Piracy: The Urgent Imperative

[mindcycle]

Meanwhile, the PCGA hopes to attract game companies to its efforts -- and while potential committee members acknowledge the importance of platform stability, says Stude, "there's a far more urgent imperative they want to see discussion and debate going on around, which is piracy."

So the PCGA has formed an anti-piracy and DRM subcommittee which is just kicking off its efforts, starting with an endeavor to try and quantify the size of the piracy issue.

"At some point next year, we expect to be able to quantify the potential impact of piracy on the industry," says Stude.

Being able to provide hard data on the impact of piracy on the industry is the first step in anti-piracy initiatives, he says.

"Assuming that every person that pirates a PC game is a lost customer is not a fair assessment? but at the same time, like music and movies, individual piracy has an impact to the bottom line -- and if there isn?t something that?s done we risk an entire medium being fundamentally changed."

How do you quantify the impact of piracy? I'd be interested to see what they come up with here. I guess he does say the "potential" impact of piracy, but still..

One possible solution? "Let's monetize every one of those pirates, and let's advertise the hell out of them." Making it "blatant" to pirates by serving, for example, six times the number of in-game ads on unauthenticated game versions would be a piracy deterrent that also provides revenues to the developer, Stude suggests.

"Don't throw [pirates] off [of the server], but show an ad every time a new level loads. The [paying customer] gets a billboard, a passive, less-aggressive ad than [pirates] are going to get."

This makes little to no sense to me. Pirate groups are just going to crack the retail version so it doesn't need to be authenticated. Why anyone thinks this whole authentication mess is a good idea astounds me. I guess he's talking about joe schmoe who lends the game to his friend bob, so bob still gets to play the game but has to deal with more ads.. maybe.

I cut out a lot of the article as it's rather long, so here's a link if you'd like to read the whole thing.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-b..._index.php?story=20668

 

[coloumb]

The huge difference between consoles and PC's - the DRM is built into the console whereas a PC has no DRM built in. It's more difficult and time consuming [plus you are probably voiding your console warranty] to play a hacked game on a console. Implement a hardware based DRM system on the PC and you should see piracy decrease. Alas - Intel tried something similar with their Pentium chips [mainly to increase security] - but that caused such an outcry from privacy advocates that it was scrapped. I would think PC enthusiasts would be completely against any hardware based DRM schema because this goes against what the PC stands for - complete freedom to do what YOU want rather than what "Big Brother" wants.

The article looks like it's geared towards on-line gaming rather than single player gaming which the PC is popular for - it's almost a requirement that a console game be on-line capable these days.

I wouldn't be surprised if the future of PC gaming [multiplayer] is a "free 2 play" system. You can play the game for free, but if you want upgrades or no advertisements, then you'll have to pay for those luxuries.

It would also be too easy for hackers to crack the code for "pirate servers" so the ads weren't displayed.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: coloumb
The huge difference between consoles and PC's - the DRM is built into the console whereas a PC has no DRM built in. It's more difficult and time consuming [plus you are probably voiding your console warranty] to play a hacked game on a console. Implement a hardware based DRM system on the PC and you should see piracy decrease. Alas - Intel tried something similar with their Pentium chips [mainly to increase security] - but that caused such an outcry from privacy advocates that it was scrapped. I would think PC enthusiasts would be completely against any hardware based DRM schema because this goes against what the PC stands for - complete freedom to do what YOU want rather than what "Big Brother" wants.

The article looks like it's geared towards on-line gaming rather than single player gaming which the PC is popular for - it's almost a requirement that a console game be on-line capable these days.

I wouldn't be surprised if the future of PC gaming [multiplayer] is a "free 2 play" system. You can play the game for free, but if you want upgrades or no advertisements, then you'll have to pay for those luxuries.

It would also be too easy for hackers to crack the code for "pirate servers" so the ads weren't displayed.

It's too easy for hackers to crack any form of DRM that has ever been released, and I doubt that will change anytime soon.

 

[manowar821]

Heh, hardware limitations don't even stop piracy... Do you know how easy it is to pirate a console game? Takes a half hour of research, tops.

