Phenom II X6 vs AMD quads

[jackace]

This just became academic because Black Friday just got me with this deal: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboD...t=Combo.552987
Bought 4Gigs of ram for it and it cost $320. The sudden drop on the cpu plus the combo discount was simply to good to pass up.

Great deal but it's sold out. Anyone seen a similar deal anywhere else?

 

[perdomot]

This aint too bad:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboD...t=Combo.543354

 

[BoomerD]

I've been researching and crunching numbers for several days on this. No matter whether I go Intel i5 or AMD x4 970, I'm still at about $900 by the time I buy processor and CPU cooler, motherboard, RAM, video card, and a new decent case.

Phenom II x4 970 $189.99
ASUS M4A89GTD Pro motherboard $124.99

OR

Intel i5-750 processor $199.99
ASUS PTP55D-Deluxe motherboard $159.99

2-4 Gb Ram modules from Crucial ~$125. (Is Crucial still good? I've used their memory in every build since the mid-90's, although I've also had good luck with Mushkin)


Corsair Graphite 600T case $159.99

Corsair H50 Hydro Series cooler $76.
(could go cheaper...depends)

I'll use my "old" Seagate 250 GB SATA HDD
Samsung IDE DVD drive (for now)
I absolutely hate my Perspire...I mean Aspire X-Alien case...live & learn. I wanted a case with lots of cooling...and I got that, but it still looks like crap.

 

[busydude]

2-4 Gb Ram modules from Crucial ~$125. (Is Crucial still good? I've used their memory in every build since the mid-90's, although I've also had good luck with Mushkin)

I have had good luck with G.Skill and 4 GB for $50(newegg) is no brainer.

RAM is way cheaper in newegg than Amazon($85).

 

[perdomot]

I've been researching and crunching numbers for several days on this. No matter whether I go Intel i5 or AMD x4 970, I'm still at about $900 by the time I buy processor and CPU cooler, motherboard, RAM, video card, and a new decent case.

Phenom II x4 970 $189.99
ASUS M4A89GTD Pro motherboard $124.99

OR

Intel i5-750 processor $199.99
ASUS PTP55D-Deluxe motherboard $159.99

2-4 Gb Ram modules from Crucial ~$125. (Is Crucial still good? I've used their memory in every build since the mid-90's, although I've also had good luck with Mushkin)


Corsair Graphite 600T case $159.99

Corsair H50 Hydro Series cooler $76.
(could go cheaper...depends)

I'll use my "old" Seagate 250 GB SATA HDD
Samsung IDE DVD drive (for now)
I absolutely hate my Perspire...I mean Aspire X-Alien case...live & learn. I wanted a case with lots of cooling...and I got that, but it still looks like crap.

Your examples are for a premium level system not a budget build. An Athlon II quad, 880G mobo and 4GB of ram in a Rosewill case will have plenty of power and not cost much at all. There are plenty of good air cpu coolers for under $30 too if you are going to OC.

 

[BoomerD]

I have had good luck with G.Skill and 4 GB for $50(newegg) is no brainer.

RAM is way cheaper in newegg than Amazon($85).

Most things are cheaper at Newegg than Amazon...BUT, I'm using Amazon gift card for the parts...and I don't think Newegg will accept those as payment.
(maybe I should ask.) :biggrin:

Your examples are for a premium level system not a budget build. An Athlon II quad, 880G mobo and 4GB of ram in a Rosewill case will have plenty of power and not cost much at all. There are plenty of good air cpu coolers for under $30 too if you are going to OC.

All that's true, but none of that is enough of an upgrade over what I currently have to justify the work or cost...and Rosewill? No thanks.

Value is one thing...cheap is something completely different.

I figure those parts make a good medium-price/performance system that should last me another 4-5 years.

 

[busydude]

Most things are cheaper at Newegg than Amazon...BUT, I'm using Amazon gift card for the parts...and I don't think Newegg will accept those as payment. (maybe I should ask.)

