PHP designer quits over Israel's actions

[sunzt]

Link from Digg, READ THE COMMENTS

I believe that a nation has a right to defend itself, and that Israel need to be proactive in dealing with Hezbollah. However, Israel is ignoring the consequences of its current military actions. A new generation of anti-Israeli youth are being created every time a civilian dies, regardless of whether or not Hezbollah used them as shields.

The ME crisis is not just about Israel and Hezbollah or their supporters. The overarching problem of the region is not as simple as Hezbollah.... It's the general mindset of the Shia and Sunni populace who believe that Israel should not have been there in the first place and are discriminating against them. Changing this mindset cannot be done through the barrel of a gun unless you actually want to eliminate those minds from existence.

 

[sunzt]

Good discussion on slashdot as well:

Slashdot link

 

[Jaskalas]

The public relations cost of fighting Hezbollah is derived from those who side with Hezbollah over Israel. Those who truly support Israel will not waiver and vise versa. Those sitting on the sidelines, eager to support Hezbollah over the mention of a civilian being killed might as well just sign up now.

 

[Aisengard]

If the world didn't buy into the entire Arab propaganda machine, then there wouldn't be this kind of problem.

The world gives tacit approval to Arab terrorism every time they tell Israel it's all their fault.

 

[sunzt]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
... Those sitting on the sidelines, eager to support Hezbollah over the mention of a civilian being killed might as well just sign up now.

See the problem? It's not in Israel's interest nor America's to have this happen. When more and more people hate America and Israel, we will be the ones isolated.

"Wars start in the minds of men." -Jan Visser

 

[Jaskalas]

Terrorism employs the use of human shields, making the already high collateral damage of waging war even higher. The world approves of this strategy by condemning anyone who fights the terrorists.

So then sunzt, if waging war to stop them is out of the question, how would one stop their bloodthirst? Wine and roses?

 

[sunzt]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Terrorism employs the use of human shields, making the already high collateral damage of waging war even higher. The world approves of this strategy by condemning anyone who fights the terrorists.

So then sunzt, if waging war to stop them is out of the question, how would one stop their bloodthirst? Wine and roses?

In order to stop their "bloodthirst" you must win the minds of the people because this bloodthirst is not limited to Hezbollah or similar terroist groups. It is a state of mind of many civilians in the ME.

Say... Israel engages in a full scale war with Lebanon, and takes out Hezbollah. Well guess what, a democratic nation that could have set an example would be in ruins, there would be an unimaginable humanitarian crisis due to the fact that Israel seems to like bombing whole blocks of cities and infrastructure (water, electricity, commmunication). Most of the blame will be laid on Israel for pushing the war so far and the US for not stopping Israel. In the Arab world, Hezbollah will be seen as martyrs for courageously resisting the Israel invasion. The refugees from Lebanon will hate Israel and America much greater. This hate will not only stem from Lebanon, but from the Muslim and Arab communities around the world. You will have the civilian populace in the ME including Iraqis, Saudis, Jordanians, and Egyptians (all somewhat US friendly) hate Israel and the US with so much more ferver. Now guess where the next wave of anti-israel/US militants are going to be from? EVERYWHERE in the ME. So how are you going to get rid of these new terrorists? Invade their countries too? Why not just start another world war with the US and Israel one side (I doubt our other allies would help at that time, except Britain) vs a huge armies of guerilla fighters in the middle east? I'm sure we could defeat them easily, just like we did in Iraq... oh wait....

The Israelis' are waging a war without much thought in minimizing casualties. (Attacking fleeing refugees in cars and leveling whole city blocks does not minimize casualties) Hezbollah WANTS Israel to kill the human shields to get to them. Every civilian that dies is a victory for Hezbollah. When Israel kills those civilians, people who would normally hate the captors will either hate Israel or both factions with great vigor.

The violence will not stop unless you win the minds of the people.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm sure we could defeat them easily, just like we did in Iraq... oh wait....

Our defeat comes from our willingness to be defeated. Iraq has been a failure because we tried to rebuild it before we rooted out all who oppose us. We could still do it today and come out as the only authority in Iraq. We choose not to win it because it?s bad public relations to win a war.

You say it yourself; you would be one of the first to speak out against us if we actually won. Winning is to wage war upon your enemies, and in the case of Terrorism in means rooting them out from civilian populations which is bound to cause casualties.

The Israelis' are waging a war without much thought in minimizing casualties.

A bald face lie. Currently rockets still fire, the unconventional Hezbollah army is ONLY alive today because Israel cannot discern between them and civilians and IS minimizing civilian casualties. It would be vastly more effective to just carpet bomb the place, but you?re coming down on them just as badly as if they had done so!

They are using restraint, the self evidence of that is Israel?s continued losses in this war. I don?t perceive 600 over two weeks to be excessive force in a war zone where two armies are killing each other.

