Yes, anyone who uses Process Explorer will know how annoying Securom can be. It's absurd that opening a program can make half of your games stop working. If that isn't malware, I don't know what is.
Yes, anyone who uses Process Explorer will know how annoying Securom can be. It's absurd that opening a program can make half of your games stop working. If that isn't malware, I don't know what is.
- Jan 9, 2008
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I have to disagree. When I have to enter a serial number, activate on the net, or i'm forced to install malware onto my machine, that tells me the company I bought the game from doesn't trust me. Which makes no sense because I bought the game. The actual criminals or pirates who downloaded the game don't have to deal with any of that.
It's like when you buy a movie on DVD and it has an anti-pirate message at the beginning that you can't skip. You know, the ones with all the big celebrities telling you how much pirating hurts the industry. Well it's a flawed premise since the only people who are forced to watch it are the ones who actually bought the DVD.. The pirates will get a version without any of that crap.
Oh, and let me ask you this.. In a couple of years when you have 5, 10, maybe 15 games installed on your computer and you want to install that new fancy new graphics card you just picked up at best buy.. how happy are you going to be when you have to "deactivate" those 15 games just to install it. If that's not being treated like a criminal I don't know what is.
myocardia
Diamond Member
- Jun 21, 2003
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Why exactly would they trust you, do they know you? I can tell you, I don't trust you. I don't trust anyone I don't know. And you don't have to enter a serial number, you have to enter a CD key. There's a reason they're called that. It's because when you buy something that needs to be unlocked, it will come with a key. These newfangled keys keep people who don't own something from using it. It's actually a great concept.
Of course it makes sense. Do you happen to own a car? Does it anger you that it requires a key to operate? Are you boycotting buying any automobile manufacturer that has produced any automobiles in the past 50 or so years? If you aren't, care to explain why? Every one of them requires a key every single time you use it, not just the first time you use it, and every time you rebuild the engine, like a CD key.
And the criminals who steal cars don't have to use a key, yet everytime I want to operate the car that I actually bought, I have to use a key. I think I'll sue the company that made my car, so they'll know that we won't stand for things like this. Am I sounding as ridiculous as you are yet?
Are we just making things up now? If you don't know the proper way to install graphics drivers, I'd be happy to tell you how. Deactivating games isn't even part of the process.
edit: Oh, I forgot to mention internet activation. Never buy a game that requires internet activation. What happens when the company goes out of business? You'll be screwed, that's what. This is by far the worst idea ever, and shouldn't even be included with appropriate anti-theft devices, like CD keys and SecuRom.
Originally posted by: myocardia
Why exactly would they trust you, do they know you? I can tell you, I don't trust you. I don't trust anyone I don't know. And you don't have to enter a serial number, you have to enter a CD key. There's a reason they're called that. It's because when you buy something that needs to be unlocked, it will come with a key. These newfangled keys keep people who don't own something from using it. It's actually a great concept.
Of course it makes sense. Do you happen to own a car? Does it anger you that it requires a key to operate? Are you boycotting buying any automobile manufacturer that has produced any automobiles in the past 50 or so years? If you aren't, care to explain why? Every one of them requires a key every single time you use it, not just the first time you use it, and every time you rebuild the engine, like a CD key.
And the criminals who steal cars don't have to use a key, yet everytime I want to operate the car that I actually bought, I have to use a key. I think I'll sue the company that made my car, so they'll know that we won't stand for things like this. Am I sounding as ridiculous as you are yet?
Are we just making things up now? If you don't know the proper way to install graphics drivers, I'd be happy to tell you how. Deactivating games isn't even part of the process.
He's not talking about drivers, he's talking about a new card. Did you even read his post?
Case in point for DRM costing companies sales: I downloaded the demo for Sacred 2 today. I liked the game and almost purchased a UK copy until I learned it had TWO activation limit AND SecuROM.
People who defend DRM are idiots who are disconnected with reality. Period.
myocardia
Diamond Member
- Jun 21, 2003
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You've obviously never installed a video card card. I'll go over the steps of upgrading a video card for you:
1) Remove drivers for old card.
2) Remove old card.
3) Install new card.
4) Boot to safe mode, and run Driver Cleaner Pro, or Driver Sweeper, to remove remnants of old driver.
5) Install drivers for new card.
That's the only steps involved. Period. Activating or deactivating games has nothing to do with video card (and their drivers, which they refuse to operate without) installation.
Personal attacks aren't allowed here, but since you're obviously an utter noob who doesn't even understand the extremely simple steps of replacing a video card, I won't take offense, but using your invalid logic, wouldn't that make anyone who is against anti-theft devices a thief?