LoL.. its worth a try, DDR3 has been really expensive since long and prices have dropped recently.

 

[jackace]

This aint too bad:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboD...t=Combo.543354

That is not a bad deal either.

 

[busydude]

Phenom II x4 970 $189.99 ASUS M4A89GTD Pro motherboard $124.99

If you want to go the AMD route, I suggest going for the 1055T which is $10 less and much better value.. and it oc's pretty well too, so you not going to lose much in terms of clock speed.

 

[perdomot]

All that's true, but none of that is enough of an upgrade over what I currently have to justify the work or cost...and Rosewill? No thanks.

Value is one thing...cheap is something completely different.

What is your current setup so we can judge what to advise? There is only a 5% difference between PHII and ATHII cpus which doesn't justify the big price difference. There are plenty of sub $100 880G mobos on amazon and good ram like this: http://www.amazon.com/4GB-1333MHz-DD...958574&sr=1-12
As for Rosewill, their cases are quite good and solid and I used one for a long while without any issues.

 

[BoomerD]

What is your current setup so we can judge what to advise? There is only a 5% difference between PHII and ATHII cpus which doesn't justify the big price difference. There are plenty of sub $100 880G mobos on amazon and good ram like this: http://www.amazon.com/4GB-1333MHz-DD...958574&sr=1-12
As for Rosewill, their cases are quite good and solid and I used one for a long while without any issues.

<sigh>:$:$

P4 Northwood 3.06 (with Hyper-Threading!!)
Asus P4P800E Deluxe

Housed in an old POS Aspire case. (w/o their Perspire PSU...I upgraded to a Corsair HX620 a few years back)

This was originally built in 2003 with a 2.8 Gb P4 and ECS mobo. Upgraded the processor in 2004, but in 2006, my video card (PNY 6800GT) crashed, so I replaced it...only to find that the motherboard's AGP slot was dead. (not sure which one killed the other, but I suspect the mobo) So, since I had already bought the video card, I replaced the motherboard so that I could keep the rest of my existing hardware...

I'm long past wanting to upgrade. I like gaming on the PC, but most of the newer games have minimum requirements higher than what I have available...

I considered one of the Intel Core 2 processors, but want something better than LGA775. No sense upgrading with "dead" technology again.

While I can't afford to buy the "newest, latest, and fastest," I would like to hit somewhere in the middle...with new technology...which is why I'm looking at the Phenom II and Intel i5.

 

[perdomot]

Based on what you've said, I would go with a 2 step plan:
Step 1-Get this combo with your own cash. It has everything you need for the foundation of your new rig. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.513430

Step 2-Use your Amazon gift card to purchase the best vid card you can afford.

The combo will give you a quad cpu which is what's important as the L3 cache isn't really justifiable given the price difference plus enough memory and a good mobo. Since gaming is your focus, the vid card will be the big ticket item so use the gift card there.

 

[BoomerD]

Based on what you've said, I would go with a 2 step plan:
Step 1-Get this combo with your own cash. It has everything you need for the foundation of your new rig. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboB...t=Combo.513430

Step 2-Use your Amazon gift card to purchase the best vid card you can afford.

The combo will give you a quad cpu which is what's important as the L3 cache isn't really justifiable given the price difference plus enough memory and a good mobo. Since gaming is your focus, the vid card will be the big ticket item so use the gift card there.

No personal experience with the MSI motherboards. They're good?

(with the exception of the one ECS board, I've only used ASUS in the past)

I'm just not thrilled with the Rosewill cases...and while that combo is certainly better than I have now, I'm just not ready to settle for something that low end.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input, as I don't keep up with these things anymore, but I want something a bit better...I have plenty of Amazon gift cards to work with here...and the cash budget is tight enough right now with me not working, so buying out of pocket isn't gonna work.

 

[BladeVenom]

Check out Micro Center's prices if you have one nearby. The have great prices on the Intel processors, and great deals on the AMD CPU+Mobo combos.

If you don't have a Micro Center nearby, check Fry's sales.

