Phage , the virus that cures

Discussion in 'Highly Technical' started by William Gaatjes, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    Oh, i agree that my post above might seem as the answer but it is not.
    I do think and that is my intention is that when it comes to some of the diseases that accumulate and kill fast or kill slowly like for example cancer that the wrong combination of viruses and bacteria might be the reason or the wrong combination of bacteria and toxins or a combination of viruses , bacteria, toxins, and other pathogens like fungi, yeast...

    But as you state yourself, many viruses have these tricks up their viral sleeves. Now you can imagine, that it is the consensus in the medical world that most viruses are harmless. I do think that in a solitary situation as for example lab experiments nothing will happen because of the isolated nature. But in real life, we are infected often by multiple pathogens and we carry more microbes in and on our body then we have body cells. We live in symbiosis. Now the real bad bugs are aggressive and kill humans quick. But a life long of having the wrong balance of gut microbes and living in a toxic environment and eating the wrong food. I am amazed how resilient the human body is. But i wonder if there is an epigenetic effect to be discovered here as well, that is as soon as the consensus is adjusted.
     
  2. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    Do not worry.

    Here something funny to watch 2:20 to 2:50 :
    The series is great though and she is a very good comedienne...
    And makes you laugh when she is laughing.
    :^_^


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjJ5B7xcfbI
     
  3. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0
    you think the polio virus is extinct ? Far from it.


    actually a poor immune system is the biggest offender of cancers.a healthy immune system spots and removes cancers. Odd that cancer rates sky rocket alongside immunization rates. Disturbing trend.



    Well obviously a poorly performing immune system will not catch the virus that cuases the cell mutation that leads to cancer. It is common sense.
     
  4. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    I do not think it is extinct. It is very much alive.
    Life is never that easy to kill. I am sure variants of the polio virus still exist in some remote area.


    What do you mean by this ? Can you clarify, please ?
    This that you mention reminds me of SV40.

    By your perspective people would either be sick forever or never sick.
    It is a lot more complicated then that.

    For example, a lot of "harmless" viruses are transmitted by intimate contact.
    From that perspective, the best practice would be to avoid viruses transmitted through intimate contact, is to find one partner and stay with that partner for life, not even kissing. With such discipline a lot of viruses and their effects would be eradicated from a large part of humanity, but accidents will always happen. However, can you ask people such a way of life ? Even through the use of religion, people cannot be forced and will find a way and a scapegoat. People have to decide for themselves what is best.

    Another example is that some pathogens have novel ways to prevent alarming the human immune system. The phrase "You do not care about what you do not know." works very well for the immune system.
     
  5. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are always technically sick. You have virus loads right now. The difference is do they overwhelm you or not ? for instance most adults today carry chicken pox. The varserillas virus. It is however inactive even though it is always there.

    So how does that work again ?

    there are several strains of Polio. Only one of which is paralitic and the other strains pose no more symptoms then the flu with one strain cuasing severe to mild respritory distress.

    which one is extinict.



    a well practiced immune system is a healthy body. My family survived the great plague, only family in the village. Virus's are not fundementaly a bad thing. They can and do cuase positive mutation "as well as negative mutations" and also serve the pupose of trimming the herd for healthier more capable producing stock.

    We are just fancy animals after all.





    not really. we might be poisoning ourselves.
     
  6. Gibsons

    Gibsons Lifer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2001
    Messages:
    12,486
    Likes Received:
    4
    sigh...

    I just don't have time for this.
     
  7. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    Although i do not know much about this as you do, i will give it a try.




    What do you think inactive means ?
    You have not received an alive and healthy version of the virus. That is the whole idea. Because if you did receive a fully healthy version, you might as well have died if you did, but not necessarily.
    (Was confused with small pox)


    You make the same mistake about Darwins principle of evolution as the next.
    It has nothing to do with being the strongest overall. For some people in your family all the variables where right to survive. They where lucky.