Sorry, it wasn't meant as a personal attack against you. Perhaps it would have been better phrased as, "people who defend things they do not understand, like how swapping video cards counts as a hardware change and can make you reactivate your games, make me feel angry and sad and unhappy and silly and
inside."But what do I know? I'm an utter noob who doesn't understand computarz.
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Car keys are meant to protect our car from being stolen, so that benefits us as the customer. SecuROM is in place to protect the company selling you the product, not the customer. I'd say there is a big difference there. One inconveniences the user but the benefits they gain outweigh the hassle. The other has no benefits for the user, so it's just a hassle.
Plus, we all know SecuROM doesn't prevent piracy, so I don't see how anyone can argue that it's in place for any reason other than screwing legit customers. And by screwing them i'm talking about the ultimate goal of SecuROM, which is severely disabling the used market for PC games.
If you make any major hardware changes and you have SecuROM "protected" games installed, you have to reactivate them before they'll work again. This includes replacing graphics cards. So you'll need to deactivate the game(s) (or revoke the install) prior to installing your card or else you'll end up using another install.
I agree. So why are you saying you see nothing wrong with SecuROM?
You do realize that games using the new SR version, Mass Effect, Spore, Crysis War Head, Far Cry 2, etc.. require internet activation.
This, by the way, is not limited to Securom but also includes some other DRM systems. I recently had Quake 4, which is generally considered a "clean" game, suddenly complain about my CD key after I changed my video card (I had loaded it briefly on the old card a month earlier and it was working fine then). I had installed it a few years ago and couldn't find the paper-style CD case now, so I had to use a serial from a crack site and block the game in my firewall to play my legit copy. :roll:
coloumb
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
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Do you have proof to back up your claim the used game market is being severely disabled or is this just some false claim that you're trying to spread? Hrm..let's see - there are de-activation programs in place to help deactivate your install so the game can be re-install or re-sold. A quick look on ebay will show that people are still selling used games! And by god - you can resell and sell used console games as well!! And.. wow - I just sold a couple of PC games on ebay just a few weeks ago! The sky isn't falling chicken little...the sky ISN'T falling...
Locks on cars don't prevent piracy either - so why bother installing locks? Why bother installing alarm systems in cars? They can also be bypassed. Those "SecuRom" features can be bypassed by someone who has the knowledge to do so... so why bother?
SecuROM is nothing more than a preventative measure against the average consumer who doesn't know how to bypass DRM - to prevent the average consumer who wants to share his shiny new game with eleventybillion [bit-torrent] other average consumers.
And it fails miserably at that. Anyone who knows about torrents will just as easily find cracks that strip out Securom from the exe.
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If SecuROM's actual purpose is to prevent piracy show me an example of that? It doesn't matter that the average consumer can't copy it and put it up on bittorrent because it's already on bittorrent..
The proof to back up my statement is the fact that SecuROM does nothing to prevent piracy, as can easily be seen if you check out bittorent download stats for any of the games using it. So IMO publishers have another motive for using it. First of all, stop casual disc swapping and force more sales of new copies. Most casual gamers won't understand why they can't install their friends game and will most likely end up buying the game after that if they really want to play it.
Second, to severely disable the used market. Notice how I didn't say stop it completely. Most people owning these SR "protected" games either won't understand the install limits, thus hassling the buyer when they run into problems, or they will understand it and not want to go through the hassle of revoking installs, etc.. Also, i'd never buy a used copy of a limited install game since there's a chance it would already be out of installs.
Either way it puts a hamper on the used market once people figure out what's going on. Plus, EA's games don't have a revoke system yet, even though it already exists and is being used by other publishers. They told us it was coming.. :roll:
myocardia
Diamond Member
- Jun 21, 2003
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You don't seem to have realized it yet, but antitheft devices for games are protecting you, just not in the same way as the key for your car. Do you have any idea how many games have been released in the past two years with no antitheft measures? Two that I know about. Are you sure you'd be happy with spending ~$1,000/year keeping your gaming computer up to date, when someone is only releasing a game every 18 months or so, and you may very well not even like that game? If it weren't for these various antitheft measures, almost every game publisher would have already given up completely on the PC, and would be releasing only console games, I'm willing to bet.
Actually, I would argue that hampering the used PC games market is nothing more than an added bonus for the publishers. I would argue that it's there for the much more prevalent threat of Little Johnny being able to install all of his latest games on every one of his friend's computers. For years, every college dorm only had one physical copy of any game, that was installed on 80 or 90% of the computers in that dorm. Then you add the high school kids loaning them out to their friends, and it's already a lose-lose situation for the publishers.
I'm not sure who told you that changing your video card equals major hardware change, but it's far from it. I've got Crysis installed on one of my computers. It has been installed for about 11 months now, and I've had at least 5 or 6 different video cards installed in it since the Crysis installation, and not once has either Crysis nor SecuRom complained. And yes, I used Crysis with each of them. I was actually using that system to do Crysis video benchmarks.