 

[BoomerD]

BoomerD, if you're going to be gaming, just go the i5, it's that simple. For that price bracket (~$200) theres nothing from AMD that really competes. The PH II 970 is some 20% slower and the 1055T even more so as its clocked lower. And Athlon IIs for gaming?! No thanks, unless you are on a tight budget. They are (clock for clock, and overall) one of the slowest CPUs for gaming right now, by a fair margin...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3937/...thlon-ii-cpus-balance-price-and-performance/5

It's just not worth sacrificing ~50% in gaming performance to save $100 on an Athlon II X4. The total cost of ownership is not that different, $800 vs $900 in your case. Yes one can argue that $100 can be put towards a more powerful graphics card, say a GTX470 instead of a GTX460, for example. But that is just asking for CPU bottlenecking in a lot of the latest games such as Call of Duty: Black Ops http://www.techspot.com/review/336-cod-black-ops-performance/page8.html

At the end of the day, building a 'good' gaming system requires balance between all components. A little research goes a long way...

Thanks. Research is what my posts in this thread are all about.

I don't keep up on all the new tech, so asking (often dumb) questions are part of the learning curve.

This used to be so much simpler. Faster clock speeds meant faster processor. Now, with the different cache sizes, multiple cores, etc, a processor with a lower clock speed may be faster overall than a processor with a higher clock speed.
Same with video cards...Now, you have the first number for the card family, then the second and third numbers to differentiate where they stand in the family...
<scratches head>

 

[perdomot]

I agree that Intel is the way to go for gaming but you are spending too much on the other components. There are good P55 mobos for under $80, ram for $60, Cooler Master cases under $50 and a good heatsink for $25. This is all on Amazon. With a i5-760 cpu, that totals $420 leaving plenty of money left for the vid card. This would not be a "low end" system particularly if you OC the cpu to 4Ghz which seems ridiculously easy with that cpu.

 

[BoomerD]

I agree that Intel is the way to go for gaming but you are spending too much on the other components. There are good P55 mobos for under $80, ram for $60, Cooler Master cases under $50 and a good heatsink for $25. This is all on Amazon. With a i5-760 cpu, that totals $420 leaving plenty of money left for the vid card. This would not be a "low end" system particularly if you OC the cpu to 4Ghz which seems ridiculously easy with that cpu.

I'll grant that the case & cooler are a bit extravagant. I'm an old man...and I really don't want a case with so many lighted fans that I can read the fine print in an otherwise un-lit room. IMO, that's the biggest drawback to many cases...PLUS, I want one that actually looks fairly nice. I prefer a full tower case because I have huge hands, (size 15 wedding ring) and the smaller cases just don't give me enough room to work.
As it turns out, that Corsair case may not be the best choice. Apparently, it has less than ideal cooling, even with the large fans...but, most of the well-built full tower cases are well over $100.
I'm all for saving a bit of money where I can, as long as I don't have to sacrifice quality too much in the process.

Cheap motherboards, IME, have been the source of many problems for people (including me) over the years. ASUS has always been a good brand...and I've never had a bad one...but I'm open to other brands as long as they're reliable.

I'm not an overclocker. <gasp> I've never felt the need to do so. If the processor (or video card) doesn't do what I want, straight out of the box, then I need a better one. (even though the idea of wringing as much performance as possible out of one is appealing...as long as it doesn't damage it)

 

[WT]

Big case recommendation - Antec P180B - its as boring as you can get, but its very solid in all important aspects of what a case should do: cooling, aesthetics, roomy and easy to work on.
I'm sure since I bought mine another superior case has come out, but the Antec will surely be cheaper to buy as well.

