Phenom II vs Athlon II

[GrandPixel]

I was just wondering how much performance difference there might be between Phenom II and Athlon II processors. I am making a build for a friend, not a gaming machine. But it is always nice when a computer is very snappy when navigating Windows and using apps etc.

Athlon II X2, X3, and X4 are about $60, $75, and $100 respectively. Phenom II are $95, $130, and $140.

Also, are there certain chips to avoid? What is the benefit of Black Edition processors?

I also need to consider core unlocking. I know this is not a guarantee, but a bonus. However, it seems like there is a good success rate. What chips are good for this?

Here is the list. Just need help considering the options. Thanks.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...se&Order=PRICE

Motherboard recommendations are welcome also. Needs to either have onboard graphics or inexpensive enough to make up for pci express card. Current choice is open box Asus M4A785TD-V EVO. Any reason not to buy open box?

Thanks for your input all.
http://detonator.dynamitedata.com/c...om/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131398R

 

[toyota]

not to sound rude but why not just use google and do some research on your own to see the differences? I mean basically everybody that responds is getting there info like that and just giving it to you. every major review site such as anandtech, xbitlabs, firingsquad and others has plenty of benchmarks.

Black edition just has an unlocked multiplier and as for the mobos there should be some users that can certainly point you in the right direction there.

 

[cbn]

I was just wondering how much performance difference there might be between Phenom II and Athlon II processors. I am making a build for a friend, not a gaming machine. But it is always nice when a computer is very snappy when navigating Windows and using apps etc.

If you are just navigating windows I would go with Athlon II x2 and apply any money saved towards SSD technology.

If planning on doing video editing and other more CPU intensive tasks take a look at benchmarks between Athlon II x4 and Phenom II x4.

What is the benefit of Black Edition processors?

Higher bin and unlocked multipliers.

 

[cbn]

I also need to consider core unlocking. I know this is not a guarantee, but a bonus. However, it seems like there is a good success rate. What chips are good for this?


Motherboard recommendations are welcome also. Needs to either have onboard graphics or inexpensive enough to make up for pci express card. Current choice is open box Asus M4A785TD-V EVO. Any reason not to buy open box?

This looks like a good list for choosing mainboards--->http://www.overclock.net/amd-cpus/535501-amd-phenom-ii-core-unlocking-guide.html

 

[DrMrLordX]

Also, are there certain chips to avoid? What is the benefit of Black Edition processors?

The main thing you have to consider right now is that Phenom II/Athlon II processors from the K10 family (x2, x3, x4) have varying degrees of process quality. There have been process revisions.

The best chips out there are the new C3-stepping X4s that have a lower TDP than their older C2 cousins . They overclock a tiny bit better, run at lower voltages, have better NB overclocking potential, and have fewer problems when running 4 DIMMs. Specifically, the chips to look out for are:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103808

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103727

I know those aren't the cheapest chips out there, but think of it this way: Get a decent OC board, OC the heck out of the Northbridge to reduce L3 latency, put in some relatively crappy RAM (save $$$), and OC the cores to about 4 ghz. The money you will save on the board and RAM will make up for the fact that you aren't buying a $100 Propus.

Or you can get an Athlon II X4 620 and buy expensive RAM to try to cover up for the lack of L3 cache, and then hit a wall when overclocking the NB at about 2.6 ghz and another wall when overclocking the cores at about 3.4-3.7 ghz. In the end you would probably wind up paying the same amount due to expensive RAM. I sort of want to go this route, but the more I think about it, the worse this decision looks. It would take some truly insane RAM to make up the performance difference between Propus and C3 Deneb.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the L3-less X2/X3/X4 processors since they are so cheap, but they do not have the OC potential of the new C3-stepping Phenom II X4s, AND they suffer from inferior scaling due to a lack of L3 cache. There is practically no reason to get C2-stepping Phenoim II X3/X4 processors unless you really want to try your hand at unlocking a core on an X3. Personally I consider core-unlocking on X2s and X3s to be hit-or-miss, and I'd rather not take the risk, especially since you're getting a C2-stepping chip anyway.

I would love to see C3-stepping Propus chips but there's no telling if/when that will happen.

In summary, go for the best stepping, which is C3. It'll be worth the extra money.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

I'd get the cheapest Athlon X3 and take the risk of unlocking. That's my opinion, but even if you don't get it unlocked to a full quad you still get a triple core and can easily OC it. 3.2-3.4ghz is the average OC on those chips and for only $75ish it's an incredible deal.