Hey, I actually wish that every kid and college student who had ever wanted to play a PC game was honest enough to buy it, so there wouldn't even need to be such a thing as antitheft measures for software and PC games. I never said that I like SecuRom, because I don't. What I said is that it's 1,000 times better than internet activation, and definitely shouldn't be grouped into the same class as CD keys and SecuRom. BTW, how could anyone actually be against CD keys?
No, this is the first I've heard of that. BTW, what exactly do you mean "new SecuRom version"? Do you mean the ones that can be deactivated, or something different?
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Yeah I can see that. But it's at the cost of inconveniencing legit customers, which is what I have a problem with.
I agree it's not, but to SecuROM it is. See below.
The new iteration of SecuROM uses internet activation and has limited installs. The reason you didn't experience problems with Crysis is because that game was released with a less invasive form of SecuROM. Crysis WarHead is the one with the newer version.
Here's what the new version does and why i'm against it.
1. It requires you to activate online before you can play the game.
2. It has a limited number of installs, set by the publisher. You use up one each time you install the game or make a "major" hardware change. Things like replacing the graphics card, CPU, harddrive, motherboard, etc..
3. It installs a rootkit like app on your comp which keeps track of hardware changes.
Below is a good description of SecuROM and what it does. For info on the new version scroll to the bottom of the page. There's a link there about the new version used on Spore, Mass Effect, etc.
http://reclaimyourgame.com/ind...rticle&id=52&Itemid=13
Originally posted by: coloumb
Originally posted by: quadomatic
I think that if publishers moved to digital distribution platforms like Steam, they would be much better off. Steam is a great alternative to crappy DRM. Hell, it's been working for Valve just fine.
Now that I have paypal, I check Steam first before I buy a game.
Even better, I think everyone needs to realize the days you can sell boxed data on optical discs is over. The gaming, film and music industries all need to change to cheap or ad-supported subscription services, or something crazy that no one has even thought of.
Honestly, I can kind of relate this to TV. Who would pay for individual episodes of a show when they can see it all on TV for free?...wait...people do that.
lol... I can remember when people would give me the strangest look when I said "My dad pays for Satellite TV" service [this is back when you had to buy the HUGE dish]. Now look where we are at - people will give you weird looks if you don't have cable or direct-tv service.
I wouldn't mind buying games from steam - but there are 2 reasons why I currently do not for the most part - I can't resell the game and they cost the same as the store bought versions. About the only time that I do is when they have a special deal on a combo pack or the game price is reduced.
I really can't understand why companies such as GameFly won't offer PC games as part of their rental service considering how reportedly easy [or easier] it is to pirate games on the xbox360, ps3, gba, etc. I'm aware there are PC game subscription services - but those services provide access to the older library of games. How about a service that includes the latest games? I would gladly pay [and can afford] the cheap bastard rate [$16.00 for 1 game checked out at gamefly]...
I suspect it has to do with PC games' EULA's. I don't know if GameFly negotiates with every game publisher who's games they carry.
- Jan 9, 2008
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For those of you who still don't believe publishers like EA are actively trying to kill off the used PC game market, here it is straight from the horses mouth so to speak.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/a...e-a-critical-situation
Edit: Here's an article on Ars about EA skirting around the first-sale doctrine
http://arstechnica.com/news.ar...n-resale-of-spore.html
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/a...e-a-critical-situation
Edit: Here's an article on Ars about EA skirting around the first-sale doctrine
http://arstechnica.com/news.ar...n-resale-of-spore.html
myocardia
Diamond Member
- Jun 21, 2003
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Honestly, I have a problem with it, also. I'm no fan of DRM, to say the least. It's just that I'd much rather have these new games, some of which I really like, like Crysis & Stalker, which I forgot to mention in my last post, than to have almost no new games for the PC. I stopped liking consoles when the Atari 2600 was still the top selling console.
Okay, what you're describing here isn't SecuRom, and shouldn't really be called SecuRom, in my opinion. That's more like SecuRom on crack, with a huge dose of paranoia thrown in. Maybe call it "the new SecuRom"? I'm as much against that type of BS as you are.
Have you considered making an informative type of thread about SecuRom, and this new form of it? One for only new information about which games have what type of DRM, which companies are "refunding" installs, and the like? I'd be very interested in a thread like that, as I'm sure most readers of the PC gaming forum (whether registered or not) would be. The reason I ask is because you seem to be the most knowledgeable person around here re: SecuRom, and also seem to have the right type of temperament for it.