    For example , the physically stronger lion gets bitten by a snake. Is weakened but is not dying. Now in a fight for a troop of females he looses from a lion that is far less powerful but has the advantage of not having snake venom in his veins. And as such the weaker lion spreads his genes.
    Another example is a physically stronger lion and a physically weaker lion where both get bitten by a snake. The weaker lion however has a built in advantage to recover from snake venom faster and is almost not affected. And such the physically stronger and superior lion loses from the physically weaker lion in a fight for a troop of females because in that special case the physically weaker lion had the advantage. In a normal situation he had lost.

    You have a false view of supremacy and do not understand how nature works. Nature cannot be divided into separate cases.
    Some real life examples :

    http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/may98/niaid-06.htm

    http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/07.09/CysticFibrosisG.html

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10013-cystic-fibrosis-gene-protects-against-tuberculosis.html

    Cystic fybrosis and typhoid or or cholera tubercolosis.

    A genetic mutation that protects against the disease typhoid but expected is that tubercolosis was the major contributor to the spreading of the genetic mutation..
    But when you aquire this mutation from both parents, you get the very awful disease called cystic fybrosis.

    Sickle cell anemia.

    A mutation in the production of red blood cells creates a barrier for the plasmodium parasite.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria#Genetic_resistance_to_malaria

    http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/malaria_sickle.html

    About the black death and protection against HIV1:

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_plague/index.html

    http://www.wellsphere.com/hiv-aids-...r5-delta-32-in-the-european-population/439163


    Now could you please continue this in another new thread about your genetic superiority. I try to accumulate information in this thread. Thank you.
     
    #57 William Gaatjes, Jul 1, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  8. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    I was wondering if the CCR5 delta 32 mutation would make people more susceptible to a genetic disease. I have not found information about that. But it seems that people who have the CCR5 delta 32 mutation are more likely to not survive an encounter with the west nile virus.

    http://www.trofileassay.com/Natural_History.html

    This is another example that these mutations are not steered by some intelligence. Symbolic speaking : We just run from one threat in the arms of another threat. And adjusting in the progress. This is happening all over the planet. I do not know of any life form that is able to not mutate over time.
    If there is, i would gladly read about it..
     
  9. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0
    First off you make a false premise about virus behavior. They are not living creatures such as bacteria. They are essentially for lack of a better term a hacking agent. a virus hacks the DNA of a host cell and then convert the host cell into a reproduction facility that creates either more DNA or cells to create more virus. They don't really do anything else. The symptomology of each virus is different to some extent but the function is all the same.

    Most virus's can most likely be traced to cell mutations as a point of origin. Wiat for it the research will ferret this out.

    There is no genetic superiority. Only genetic traits that allow some individuals to survive certain enviromental difference more or less sucessfully. In the case of my family it is resistance to many types of viral strains but issue with dealing with bacteria and alergens and having a hyper immune system.

    sickle cell is though to provide protection against Milaria.


    On the immunization front.

    Why are we infecting ourselves ? Do you think those DNA/RNA fragments totally leave ? har har har they are simply incorporated into our bodys in some fashion or another only to cuase cancer or other immune system related problems later. Do you think it is coincedance that cancer rates have sky rocketed alongside immunization rates. Where is all of the genetic virus trash they are finding comming from ?

    chicken pox become dormant but it can also become active later in life. shingles is the example of this. The reason it stays dormant is becuase the immune system can suppress it. However in periods of high stress or illness chickenpox can often reappear and cuase shingles or even another high level infection.

    The arrogance of man is in beliving we can do anything about the situation.

    Polio is a great example.

    in the 1930's we ran nearly 1,000,000 cases annualy of the repritory strain. By the early 1950's the indedance rate dropped to under 50,000 annually.

    there was no medical intervention no vaccines to help fight the disease.ultimately the thing that really seemed to help was the improvements in sanitation and the treating of the drinking water supply with cholrine.



    So for all the hyperbole about advances in using virus's and immuniation to cure disease, it is just that. Hyperbole. If time is a test in the next 10 years we shall see a rampant increase in auto immune disease as we have been for the last 3 decades although and I will predict this based on todays data. We shall see a 10 fold increase in diabete mellitis " auto immune attack on the pancreas"

    It is already happening. It is most likely being driven by the chickenpox immunizations. Which many european and canadian researchers have pointed to the chickpox virus itself being a preindicator for developing Diabete mellitis.