 

[cbn]

I know those aren't the cheapest chips out there, but think of it this way: Get a decent OC board, OC the heck out of the Northbridge to reduce L3 latency, put in some relatively crappy RAM (save $$$), and OC the cores to about 4 ghz. The money you will save on the board and RAM will make up for the fact that you aren't buying a $100 Propus.

Or you can get an Athlon II X4 620 and buy expensive RAM to try to cover up for the lack of L3 cache, and then hit a wall when overclocking the NB at about 2.6 ghz and another wall when overclocking the cores at about 3.4-3.7 ghz. In the end you would probably wind up paying the same amount due to expensive RAM. I sort of want to go this route, but the more I think about it, the worse this decision looks. It would take some truly insane RAM to make up the performance difference between Propus and C3 Deneb.

That is some very interesting cost analysis strategy.

P.S. How does someone know if a CPU is C3 stepping or not?

 

[TurtleCrusher]

That is some very interesting cost analysis strategy.

P.S. How does someone know if a CPU is C3 stepping or not?

I believe the boxes have different numbers and lower TDP.

Don't quote me on that. Well, you can but I might be wrong.

 

[Zebo]

I was just wondering how much performance difference there might be between Phenom II and Athlon II processors.

10% http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/phenom-athlon-ii-x2.html

I am making a build for a friend, not a gaming machine. But it is always nice when a computer is very snappy when navigating Windows and using apps etc.

Any CPU above $50 will do that - If you turn off all the animation crap on Win7 - if you don't no chip made will do it as MS puts millisec delays in some animations.

Athlon II X2, X3, and X4 are about $60, $75, and $100 respectively. Phenom II are $95, $130, and $140.

Best bang for the buck processor out now is 3.1Ghz Phenom II
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-680-_-Product
Then you *may*, 74.27% chance, unlock all four cores making it a steal.

Also, are there certain chips to avoid? What is the benefit of Black Edition processors?

Sempron and Celerons,.

I also need to consider core unlocking. I know this is not a guarantee, but a bonus. However, it seems like there is a good success rate. What chips are good for this?

As I said 74.27% based on data here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227004

Motherboard recommendations are welcome also. Needs to either have onboard graphics or inexpensive enough to make up for pci express card. Current choice is open box Asus M4A785TD-V EVO. Any reason not to buy open box?

Never buy open box. Stuff is missing and someone returned it for a reason. Save 10 bucks not worth it.
This is the best motherboard for that chip with video $90
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-395-_-Product

Best bang for the buck no video $70
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-392-_-Product

 

[DrMrLordX]

That is some very interesting cost analysis strategy.

It pains me to say it, since I was really looking forward to strapping some fast RAM onto a Propus and making it fly, but . . . hmm. Some things just aren't meant to fly.

From an educational point-of-view, if I really wanted to get a K10 running with low system memory latency just to see what it did, I would go with the Propus. If I really wanted bang/buck it seems like it's easier to try and goose up the L3 speeds via NB overclocking on a C3 Deneb.

P.S. How does someone know if a CPU is C3 stepping or not?

Just about every K10 sku that has been released since AMD moved to the C3 stepping should be C3. I think. I can't think of any particular reason why they would not churn out CPUs with this stepping from their 45nm fabs unless significant retooling is necessary to produce such processors (and I get the impression that it is not).

The links I provided are, to my knowledge, the only C3 stepping K10s out thus far (the Athlon 2650e and Athlon X2 3250e might also be C3), though I have heard rumblings of new AMD releases in the coming weeks that should all be C3 chips (Athlon II X4 635, X3 440, and X2 255; Phenom II X2 555BE and X4 910e).

Hmm! Looks like my pessimism regarding a C3 Propus was misplaced. An Athlon II X4 635 could be very interesting.

I believe the boxes have different numbers and lower TDP.

Don't quote me on that. Well, you can but I might be wrong.

You are correct sir. If you look at NewEgg's listings (for example), there are two different Phenom II X4 955BE and 965BE chips, the only difference being part numbers and TDP figures (the C2s are 140W, the C3s are 125W). The C3 chips are a tad more expensive which is to be expected.

 

[lopri]

I also endorse the C3 revision. Got a C3 955 BE for someone else's 780G board and I had to suppress the urge to swap it with my C2 955 BE. :biggrin: Another bonus of C3 is that C'nQ works when overclocked/underclocked using multipliers, making motherboards' life easier.