 

[Modelworks]

Well there are dongles.
They can be cracked, but not normally for weeks if not months.
Personally I think they should do what 99% of the professional software I use has done.
Use a license server , located on the pc .
Look at things like Flex.

For those that haven't used it the way it works is you install the software, give the developer the serial and your MAC id, they give you key file that contains your license.
If you uninstall the software the license is uninstalled and marked as such so you can reinstall later or use the license on another pc.
You buy a license for the software, not any cd protections.

Can it be beat, sure .
But it allows them to put some copy protection and not interfere with your right to make backups or reinstall as much as you want.

If you need to install it on a pc with a different ethernet MAC then you send them the old key file and they issue you a new one.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: coloumb
The huge difference between consoles and PC's - the DRM is built into the console whereas a PC has no DRM built in. It's more difficult and time consuming [plus you are probably voiding your console warranty] to play a hacked game on a console. Implement a hardware based DRM system on the PC and you should see piracy decrease. Alas - Intel tried something similar with their Pentium chips [mainly to increase security] - but that caused such an outcry from privacy advocates that it was scrapped. I would think PC enthusiasts would be completely against any hardware based DRM schema because this goes against what the PC stands for - complete freedom to do what YOU want rather than what "Big Brother" wants.

The article looks like it's geared towards on-line gaming rather than single player gaming which the PC is popular for - it's almost a requirement that a console game be on-line capable these days.

I wouldn't be surprised if the future of PC gaming [multiplayer] is a "free 2 play" system. You can play the game for free, but if you want upgrades or no advertisements, then you'll have to pay for those luxuries.

It would also be too easy for hackers to crack the code for "pirate servers" so the ads weren't displayed.

what was that story about the 360 ed of fallout 3 already being out for d/l.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Well there are dongles.
They can be cracked, but not normally for weeks if not months.
Personally I think they should do what 99% of the professional software I use has done.
Use a license server , located on the pc .
Look at things like Flex.

For those that haven't used it the way it works is you install the software, give the developer the serial and your MAC id, they give you key file that contains your license.
If you uninstall the software the license is uninstalled and marked as such so you can reinstall later or use the license on another pc.
You buy a license for the software, not any cd protections.

Can it be beat, sure .
But it allows them to put some copy protection and not interfere with your right to make backups or reinstall as much as you want.

If you need to install it on a pc with a different ethernet MAC then you send them the old key file and they issue you a new one.

thats just it..im not willing to go to all that trouble to play their games, i will play another company's games that doesn't make me go through all that trouble..i want to sit
down and have some quick fun, not have to contact the company just to play the damn game

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: coloumb
The huge difference between consoles and PC's - the DRM is built into the console whereas a PC has no DRM built in. It's more difficult and time consuming [plus you are probably voiding your console warranty] to play a hacked game on a console. Implement a hardware based DRM system on the PC and you should see piracy decrease. Alas - Intel tried something similar with their Pentium chips [mainly to increase security] - but that caused such an outcry from privacy advocates that it was scrapped. I would think PC enthusiasts would be completely against any hardware based DRM schema because this goes against what the PC stands for - complete freedom to do what YOU want rather than what "Big Brother" wants.

The article looks like it's geared towards on-line gaming rather than single player gaming which the PC is popular for - it's almost a requirement that a console game be on-line capable these days.

I wouldn't be surprised if the future of PC gaming [multiplayer] is a "free 2 play" system. You can play the game for free, but if you want upgrades or no advertisements, then you'll have to pay for those luxuries.

It would also be too easy for hackers to crack the code for "pirate servers" so the ads weren't displayed.

what was that story about the 360 ed of fallout 3 already being out for d/l.

Don't forget Fable 2 and Gears of War 2.

Although they caught the guy who did it. Freaking moron stole 97 copies total. Text

I :laugh:'d at $6000 worth of games and blank DVDs magically becoming worth $100,000. I mean, shit, if just stealing something makes the value increase that much I need to become a thief. On top of that, I'll be he loses every possession he owns, thanks to the newly signed copyright laws.