    Your pretty ignorant on what the effect of our meddeling is.
     
  10. Gibsons

    Gibsons Lifer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2001
    Messages:
    12,486
    Likes Received:
    4
    Based on the above quote, I think you have a lot to learn about what a vaccination is or how the immune system works. Or biology in general.

    I'll ask you a question or two: What "DNA/RNA fragments" are you worried about?

    How are they "incorporated into our bodys in some fashion or another?" What does that even mean?

    Anyway, increased cancer rates are mostly due to increased longevity. So in some sense, you're right, vaccinations have led to increased cancer rates. People are dying of cancer at age 70 instead of say, small pox at age 20.

    You can form an opinion on whether it's arrogant or not, but in many cases it's a fact.
     
  11. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    It is the combination of viruses and bacteria that is the basis of life. Viruses cannot survive in a changing environment without bacteria. Bacteria cannot survive in a changing environment without viruses. It is this basic concept that is the start for more diversity and for more complex forms. Without viruses, life would have to depend on mutagens like radiation or chemicals or heavy elements for dna changes to occur. With viruses, life has a very powerful tool to speed up evolution. I would almost admit that viruses are very elegant tools to create new forms of life.

    EDIT:
    Forgot to mention that this was primarily the case when life in this solar system and in particular on the planet Earth was evolving. Through evolution, many viruses where incorporated and as such a build in means of adaptation was evolved. But i have to admit this and the text above is my opinion based on some information
    i found so far.
    /EDIT:

    Doubt that.

    From this i would think that you have some auto immune system issue in the family. Not to be a mean person, but as i told you before, change in one direction makes a lifeform more susceptible for a certain situation in another direction. But i am happy to read that you agree that genetic superiority only exist in one certain situation at the right place and time. And as such does not last. I would personally call this the law of evolution.

    I am not ignorant at all. I think i know pretty much about the dangerous side effects of not having proper procedures. If you have read this thread fully, you might have read that i am very concerned about the lack of looking from different perspectives at the same time, at a certain solution used now or has been used in the past. Solutions such as genetic modifications or using vaccines while not checking what the vaccine is actually comprised of. I agree that some people have been meddling out of greed and a limited intelligence. And such is the burden of the human race. We are all doing our best to change that. The easiest change is eradication and start new. But that is against the believes of many and as such a more difficult, more labour intensive , more time consuming approach is happening. You reap what you sow or better known as karma. It is the fundamental rule, so much ignored and forgotten. But i am wondering off... :hmm:

    But you make the same mistake and that is looking from one perspective at a time : Less stress, better food, more sleep, children that are fed properly and have a save place to sleep. All this affects the human body greatly. That humanity in the western world lives longer is because of common sense. Simple things we still try to deliver to other countries like clean water make an enormous amount of difference.

    A few centuries ago, people in some countries in Europe realized that water makes you sick. As such, they never bathed and drank as little water as possible because they argued that not using water keeps you healthy. That is afcourse a very simple view but i do think you understand what i mean. While cooking the water or purifying it in another way makes it perfectly save to drink and use to wash with.

    Life is not that simple, my friend. It is very complicated. But the more of those variables the equation of life is comprised of you can see, the more beautiful life becomes and you start to treasure it more.

    EDIT:
    You really need to view this, it will explain a lot :

    http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate.html
     
    #61 William Gaatjes, Jul 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  12. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    There is another new way discovered/identified about how viruses can be incorporated into the genome of for example mammals.

    Although this text would suggest that a complete virus is encoded into the dna of the marsupials. I do not think that it is possible for some form of coordinated gene expressions to become active and that some part or organ of the animal would start to produce a complete and functional filovirus. If it was however, we can stop watching science fiction movies. Because this would be i think the holy grail. :eek:
    Another thing that i ask myself, is how does the virus get incorporated in the dna of the animal ? I think that perhaps infection of multiple viruses from different families may help. An RNA virus together with a filo virus. I do not know if that is possible though. It is just an idea.

    http://www.physorg.com/news197298768.html


    What are filoviruses :

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/filoviruses.htm
     
    #62 William Gaatjes, Jul 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  13. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0

    Actually it is the common misconception about what is taught in the medical sciences field as to how virus's work that is really the key problem.