 

[rivethead]

10% http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/phenom-athlon-ii-x2.html


Any CPU above $50 will do that - If you turn off all the animation crap on Win7 - if you don't no chip made will do it as MS puts millisec delays in some animations.




Best bang for the buck processor out now is 3.1Ghz Phenom II
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-680-_-Product
Then you *may*, 74.27% chance, unlock all four cores making it a steal.


Sempron and Celerons,.


As I said 74.27% based on data here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227004





Never buy open box. Stuff is missing and someone returned it for a reason. Save 10 bucks not worth it.
This is the best motherboard for that chip with video $90
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-395-_-Product

Best bang for the buck no video $70
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-392-_-Product

Man, thanks for the detailed reply. Very helpful.

One question:

Wouldn't this Gigabyte MB with video be a better bang for the buck?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-398-_-Product

It's only $3 more after shipping and assuming you collect the rebate.

You get a ATI Radeon 3300 with 128MB of sideport memory with this board vs a ATI Radeon 4200 with the other.

 

[Zebo]

Sure why not...

I prefer 785G chip-set for OCing, newer tech, and DDR2 for rock bottom cost in FS forum. This is supposed to be a budget build so every choice I make is geared towards that but there is certainly room for other choices.
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3615&p=8

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Got an X3 720 back in April and while the 4th core didn't unlock on my board, it's taken on anything I've thrown at it with a mild overclock (3.2GHz) at stock voltage.

I've been meaning to push it further (it has an unlocked multiplier for crying out loud), and since it's winter and I finally got an aftermarket cooler, I may get around to playing with it.

 

[Jovec]

If it's truly a budget build for desktop use, just grab a Athlon II x2 240 for ~$60 and pair it with a 785g motherboard and use the onboard graphics. Combine it with 4GB RAM and Windows 7 will be fine for general desktop/internet/office/media usage. Anything else is complete overkill. If heavy video encoding is a possibility, consider upgrading to a ~$100 Athlon II x4 620.

L3 cache on the Phenom IIs is largely a benefit for gaming (when it comes to typical usage). Even video encoding sees little-to-no benefit from L3, only from more cores. Use the AT Bench to compare a PhII 920 versus a Athlon II 630 - same cores, same clockspeed, with L3 as the variable and you can see for yourself.

The 240 can game, but gaming is still largely limited by the video card. Consider how much your friend is likely to spend on a card in the future (and monitor resolution). $400+ for a 5870? Then the 240 isn't enough CPU. $200 or less for a 5770 or similar? The 240 will be fine for most games given that price-point in a GPU.

If you want to use something with a 790gx northbridge and 750 southbridge, with a Phenom II 720 or better to unlock and overclock (don't forget $40-50 for an aftermarket heatsink), you're going beyond what's needed for a general use computer. The C3 955s and 965s recommended here are very fine CPUs, but most people with those chips use aftermarket HSFs that are almost as expensive as the 240!

 

[DrMrLordX]

The C3 955s and 965s recommended here are very fine CPUs, but most people with those chips use aftermarket HSFs that are almost as expensive as the 240!

Either the 955BE or 965BE could be run with stock HSFs. If he doesn't want to spend that much to get a C3 chip, a variety of C3 chips at other price points should be coming out soon.

If any kind of overclocking will be involved with this build, it's hard to recommend picking up a C2 chip at this point unless he's trying to unlock cores, and as you elaborated, unlocking cores can come with additional expenses that sort of fly in the face of a "true" budget build.

 

[rivethead]

I finally decided that the L3 Cache wasn't going to be a big deal for my need (I really don't do any gaming).

I went with the Athlon II x4 Propus/MSI 785 MB combo here:

https://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=ADX620WFBX

For $158 (less 5% bing cb brought it down to $149.29) it was the best bang for my limited buget.

Thank you everyone who posted in this thread.....it was very helpful to me!

 

[zsdersw]

Sempron and Celerons,

There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing the Celeron E3xxx processors.

 

[Zap]

If you are just navigating windows I would go with Athlon II x2 and apply any money saved towards SSD technology.

This is exactly my first thought when I saw "nice when a computer is very snappy when navigating Windows and using apps etc."

 

[GaiaHunter]

I finally decided that the L3 Cache wasn't going to be a big deal for my need (I really don't do any gaming).