 

[perdomot]

I'll grant that the case & cooler are a bit extravagant. I'm an old man...and I really don't want a case with so many lighted fans that I can read the fine print in an otherwise un-lit room. IMO, that's the biggest drawback to many cases...PLUS, I want one that actually looks fairly nice. I prefer a full tower case because I have huge hands, (size 15 wedding ring) and the smaller cases just don't give me enough room to work.
As it turns out, that Corsair case may not be the best choice. Apparently, it has less than ideal cooling, even with the large fans...but, most of the well-built full tower cases are well over $100.
I'm all for saving a bit of money where I can, as long as I don't have to sacrifice quality too much in the process.

Cheap motherboards, IME, have been the source of many problems for people (including me) over the years. ASUS has always been a good brand...and I've never had a bad one...but I'm open to other brands as long as they're reliable.

I'm not an overclocker. <gasp> I've never felt the need to do so. If the processor (or video card) doesn't do what I want, straight out of the box, then I need a better one. (even though the idea of wringing as much performance as possible out of one is appealing...as long as it doesn't damage it)

I hear you on the crazy lighting some cases have and as a fellow "mature" person I also prefer more subtle cases. Using the NZXT Beta Evo case currently but if you need something bigger try this: http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-...1068297&amp;sr=1-1 They have new ones for $99.
My order from Newegg came in today which includes an Asus mobo but the ones I referenced before are from Major companies like Gigabyte and MSI and while inexpensive the are not "cheap" like some 3rd tier manufacturers so don't worry there.

 

[BoomerD]

At this point, my only trepidation about buying an i5 is that the socket is considered "dead," with no planned expansion to more processors beyond what's currently in production.

I've already "maxed out one dead socket" with the 478, I'm not sure I want to go down that road again...BUT, the i7's are still a bit too pricey for my budget. (not only processors, but the motherboards as well)
Still, my 478 rig is still going strong, more than 7 years after I built it. (but it won't even begin to run current games)

Of course, this is just one of those dilemmas that we face all the time in the hobby...:biggrin:

I'm rather surprised at the difference in benchmarks between the Intel processors and the AMD offerings. I had expected AMD to stand up better. Every article I read has the Intel i5 doing far better than anything AMD, with only a few exceptions such as video and audio editing and such...

 

[perdomot]

I had my doubts as well considering the new Intel cpu is coming soon but considering how easy this cpu is to overclock to 4Ghz and how long that will be a useful speed, I decided to do it given the deal I got on Black Friday. The article at Xbitlabs also helped me choose the 760 over the X6 cpus from AMD.

 

[BoomerD]

I had my doubts as well considering the new Intel cpu is coming soon but considering how easy this cpu is to overclock to 4Ghz and how long that will be a useful speed, I decided to do it given the deal I got on Black Friday. The article at Xbitlabs also helped me choose the 760 over the X6 cpus from AMD.

Agreed. That deal was a steal...I only wish Amazon offered such deals. Maybe by the time my gift card arrive they'll come around...

 

[brownstone]

BoomerD, if you're going to be gaming, just go the i5, it's that simple. For that price bracket (~$200) theres nothing from AMD that really competes. The PH II 970 is some 20% slower and the 1055T even more so as its clocked lower. And Athlon IIs for gaming?! No thanks, unless you are on a tight budget. They are (clock for clock, and overall) one of the slowest CPUs for gaming right now, by a fair margin...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3937/...thlon-ii-cpus-balance-price-and-performance/5

It's just not worth sacrificing ~50% in gaming performance to save $100 on an Athlon II X4. The total cost of ownership is not that different, $800 vs $900 in your case. Yes one can argue that $100 can be put towards a more powerful graphics card, say a GTX470 instead of a GTX460, for example. But that is just asking for CPU bottlenecking in a lot of the latest games such as Call of Duty: Black Ops http://www.techspot.com/review/336-cod-black-ops-performance/page8.html

At the end of the day, building a 'good' gaming system requires balance between all components. A little research goes a long way...

.

The percentage hype is misleading. If you are trying to save money, you aren't going to regret getting a phenom II over an Intel i5. So you may get 20 percent less FPS, but it is still well over 100fps which isn't going to be a bottleneck anytime soon unless you are running SLI or Xfire cards. With that in mind, then you can go ahead and put the money towards a better video card and actually enjoy some quality eye candy.