    Do you know what cancer ultimately is ?

    a fialure of the immune system to stop a cell that has mutated "non beneficially" from reproducing. IE cancers grow becuase the immue system cells have difficulty distingushing the difference between friend and foe. How could this have happened in a 10-12 year old child.

    what would cuase the immune system in a otherwise healthy person to attacks its own body and kill the pancreas ?

    MisIdentification.

    Now how does that mechanism become broken. All the micro celluar issues aside.

    BTW look at cancer in chlidren and people under 50 . compares those numbers to 30-40-50 years ago.

    When you take a vaccination you have aquried the very illness you in fact were attempting to avoid.
     
  14. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0
    I disagree on that aspect. Had I taken the narrow view of health I would have concluded based on current infection rates that vaccinations provide a margin of immunity against diseases. Instead I looked at the data in its totality including data from periods of high and low disease rates and looked at things in totality. What outside factors may have influenced outbreaks and rates of infection.

    The #1 factor in almost every instance is that hygene in terms of water, fleas etc is the primary indicator of overall infection rates.

    If you doubt this. Look at measles in the UK. immunizations have fialed to end the infection rates. In fact the new mesales strains are resistant to immunizations if the data is correct.If the immunizations ever really had any effect anyway??? Maybe the herd gianed a natural immunity due to repeated infection that eventually became prevelant and ended the problem of infection anaywas. Measales had pretty much gone away on its own. Infections rates had dropped prior to the MMR shots and other mesales immunizations.

    So on that front. If we consider all data "not data from the current age of medicine" but data from say the last 100 years versus the last say 30 we find that most of the prominent diseaes we immunize for went away without any vaccines.

    BTW having had measales I will enjoy my permamnent immunity for life.
     
  15. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    I give you the benefit of the doubt.
    Can you explain how antibodies work for me ?
    And how the immune system stores information about pathogens in the body ?
    And how this affects the immunity for pathogen x version a and pathogen x version b. Same pathogen, different version.


    http://www.cellsalive.com/antibody.htm

    The whole problem is that you still look from one perspective.
    You have to understand we are all a bit different from each other, unique.
    (If humans would know this from childhood on, they maybe no longer would have the desire to differentiate themselves from others because they already are) But i am wondering of...

    You have to understand we are all a bit different from each other, unique.
    Because of this, pathogen a is normally not going to have much affect on person a when compared to person b or person c, etcetera. Now what the whole idea is, give the group of people a vaccination. Most will benefit, some will get sick because of a wrong reaction. At the time, people wanted to save lives, others wanted to make money so these people just accepted the risks. And your right in that way, they unknowingly steered human evolution in a certain direction. That is where you are right and i agree about meddling. But you have to understand that if nothing was done, there would have been a lot more deaths.Talking about survival of the fittest is easy until you have to helplessly witnessing how your children suffer and you have to bury your own children. This is what i mean with different perspectives. No story has 1 side.

    What you probably mean is that the vaccination is contaminated with by products. This is the real issue. It is not the actual desired (for the vaccine)pathogen parts that make you sick. It is the contamination of vaccines. At page 2 of this thread, i mention the SV40 virus. You should really the read links i provided about how those polio vaccines where created and how there was one scientist (Bernice Eddy) ignored that the vaccines would be contaminated. However, the managers did not listen and millions of people got more then 40 (SV40 was number 40 identified and the list kept on growing) alive and kicking pathogens( different kind of monkey viruses) and 1 disabled and weakened polio virus. Now you could say, that we are not affected by monkey viruses. But evolution has a nasty side as well. When multiple of these viruses infect a cell and viruses that are lethal infect the same cell, the possibility arises and probability increases that a new virus will be created that will be lethal to humans. A new virus. Since we cannot scan all the cells of every individual on this planet or at least in a city, we will never know what virus is new and what virus is old. We can only assume based on indirect findings.
    Remember about influenza and how pigs, chickens, ducks and humans are all infected with viruses and these viruses recombine when these animals and humans live close together ?
    The 1918 infuenza epidemic ? Perhaps there is a reason why many people in the middle east do not want to eat pig meat. Because pigs are the biological equivalent of the melting oven for viruses. And the western world even has food recipes with raw or hardly cooked or baked pig meat. :eek:
    How about a medium done steak where the blood still comes pouring out ! :eek:
    I know steak is bovine or cow meat but anyway...