Bottom line: DRM will never hinder pirates, only those who purchase the software. Period. They can do all the studies and come up with all the fancy new ideas they want, but it'll never work.

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
thats just it..im not willing to go to all that trouble to play their games, i will play another company's games that doesn't make me go through all that trouble..i want to sit
down and have some quick fun, not have to contact the company just to play the damn game

The point is, you activate once and there is no further intrusion until you want/need to move the game onto a different system. Then you have to contact them for a new key, activate once on the new system and away you go.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: Denithor

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
thats just it..im not willing to go to all that trouble to play their games, i will play another company's games that doesn't make me go through all that trouble..i want to sit
down and have some quick fun, not have to contact the company just to play the damn game

The point is, you activate once and there is no further intrusion until you want/need to move the game onto a different system. Then you have to contact them for a new key, activate once on the new system and away you go.

Why do that when you can just crack it once and never have to activate it?

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Well there are dongles.
They can be cracked, but not normally for weeks if not months.
Personally I think they should do what 99% of the professional software I use has done.
Use a license server , located on the pc .
Look at things like Flex.

For those that haven't used it the way it works is you install the software, give the developer the serial and your MAC id, they give you key file that contains your license.
If you uninstall the software the license is uninstalled and marked as such so you can reinstall later or use the license on another pc.
You buy a license for the software, not any cd protections.

Can it be beat, sure .
But it allows them to put some copy protection and not interfere with your right to make backups or reinstall as much as you want.

If you need to install it on a pc with a different ethernet MAC then you send them the old key file and they issue you a new one.

thats just it..im not willing to go to all that trouble to play their games, i will play another company's games that doesn't make me go through all that trouble..i want to sit
down and have some quick fun, not have to contact the company just to play the damn game

Yes exactly. These publishers need to realize that getting more sales could very much be obtained if they give their paying customers greater incentive to buy games in the first place. Like using your serial number to get extra content, be a part of a community message board, access multiplayer features, etc..

What doesn't offer extra incentive is making it a PITA just to play a game. That's why consoles are doing so well IMO. You just stick the game in the drive and play. The PC gaming industry needs to learn from that model, not put up extra roadblocks to "stop" piracy, which is never going to happen anyway.

I can see having a dongle type device work well for professional software, since a lot of times you're investing a good chunk of money into those apps, but to do something like that for a $40 or $50 game doesn't really make sense.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Well there are dongles.
They can be cracked, but not normally for weeks if not months.
Personally I think they should do what 99% of the professional software I use has done.
Use a license server , located on the pc .
Look at things like Flex.

For those that haven't used it the way it works is you install the software, give the developer the serial and your MAC id, they give you key file that contains your license.
If you uninstall the software the license is uninstalled and marked as such so you can reinstall later or use the license on another pc.
You buy a license for the software, not any cd protections.

Can it be beat, sure .
But it allows them to put some copy protection and not interfere with your right to make backups or reinstall as much as you want.

If you need to install it on a pc with a different ethernet MAC then you send them the old key file and they issue you a new one.

thats just it..im not willing to go to all that trouble to play their games, i will play another company's games that doesn't make me go through all that trouble..i want to sit
down and have some quick fun, not have to contact the company just to play the damn game

Yes exactly. These publishers need to realize that getting more sales could very much be obtained if they give their paying customers greater incentive to buy games in the first place. Like using your serial number to get extra content, be a part of a community message board, access multiplayer features, etc..

What doesn't offer extra incentive is making it a PITA just to play a game. That's why consoles are doing so well IMO. You just stick the game in the drive and play. The PC gaming industry needs to learn from that model, not put up extra roadblocks to "stop" piracy, which is never going to happen anyway.

I can see having a dongle type device work well for professional software, since a lot of times you're investing a good chunk of money into those apps, but to do something like that for a $40 or $50 game doesn't really make sense.