In order to stop their "bloodthirst" you must win the minds of the people

How is this any different than surrendering to their aggression? Surrendering to them has been proven useless time and again. Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and their reward for bending over was to have the Hezbollah army entrench in newly fortified positions (people?s homes) and then continue to wage war.

These religious zealots do not care if we are weak, they want our heads on a pike and I find disgust for the suggestion that we should give it to them.

If you imagine there is some bending over they WOULD accept and cease their aggression on us then please do continue explaining your policy. It?s just that I fail to see how you could obtain their cease fire after you convince us to surrender.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: sunzt

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Terrorism employs the use of human shields, making the already high collateral damage of waging war even higher. The world approves of this strategy by condemning anyone who fights the terrorists.

So then sunzt, if waging war to stop them is out of the question, how would one stop their bloodthirst? Wine and roses?

In order to stop their "bloodthirst" you must win the minds of the people because this bloodthirst is not limited to Hezbollah or similar terroist groups. It is a state of mind of many civilians in the ME.

Say... Israel engages in a full scale war with Lebanon, and takes out Hezbollah. Well guess what, a democratic nation that could have set an example would be in ruins, there would be an unimaginable humanitarian crisis due to the fact that Israel seems to like bombing whole blocks of cities and infrastructure (water, electricity, commmunication). Most of the blame will be laid on Israel for pushing the war so far and the US for not stopping Israel. In the Arab world, Hezbollah will be seen as martyrs for courageously resisting the Israel invasion. The refugees from Lebanon will hate Israel and America much greater. This hate will not only stem from Lebanon, but from the Muslim and Arab communities around the world. You will have the civilian populace in the ME including Iraqis, Saudis, Jordanians, and Egyptians (all somewhat US friendly) hate Israel and the US with so much more ferver. Now guess where the next wave of anti-israel/US militants are going to be from? EVERYWHERE in the ME. So how are you going to get rid of these new terrorists? Invade their countries too? Why not just start another world war with the US and Israel one side (I doubt our other allies would help at that time, except Britain) vs a huge armies of guerilla fighters in the middle east? I'm sure we could defeat them easily, just like we did in Iraq... oh wait....

The Israelis' are waging a war without much thought in minimizing casualties. (Attacking fleeing refugees in cars and leveling whole city blocks does not minimize casualties) Hezbollah WANTS Israel to kill the human shields to get to them. Every civilian that dies is a victory for Hezbollah. When Israel kills those civilians, people who would normally hate the captors will either hate Israel or both factions with great vigor.

The violence will not stop unless you win the minds of the people.

Less than 1000 deaths for the amount of missiles launched is waging a war with a strong mind on casulties, on how to minimize them.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
The public relations cost of fighting Hezbollah is derived from those who side with Hezbollah over Israel. Those who truly support Israel will not waiver and vise versa. Those sitting on the sidelines, eager to support Hezbollah over the mention of a civilian being killed might as well just sign up now.

Complete BS.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
The public relations cost of fighting Hezbollah is derived from those who side with Hezbollah over Israel. Those who truly support Israel will not waiver and vise versa. Those sitting on the sidelines, eager to support Hezbollah over the mention of a civilian being killed might as well just sign up now.

Complete BS.

Did the Allies betray their side when we nuked Japan? Fire bombed Tokyo? Carpet bombed Berlin and other cities? No, they recognized that war is war and if you don't have the will to be on our side then why should we surrender to our opponents just to have you approve of us?

 

[jrenz]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
The public relations cost of fighting Hezbollah is derived from those who side with Hezbollah over Israel. Those who truly support Israel will not waiver and vise versa. Those sitting on the sidelines, eager to support Hezbollah over the mention of a civilian being killed might as well just sign up now.

Complete BS.

Did the Allies betray their side when we nuked Japan? Fire bombed Tokyo? Carpet bombed Berlin and other cities? No, they recognized that war is war and if you don't have the will to be on our side then why should we surrender to our opponents just to have you approve of us?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
The public relations cost of fighting Hezbollah is derived from those who side with Hezbollah over Israel. Those who truly support Israel will not waiver and vise versa. Those sitting on the sidelines, eager to support Hezbollah over the mention of a civilian being killed might as well just sign up now.

Complete BS.

Did the Allies betray their side when we nuked Japan? Fire bombed Tokyo? Carpet bombed Berlin and other cities? No, they recognized that war is war and if you don't have the will to be on our side then why should we surrender to our opponents just to have you approve of us?

It took a good long while for the allies to own up to Dresden though, didn't it...

There's no reason to support Israel, unless their actions are supportable; you equate someone like me holding such a position with 'supporting terrorism', which is not true, of course.

I tend to consider your blind support for Israel to be zionism, with a healthy dose of historical ignorance.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Did the Allies betray their side when we nuked Japan? Fire bombed Tokyo? Carpet bombed Berlin and other cities? No, they recognized that war is war and if you don't have the will to be on our side then why should we surrender to our opponents just to have you approve of us?