I went with the Athlon II x4 Propus/MSI 785 MB combo here:

https://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=ADX620WFBX

For $158 (less 5% bing cb brought it down to $149.29) it was the best bang for my limited buget.

Thank you everyone who posted in this thread.....it was very helpful to me!

That processor can game just fine- it just won't be top of any benchmark charts.

So if any time you are bitten by the game bug just throw a 5770 or 5870 (budget depending) and game whatever you want with max IQ.

 

[tweakboy]

I would say Phenom II is twice as fast at least....()

 

[nyker96]

game game game, if you play lots games, don't get Athlon x4, get PII x4. for average day apps, mostly you won't see any difference.

 

[cbn]

Speaking of Phenom II.

What is the difference between the L3 cache of the AMD chip compared to the L3 cache of the Intel chip?

One of the more knowledgeable posters once mentioned to me AMD used non-synchronus L3$ compared to Intel's synchronous L3$.

 

[lopri]

I was curious about that at one point in the past though I kind of lost interest. One thing that everyone knows is that Intel's L3 is 'inclusive', and AMD's L3 is 'exclusive'. By 'inclusive', it means L3 contains the duplicate data of L2. So when a core needs data that's just used from a different core, it can replenish the data from L3 without going to the system memory.

A downside to that is it uses extra die space and likely more power consumption, but since Intel's L3 is 8MB and AMD's L3 is 6MB and Intel has implemented sophisticated power planes (including Turbo) for Nehalem I think it's clearly a win for Intel in this case.

A somewhat more complicated to me is the associative. Phenom II's L3 is 48-way set associative, and i7's L3 is 16-way. I read a little bit about it but it was a long ago so I don't remember how they differ in design philosophy and in performance. I may look it up when I get a chance.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Speaking of Phenom II.

What is the difference between the L3 cache of the AMD chip compared to the L3 cache of the Intel chip?

One of the more knowledgeable posters once mentioned to me AMD used non-synchronus L3$ compared to Intel's synchronous L3$.

Aside from the exclusive/inclusive cache architectural differences that Lopri pointed out, K10 chips with L3 sync their L3 up with the on-die Northbridge (NB) while Intel apparently syncs up L3 on Nehalem (and Nehalem-derivative) chips to the cores.

So if you overclock the cores on a Clarksdale to, oh I don't know, 4.7 ghz, then the ratio of L3 speed to core speed should remain the same as it was at stock (presumably, this ratio is 1:1, though I don't know that for certain). L3 performance on Clarksdale is not at all related to system memory performance/IMC clockspeed.

On a Deneb chip, if you overclock the cores to 4 ghz but reach only 2.8 ghz with the NB, then your cores are a full 1.2 ghz faster than the L3 cache. Once you hit a wall with the NB, any additional clockspeed you get out of your cores functionally increases your L3 cache latency (as measured in cycles). It also increases the latency (as measured in cycles) of the link between the cores and the integrated memory controller, since K10's IMC is also sycned to the NB. So, really, if you overclock your cores on a Deneb without overclocking the NB, you get increased system memory latency AND L3 latency (again, as measured in cycles).

So . . . that's the situation. Clarksdale's cache scales properly, but as Hey Zeus has confirmed, system memory/IMC overclocking is extremely limited which causes problems in memory-intensive apps as Clarksdale's core speed increases (the higher the clockspeed, the more cache you need, and you're stuck with the same cache at 4.7 ghz as you are at stock). Deneb's situation is more-or-less dependent on NB speed (same with Propus, though Propus has no L3 obviously). With fast enough memory and a high enough NB speed, theoretically, K10 chips could scale perfectly, but most K10s crap out at an NB speed of about 3 ghz without exotic cooling, and DDR3 is limited to speeds of about DDR3-2200 to DDR3-2600 depending on who you believe (and the timings at those speeds are not so great).

If you want to see an example of "perfect" scaling in a memory-intensive app (SuperPi), check out my old Brisbane build thread (post #3):

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=22847303&postcount=3

Since K8 synced the IMC to the core speed, as long as I kept the same memory ratio, all I had to do was crank HTT up and scaling was more-or-less perfect (it was actually above 100%, though I regard that as being some sort of statistical anomaly or something-or-other). K10 would be the same way if the NB didn't crap out at such slow speeds (though I'm sure a similar series of benchmarks would show similar scaling if you kept core speeds and NB speeds synced and just stopped at 2.6-3 ghz).