 

[BoomerD]

I've been doing a LOT of reading on the different CPUs...not that I understand much, if any, of the "teknikal stuffs" but I Do understand the difference in frame rates...as well as over all processing speed in the benchmarks.

I LIKE the i7-870, and according to the Anandtech review,
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2832/16

the 870 is either slightly slower than the 17-975, or leads the pack, and in MOST benchmarks, smokes the AMD offerings significantly.

Surprisingly, the i5-750 holds its own very well with the i7-870 in MOST areas...and I'm just not sure I can justify the extra $90 to add hyperthreading...PLUS, apparently, the i5 doesn't overclock quite as well...but since I'm not an overclocker, (although I'd like to learn) this is a very minor issue for me.

Even though I was very interested in the AMD x4 and x6 processors when I entered this thread, It looks like even though they're very good for some applications, for my use, my money will be better spent if I buy the Intel i5-750.
(with Sandy Bridge about to be released, I hope the Lynnfield prices drop by a bunch!)

Also, I've been reading that ASUS has, or is about to, outsource their motherboard production to ECS. I don't think I like that much. I've only owned one ECS board, and it was a constant source of headaches that finally ended with the AGP slot fried and killed my video card. (I'm actually not sure whether the AGP slot killed the video card, or vice versa, but the end result was the same)
So...any GOOD recommendations for an 1156 board? I'd prefer to stay under $200...and under $150 is better. I WOULD like good on-board sound...since my old Soundblaster card was relegated to the junk pile when I "upgraded" to Vista. (never could find any driver work-arounds that actually worked)

 

[brownstone]

BoomerD, if you're going to be gaming, just go the i5, it's that simple. For that price bracket (~$200) theres nothing from AMD that really competes. The PH II 970 is some 20% slower and the 1055T even more so as its clocked lower. And Athlon IIs for gaming?! No thanks, unless you are on a tight budget. They are (clock for clock, and overall) one of the slowest CPUs for gaming right now, by a fair margin...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3937/...thlon-ii-cpus-balance-price-and-performance/5

It's just not worth sacrificing ~50% in gaming performance to save $100 on an Athlon II X4. The total cost of ownership is not that different, $800 vs $900 in your case. Yes one can argue that $100 can be put towards a more powerful graphics card, say a GTX470 instead of a GTX460, for example. But that is just asking for CPU bottlenecking in a lot of the latest games such as Call of Duty: Black Ops http://www.techspot.com/review/336-cod-black-ops-performance/page8.html

At the end of the day, building a 'good' gaming system requires balance between all components. A little research goes a long way...

Admittedly, when spouting off about the 100fps I was referring to the dragon age graph in the first link. With that out of the way, all of these benches and graphs are nice, but...

From the techspot link:
"Call of Duty: Black Ops can take advantage of four cores and is undoubtedly optimized for the current crop of chips. In fact, the game relies so heavily on all four cores that we found it almost unplayable (OK, that may be exaggerating a bit) on even the fastest dual-core CPU. That said, AMD's triple-core Athlon II and Phenom II processors did provide lag free performance."

Your other link :
"An older processor like the Core 2 Quad Q6600 suffers compared to the other CPUs tested, serving as a bottleneck to a high-end GPU such as the GeForce GTX 480. The Phenom II processors delivered average performance and we saw no real difference between the Phenom II X2 (dual-core) and Phenom II X4 (quad-core processors).

It is a shame that StarCraft II can only utilize two cores, as this really hurts older quad-core processors such as the Core 2 Quad Q6600. Furthermore this will also mean that those with budget quad-core processors, such as the Athlon II X4, will also suffer".

My point: Whether or not the i5 is "superior" in benchmarks doesn't matter. My point is that you are not going to notice a difference if you go with the Phenom II vs. the i5 in games. They will both run any of the games out now fine. Your video card is going to make the major difference if comparing i5 to Phenom x4.