:thumbsup: to having to reg your key to access the forums / get updates. I like it even more because I'm great at losing cases / manuals, so I can just log into the forums and get my keys. I've done that twice for NWN2 now.

 

[ultimahwhat]

Originally posted by: Canai
Although they caught the guy who did it. Freaking moron stole 97 copies total. Text

This is how we roll in the Dirty South

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Denithor

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
thats just it..im not willing to go to all that trouble to play their games, i will play another company's games that doesn't make me go through all that trouble..i want to sit
down and have some quick fun, not have to contact the company just to play the damn game

The point is, you activate once and there is no further intrusion until you want/need to move the game onto a different system. Then you have to contact them for a new key, activate once on the new system and away you go.

That's what the SecuROM model is attempting to do. It's not a viable solution IMO. When you boil it down it just means extra work for the end user. The typical gamer doesn't want to go through all that hassle just to play a game. Look at console sales vs PC as a good indication of that.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: Denithor

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
thats just it..im not willing to go to all that trouble to play their games, i will play another company's games that doesn't make me go through all that trouble..i want to sit
down and have some quick fun, not have to contact the company just to play the damn game

The point is, you activate once and there is no further intrusion until you want/need to move the game onto a different system. Then you have to contact them for a new key, activate once on the new system and away you go.

That's what the SecuROM model is attempting to do. It's not a viable solution IMO. When you boil it down it just means extra work for the end user. The typical gamer doesn't want to go through all that hassle just to play a game. Look at console sales vs PC as a good indication of that.

The problem is it is not going away.
It doesn't matter how loudly people stomp their feet or yell on forums they are not going to do away with copy protection. The greatest loss of sales to any title is during the first 72 hours of release. Whatever method they use will need to make them think that it gives them that amount of time before the software is cracked.

SecuRom and FlexLM are totally different in both the way they work and the way they are implemented. SecuRom is based on heavy encryption and altering how the actual game works on the system. FlexLM is based on a key file stored on the pc that anyone can make copies of if they like. There is nothing intrusive or a hassle about it. You install the software, enter your serial , it goes online, retrieves the key, and you never have to go online again unless you want to move it to another pc.

And even that has been fixed in the latest FlexLM. Once you have the key file you can move the software to any pc without ever going online again. When you uninstall the software it modifies the key file to tell it you uninstalled. Then you copy the key to another pc and install the software there and it uses that same key file. The key files are only about 1KB in size so easy to move around.

 

[nitromullet]

The problem is it is not going away.
It doesn't matter how loudly people stomp their feet or yell on forums they are not going to do away with copy protection. The greatest loss of sales to any title is during the first 72 hours of release. Whatever method they use will need to make them think that it gives them that amount of time before the software is cracked.

I think you're right. The problem isn't going to go away. However, how does SecuROM with limited activations help prevent piracy any more in the first 72 hours than say SecuROM without activation limitations? Actually, how does activation limits on legitimate copies actually combat piracy at all?

Originally posted by: Canai
:thumbsup: to having to reg your key to access the forums / get updates. I like it even more because I'm great at losing cases / manuals, so I can just log into the forums and get my keys. I've done that twice for NWN2 now.

I assume that you realize that NWN2 is a SecuROM activation limited game...?

Anyway, I agree with your point though. I think publishers and developers should be looking for way to encourage people to buy games via incentives, as opposed to treating their legit customers like thieves. Either that, or they could adopt a subscription based model where basically you 'rent' the game for as long as you want to play it. Sort of like Netflix/Gamefly, but with digital distribution instead of sending disks through the mail. For online games, they could host 'official' servers with high availability, strict no-cheat standards, and skill level matching for a monthly fee.