They aren't discussing PC gaming at all in that article. They're discussing "retail", meaning GameStop mostly, who doesn't sell used PC games, as far as I know. BTW, EA makes Micro$soft look as harmless as the Red Cross, in my mind. I'll be extremely happy to see them file for Chapter 7, and the sooner, the better.
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That's a really good idea man. There is actually a list already out there, but it only lists SecuROM games. http://www.reclaimyourgame.com...rticle&id=45&Itemid=11
For example, Stalker Clear Sky uses TAGES for protection, but the version of TAGES they are using is a limited install, activation based one. So very similar to the new SecuROM version.
Putting together a thread of new games and what type of protection they are using plus descriptions of those protection schemes could be very useful. Especially since new info can be added to by replying to the thread. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else would use something like that. If you think it's a good idea reply to this thread I guess, and if enough people are interested i'll put something together.
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Well, I posted that because it does mention they are trying multiple new business models to battle the second-hand "problem". To me that points to PC games and SecuROM, but it is just a guess on my part. Although, I doubt they'd ever actually come out and say anything about it even it it was part of their plan.
myocardia
Diamond Member
- Jun 21, 2003
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It just seemed like a good idea to me, since our discussion got derailed, because the two of us were talking about two different revisions of SecuRom. And if people who actually know something about it can get confused by the name, imagine the people who know nothing.
Oh, knowing EA, they have future plans to require a DNA sample before selling PC games. Nothing they do or say surprises me in the least. I wasn't implying you were wrong about their intentions, only pointing out that in that interview, it wasn't possible for the guy to be referring to PC games.
I'd like to see something like that. I didn't know there were different versions of Securom either. I just know that the version I had broke my game for a week while I screwed around with their tech support.
DRM increases piracy. Pirates used to get games for free, now they get free games that are actually better than the ones paid for.
"How do we combat piracy?"
"By making the authentic version better? Special online offers etc."
"No, let's make it worse. The genuine copy of the game should be worse. You should pay for the game and get less."
Pure genius.
"How do we combat piracy?"
"By making the authentic version better? Special online offers etc."
"No, let's make it worse. The genuine copy of the game should be worse. You should pay for the game and get less."
Pure genius.
coloumb
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
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VIDEOGAMES...not PC games. There is a difference.
Walk into your local game store and what do you find? TONS of used VIDEO GAMES on the shelf with a few select PC GAMES discounted. [EB Games use to sell used PC games..not sure if they do anymore]So what if they want to ensure 1 copy per person - STEAM currently uses that method and you don't see anyone bitching and complaining about that - now do you?
Ask yourself this - if you were in business to make money - would you [a] sell a game without any copy protection so 1 user could let eleventybillion other people play the same game or try to implement a system where 1 copy can only be used by 1 person at any given time [STEAM].
I'd choose B.
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Originally posted by: coloumb
VIDEOGAMES...not PC games. There is a difference.
PC games are video games.
Originally posted by: coloumb
So what if they want to ensure 1 copy per person - STEAM currently uses that method and you don't see anyone bitching and complaining about that - now do you?
Ask yourself this - if you were in business to make money - would you [a] sell a game without any copy protection so 1 user could let eleventybillion other people play the same game or try to implement a system where 1 copy can only be used by 1 person at any given time [STEAM].
I'd choose B.
eleventybillion people are going to be able to pirate the game no matter which method is used out of those two. Check any torrent site out there. I guarantee the source of the pirated games files listed don't come from an "average" user who bought the game and thought it would be cool to share it on bittorrent, whether the game is copy protected or not. They come from a pirate group so chances are it's already on torrents by the time they buy the game. So why would they even bother?
Piracy seems to be a much bigger problem since Bit Torrent came on the scene (along with faster broadband proliferation, especially in Europe/Asia).
Back in the "day" when piracy involved FTP sites or IRC XDCC bots (or even BBSes), only those with significant time and a desire to pirate would do so. Casual users would not understand how the system worked and would be dissauded.
Since now a day you can find a torrent in about 3 seconds on various search engines and 'click and forget' it is just too easy for casual users to pirate.
Of course, there is little the IP owners can do in terms of stopping the problem at this point, persuing trackers doesn't seem to do much good unless all nations in the world pass laws allowing easy prosecution of tracker operators.
Back in the "day" when piracy involved FTP sites or IRC XDCC bots (or even BBSes), only those with significant time and a desire to pirate would do so. Casual users would not understand how the system worked and would be dissauded.
Since now a day you can find a torrent in about 3 seconds on various search engines and 'click and forget' it is just too easy for casual users to pirate.
Of course, there is little the IP owners can do in terms of stopping the problem at this point, persuing trackers doesn't seem to do much good unless all nations in the world pass laws allowing easy prosecution of tracker operators.
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