Then why is Saddam on trial?

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
The public relations cost of fighting Hezbollah is derived from those who side with Hezbollah over Israel. Those who truly support Israel will not waiver and vise versa. Those sitting on the sidelines, eager to support Hezbollah over the mention of a civilian being killed might as well just sign up now.

Complete BS.

Did the Allies betray their side when we nuked Japan? Fire bombed Tokyo? Carpet bombed Berlin and other cities? No, they recognized that war is war and if you don't have the will to be on our side then why should we surrender to our opponents just to have you approve of us?

If the "terrorists" had nukes and blew up a large city in America to try to get the Americans to quit bombing Iraq and killing tons of innocent civilians would they be in the right like you consider up in your quote?

 

[Jaskalas]

Among their own people? Of course they would be, the Middle East would erupt in celebration as they have done with ALL terrorist attacks.

The question you need to ask yourself is if you are willing to bear the cost of stopping such things, or if we are to surrender to them and allow them to wage war against us freely.

 

[kage69]

Among their own people? Of course they would be, the Middle East would erupt in celebration as they have done with ALL terrorist attacks.

Guess you missed the candle-light vigils they held in Iran after the towers fell. Yep, you prolly saw Palestinian kids cheering and throwing candy after 9/11 and figured that was the case for the entire region.

You nailed it sandorski. :roll:

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Among their own people? Of course they would be, the Middle East would erupt in celebration as they have done with ALL terrorist attacks.

The question you need to ask yourself is if you are willing to bear the cost of stopping such things, or if we are to surrender to them and allow them to wage war against us freely.

In our "so-called" war in Iraq.. how many innocents have we killed/collateral damaged/murdered?

We know what their religion is like and what their culture is like and it sure feels like their religion and culture have been attacked.. SO.. like I said... If they found a way to BOMB THE FVCK OUT OF US LIKE WE DID TO JAPAN AND GERMANY... would they be justified just like you justify our actions in Dresden and Hiro-Naga .. etc..

Why should they stand by and let us keep killing and bombing them?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Among their own people? Of course they would be, the Middle East would erupt in celebration as they have done with ALL terrorist attacks.

The question you need to ask yourself is if you are willing to bear the cost of stopping such things, or if we are to surrender to them and allow them to wage war against us freely.

In our "so-called" war in Iraq.. how many innocents have we killed/collateral damaged/murdered?

We know what their religion is like and what their culture is like and it sure feels like their religion and culture have been attacked.. SO.. like I said... If they found a way to BOMB THE FVCK OUT OF US LIKE WE DID TO JAPAN AND GERMANY... would they be justified just like you justify our actions in Dresden and Hiro-Naga .. etc..

Why should they stand by and let us keep killing and bombing them?

Why must you argue for their right to wage war on us, while arguing against our right to do the same? I merely argue we should not surrender and that we should win, does this surprise you and go against your beliefs?

There's no need for it, this is war, and both sides should do what they must for their own. The difference is they are doing all in their power to win, and we are not. We have complete victory over any conventional army they use. It is a clear advantage that we choose not to use against them.

Being able to "occupy" any piece of land we wish, we choose to give them safe haven by not doing everything we possibly can to root them out from their civilian populations. Yes, the longer the war goes on the more people are going to die. This is the entire reason why we should not surrender today only to be attacked by them tomorrow. The longer we draw this out, the more time civilians will be caught in the middle of this.

If you truly want the civilian casualties to end, I think you should support the effort to defeat the terrorists and for us to do everything in our power to achieve that goal. We can surrender until the cows come home, I do not believe it will not end the war.

 

[dahunan]

I can agree that terrorists who actually attack should be held responsible immediately

Regarding Israel there has been a conspiracy in the UN to allow these terrorists to continue to wage their war while being backed by the governments.. some of it has to do with the disproportionate responses.. and the lasck of true overwhelming support for peace from the whole world.. too many people are bloodthirsty *myself included* If a member of the Israeli Military killed my family and it was labeled "collateral damage" then I would very very likely exact my own revenge

Who were the terrorists in Iraq that attacked us? We had no right to be in there killing innocents...

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
If the world didn't buy into the entire Arab propaganda machine, then there wouldn't be this kind of problem.

The world gives tacit approval to Arab terrorism every time they tell Israel it's all their fault.

some people can understand cause and effect.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
The public relations cost of fighting Hezbollah is derived from those who side with Hezbollah over Israel. Those who truly support Israel will not waiver and vise versa. Those sitting on the sidelines, eager to support Hezbollah over the mention of a civilian being killed might as well just sign up now.

Complete BS.

Did the Allies betray their side when we nuked Japan? Fire bombed Tokyo? Carpet bombed Berlin and other cities? No, they recognized that war is war and if you don't have the will to be on our side then why should we surrender to our opponents just to have you approve of us?

Do you consider yourself to be a moral person?