I think they need to get away from trying to keep you from stealing the disk (or its contents), and start branching out into alternate revenue streams. Currently, the most successful game out is WoW, and it doesn't have a shred of copy protection on its disks. Sure, one could argue that it is an MMO, but the thing that keeps people paying Blizzard money is because of the ongoing development and new content available to you as a subscriber. Essentially, the game is compelling enough to make people keep paying for and playing WoW. I can say for myself that I've paid Blizzard WAY more over the almost 3 yrs I've been playing WoW than I have for any other game and I don't feel cheated one bit. I do, however, feel cheated by EA/Crytek for selling me Crysis Warhead with a 5 activation limit.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

The problem is it is not going away.
It doesn't matter how loudly people stomp their feet or yell on forums they are not going to do away with copy protection. The greatest loss of sales to any title is during the first 72 hours of release. Whatever method they use will need to make them think that it gives them that amount of time before the software is cracked.

I think you're right. The problem isn't going to go away. However, how does SecuROM with limited activations help prevent piracy any more in the first 72 hours than say SecuROM without activation limitations? Actually, how does activation limits on legitimate copies actually combat piracy at all?

It doesn't help . All the publishers are doing is trying to find a way to make piracy harder. It does do that to some extent. Games that use the online activation method is harder to crack than before and it does slow down the release of cracked software but its not going to stop it.

What they are doing is trying to make it look good to their investors. Its all about the stock holders and making them think they are doing everything they can to improve the bottom line.

I am totally against a monthly fee of any kind.
I do think the FlexLM would work as a solution though and more and more software is using it.
Adobe just released the new photoshop, premiere, etc that use the system.
It allows both parties to get what they want.
The user gets the product they paid for without being concerned about a disc or some obtrusive software installed on the pc and the company gets to tell its investors that they are trying to combat piracy.

Will it stop piracy, no. There are systems that can stop piracy completely, but you will never see them on games.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
I think you're right. The problem isn't going to go away. However, how does SecuROM with limited activations help prevent piracy any more in the first 72 hours than say SecuROM without activation limitations? Actually, how does activation limits on legitimate copies actually combat piracy at all?

It doesn't. It combats reselling the game / passing it around among friends.

Originally posted by: Canai
:thumbsup: to having to reg your key to access the forums / get updates. I like it even more because I'm great at losing cases / manuals, so I can just log into the forums and get my keys. I've done that twice for NWN2 now.

I assume that you realize that NWN2 is a SecuROM activation limited game...?

Anyway, I agree with your point though. I think publishers and developers should be looking for way to encourage people to buy games via incentives, as opposed to treating their legit customers like thieves. Either that, or they could adopt a subscription based model where basically you 'rent' the game for as long as you want to play it. Sort of like Netflix/Gamefly, but with digital distribution instead of sending disks through the mail. For online games, they could host 'official' servers with high availability, strict no-cheat standards, and skill level matching for a monthly fee.

I think they need to get away from trying to keep you from stealing the disk (or its contents), and start branching out into alternate revenue streams. Currently, the most successful game out is WoW, and it doesn't have a shred of copy protection on its disks. Sure, one could argue that it is an MMO, but the thing that keeps people paying Blizzard money is because of the ongoing development and new content available to you as a subscriber. Essentially, the game is compelling enough to make people keep paying for and playing WoW. I can say for myself that I've paid Blizzard WAY more over the almost 3 yrs I've been playing WoW than I have for any other game and I don't feel cheated one bit. I do, however, feel cheated by EA/Crytek for selling me Crysis Warhead with a 5 activation limit.

NWN2 has SecuROM on it, but does not have an activation limit. Since dtools beat SecuROM into submission a long time ago, all I have to do is click a button and SecuROM goes to sleep. It stays installed, which I don't really like, but for games like NWN2 that are mostly single player and actually have replay value, keeping a mini image loaded in a spare virtual drive is simple and very effective. It removes any issues with SecuROM and lets me worry about something other than finding the dvd in my mess of discs :laugh:

I loved Crysis, but I will not buy Warhead until (if?) they pull that activation limit bullshit off of it. With Crysis, activation limits wouldn't really make much difference to me, since I could just crack it if it was out of activations. With a game like Warhead that actually has MP worth playing I'd be much more concerned with activation limits, since I would actually be missing out on a part of the game that I wanted to play. (I dunno if the MP is any good, I haven't played Warhead but once - but TDM with nanosuits sounds like it could be a blast)

