been proven false. I could sell my cut grass as "organic back pain relief" and probably make a decent profit on it. Whats worse is that after I have sold it to one Idiot, they will cling like no other to the belief that it fixes their back problems. They cling to it so hard that anyone telling them it is just grass will be give a "No it isn't, it really does work" kind of statement.

Seriously, have you ever tried to tell someone their copper bracelets/magnetic bracelets are a sham? They won't believe you and will argue with you about how well it works.

Again, I don't know what it is that makes people cling to such things, but something does. Whats scary is once they cling to one thing they seem prone to start down the crazy train of herbal remedies and acupuncture.

Who's to say that it isn't a "problem" with them but instead with you?

Accupuncture is a very theraputic process for a great number of people. Maybe it's your own mind that is the problem and prevents it from being helpful.

But acupuncture is a medically approved procedure for relieving lower back pain, it's just not supported by many insurance companies because they're are cheaper methods. The problem comes when people try to use it for a lot more than that

"medically approved?" By who?

My family MD for one, oh and she is a Harvard med school grad. so bit me.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
So you sell a magnetized bracelet and say it relieves carpal tunnel pain. A significant portion of purchasers report less pain after using it. You've essentially taken their gullibility and sold it back to them. Of course, calling them "stupidity bracelets" might have an impact on sales.

The actual efficacy of the bracelet is completely superfluous to the effect. The important part is the belief in it. Okay, so obviously we can't tell the consumers that it's a placebo effect or the effect will be ruined... or can we? Remember that these people are so stupid that they believe magnets can affect your Chi flow. We can just tell them outright that it's a placebo and that they're really stupid for being affected by it, but that it's okay to be stupid (don't worry, they're stupid enough to believe that). Then we can sell them a book that will essentially be a list of ways to make yourself even more stupid and we'll call it... The Secr... fuck.

Well, if they're reporting less pain, what's the problem? Maybe it's all in their head...maybe they think they'll get better, so they in fact do get better..

Mindset is a lot more important than you seem to believe.

$0.02

The problem is that they are spending their hard earned money on a grift instead of an actual cure -- and many times these people convince others that this woo can cure REAL diseases, leading to people with life threatening illnesses sometimes dying from lack of real treatment.

and this is your business how?

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Cogman
I have no idea why, but people LOVE to believe in things that can and has been proven false. I could sell my cut grass as "organic back pain relief" and probably make a decent profit on it. Whats worse is that after I have sold it to one Idiot, they will cling like no other to the belief that it fixes their back problems. They cling to it so hard that anyone telling them it is just grass will be give a "No it isn't, it really does work" kind of statement.

Seriously, have you ever tried to tell someone their copper bracelets/magnetic bracelets are a sham? They won't believe you and will argue with you about how well it works.

Again, I don't know what it is that makes people cling to such things, but something does. Whats scary is once they cling to one thing they seem prone to start down the crazy train of herbal remedies and acupuncture.

Who's to say that it isn't a "problem" with them but instead with you?

Accupuncture is a very theraputic process for a great number of people. Maybe it's your own mind that is the problem and prevents it from being helpful.

But acupuncture is a medically approved procedure for relieving lower back pain, it's just not supported by many insurance companies because they're are cheaper methods. The problem comes when people try to use it for a lot more than that

"medically approved?" By who?

My family MD for one, oh and she is a Harvard med school grad. so bit me.

Medically approved != scientifically demonstrated.

 

[beer]

If the placebo effect only affected dumb people, don't you think pharmaceutical companies could get rid of the need for double-blind studies by just doing clinical trials with smart people, say, by giving them IQ tests to screen?

Oh, wait, it doesn't work like that....

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Cogman
I have no idea why, but people LOVE to believe in things that can and has been proven false. I could sell my cut grass as "organic back pain relief" and probably make a decent profit on it. Whats worse is that after I have sold it to one Idiot, they will cling like no other to the belief that it fixes their back problems. They cling to it so hard that anyone telling them it is just grass will be give a "No it isn't, it really does work" kind of statement.

Seriously, have you ever tried to tell someone their copper bracelets/magnetic bracelets are a sham? They won't believe you and will argue with you about how well it works.

Again, I don't know what it is that makes people cling to such things, but something does. Whats scary is once they cling to one thing they seem prone to start down the crazy train of herbal remedies and acupuncture.

Who's to say that it isn't a "problem" with them but instead with you?

Accupuncture is a very theraputic process for a great number of people. Maybe it's your own mind that is the problem and prevents it from being helpful.

But acupuncture is a medically approved procedure for relieving lower back pain, it's just not supported by many insurance companies because they're are cheaper methods. The problem comes when people try to use it for a lot more than that

"medically approved?" By who?

My family MD for one, oh and she is a Harvard med school grad. so bit me.

Does she also approve sugar pills?

 

[mb]

Originally posted by: xSauronx

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
Whats wrong with a placebo if people think it helps them? I drink coffee every morning, otherwise I can't function that well. I don't know if the caffeine is the cause or if its merely that I think it helps, either way I become more alert and I can begin my day in earnest. In the end it doesn't matter to me.

Caffeine.

But if he's drinking it every day in the same quantities, caffeine no longer has as much of a rejuvenating effect as he thinks it should. He might just be satisfying his cravings.

For instance, I rarely drink caffeine, and my energy levels are the same as those who drink it regularly. When I do drink it, I feel a lot more energetic than everyone else who drinks it regularly. That's the result of not being addicted to caffeine. Everyone else is pretty much just "normalizing" when they drink coffee every day.

coffe was a bad example on his part. its a known addictive drug with known effects, not a placebo.

now, if someone is giving him decaf and telling him its regular, and he feels ok, *then* its a placebo because he *thinks* its coffee, but really its lousy crap.

Even that would depend on how addicted he is/was to the caffeine, because decaf coffee still has caffeine in it, so after a few slightly groggy days he may not realize it was switched.

Remember: coffee naturally has caffeine in it and not all of it can be removed. I always get a kick out of it when news stations do a report on caffeine content in decaf coffee :roll:

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: beer
If the placebo effect only affected dumb people, don't you think pharmaceutical companies could get rid of the need for double-blind studies by just doing clinical trials with smart people, say, by giving them IQ tests to screen?

Oh, wait, it doesn't work like that....

If you went into a double-blind study with a healthy amount of skepticism it WOULDN'T work. Smart is probably the wrong word since smart people are as adept at fooling themselves as dumb people. Besides, anyone who even knows the word "double-blind" knows they have a chance of getting a placebo, thus reducing its effectiveness. Belief, motivation, and expectation are essential to the placebo effect. A skeptic can certainly have motivation, but belief and expectation come a little harder.

As for acupuncture, many studies (Text, Text) have shown it to be no more effective than random poking. In other words, a placebo. But even if you're not convinced that it's a placebo, at least admit that "Chi" and "Meridians" are complete bullshit. Also keep in mind that measuring pain relief is imprecise at best, especially since sufferers often change many things in their life at once while undergoing these studies. That's why these New Age remedies lurk in the gray area of subjectivity.