Any games that come out with activation limits are off limits to me, especially if a good bit of the game can only be accessed after activation. I'm hard on my computer and like to keep everything held together with chewing gum and duct tape. I've been getting random shut downs recently, and having just gone through four different video cards in two months, I'd be way past the activation limits already. When I bought Bioshock, I had to reformat my comp twice, and this was before they had released the de-activation tool, so I was SOL on two of the three activations within a week of the game's launch. I like to think my complaining on the 2k forums helped them bump the activation limits up

As far as games like WoW, they offer a tilted perspective, as they are generally designed to be as addictive and time-consuming as possible, while never really letting anyone 'win'

 

[nitromullet]

NWN2 has SecuROM on it, but does not have an activation limit.

I have the Direct2Drive version, and I had to contact D2D the last time I re-installed NWN2 because I had exceeded my activation limit. They did give me another one with no hassle. Perhaps the disk version does not have activation limits.

As far as games like WoW, they offer a tilted perspective, as they are generally designed to be as addictive and time-consuming as possible, while never really letting anyone 'win'

Don't let the fact that it's an MMO sway you. My point was that if you give people something worth paying for on an ongoing basis, they will pay a monthly fee. Successful MMO's, cable TV, and Netflix have all proven that. The way that Blizzard makes WoW addictive and make people willing to spend the time is because the game is fun, which is the point after all. Of course I'm sure some would disagree, but they don't have to play either.

 

[Stas]

nitromullet
Of course I'm sure some would disagree, but they don't have to play either.
And can play just fine on private servers lol
Sorry, just remembered how a buddy of mine made $60K+ in 6 months by running a private (illegal) WoW server without EVER purchasing the game. Eventually Blizzard found out and threatened with a lawsuit. He shut it down. Now he runs a company with the money invested from that little endeavor.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

NWN2 has SecuROM on it, but does not have an activation limit.

I have the Direct2Drive version, and I had to contact D2D the last time I re-installed NWN2 because I had exceeded my activation limit. They did give me another one with no hassle. Perhaps the disk version does not have activation limits.

The D2D version was terrible for consumers, most people who bought D2D games wish they never had. At least, it seems that way from the number of complaints against it.

The disk version of NWN2 uses SecuRom but does NOT have any activation limits, neither does its expansion MotB. The upcoming expansion and adventure pack will most likely feature only a single CD key check and activation and that's it. But this is Atari, they aren't known for the brilliant business decisions anymore.

 

[jjones]

How about these publishers and developers get the money their games are worth - through advertising. Let the games be free, or nominal cost (say $10 - $20), but laden with ads. That way if the game is actually good, it generates more ad revenue by virtue of it being played more often. It's either that or Steam or some similar system, because DRM will never work.

 

[Schadenfroh]

I see the PCGA becoming the next RIAA / MPAA. Expect lawsuits against filesharers in about a year.

Let the games be free, or nominal cost (say $10 - $20), but laden with ads.

Expect $50+ games laden with ads, they want both.

I have the Direct2Drive version, and I had to contact D2D the last time I re-installed NWN2 because I had exceeded my activation limit. They did give me another one with no hassle. Perhaps the disk version does not have activation limits.

My retail edition (while infected with Sony's SecuROM) does not require activation.

Actually, how does activation limits on legitimate copies actually combat piracy at all?

It is not meant to stop pirates, it is meant to eliminate used game sales and to a lesser degree eliminate "casual" pirates, IE pirates that do not know how to properly crack that game's DRM and / or too lazy to lookup / use other methods. Companies (like always) are testing new approaches on the PC. Once they see that people are willing to accept it, they will likely put activation (via Internet or phone) on console games to eliminate used game sales.

 

[Regs]

Throw the mofo's in jail =)

 

[trance247]

This is same issue as music, maybe you will not download pirated game yourself or that new metallica album but please save BS if you are not going to borrow your friend's copy to play or to listen...f_ck paying 59.99 for a game you may not enjoy and even if you really love the game, how much of that money does developer see? Same as musician from his 15 dollar disc?