    It is the contamination that causes more problems then the weakened vaccination it self.
    Here is a link :
    http://www.sv40foundation.org/Chronology.html


    The human immune system can be deadly in a few minutes if it would turn in full aggression against the human body.The human immune system is incredibly powerful. But the human immune system does not come pre-compiled with a database. The human immune system is learned what is friend and foe by chance and because of little bacteria spies that help our immune system pointing out agressive pathogens. The chance factor is greatly increased because when you are born, you get breast milk. In this breastmilk, a lot of bacteria are present you need. At the same time you get all the bacteria from your mother and father because of the cuddling and hugging and kissing. As such, your immune system is learning and gathering information while you are a little infant. You already have a large part of the bacteria that you need because you where in the womb. The placenta shields and filters a lot, but it is not perfect. If too clean means you do not have friendly bacteria on you or inside you, then too clean is not good in a world where you are surrounded with microscopic life looking for a home and food...


    The friends :
    In general the thymus, it is a special test system where the new cells(T-lymphocytes or T cells) of the immune system are being tested if they will recognize body cells as enemies. If so, these t-cells must be destroyed.

    The friends part 2 :
    You have 10 times as much bacteria living on and inside you as you have body cells. Your immune system is fighting not all these bacteria, Some (probably a pretty large part)bacteria work in a cooperative manner with your immune system. In a few posts above is solid evidence of a bacteria warning the immune system about an dangerous imposter the immune system itself can not recognize.

    The friends part 3 :
    These bacteria are the first line of defense , for example on your skin their exist bacteria that fight of other pathogens when your skin is damaged. And because these friendly bacteria fill up the wound, it is for the human immune system more easy to get rid of them again because these friendly bacteria are in the database of your immune system, while a new unknown pathogen would need to learned first. And learning takes time.

    The human immune system acts in reality more like a balance to keep cooperative cells and cooperative bacteria at a proper level. Everything that does not cooperate must be destroyed to make sure the body as a whole is not compromised. You can understand, we really are redundantly made up of tiny little biological devices. Because everything is efficient, there is hardly any waste.

    Now imagine all these little bacteria also have phages. ^_^

    The foe's :
    Every pathogen that wants to get inside and causes havoc in your body and distorts the balance. The Article and the video about Bonnie Bassler, explains much about quorum sensing or the molecular language between bacteria. Bacteria talk to each other. And the immune system is connected to this communication network as well.


    EDIT :

    Some more information about how important the right balance is between the organisms living in your gut.:
    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2084791

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2051807&highlight=genetics




    About the placenta :
    ( I am not fond of using to much wikipedia but i am getting tired)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placenta#Cloaking_from_immune_system_of_mother




    And something else : epigenetics :

    And a documentary about epi genetics :
    I cannot find the link to the thread anymore thus i will just add it as link to google video :

    A BBC horizon documentary about epi genetics :

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1128045835761675934#docid=9208477461799586076


    And the deletion of the same gene on the same location of chromosome 15 causes a different disease depending if the deletion is on the dna strand from the father or on the dna strand from the mother.
    It is genomic imprinting : http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/chromosome/15

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelman_syndrome

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prader–Willi_syndrome
     
    #65 William Gaatjes, Jul 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2010
  16. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    I learn every day :)
    I was reading about the singer Sonique and read that she was ill with breast cancer in 2009. Naturally i did a quick search and i never knew this, but it seems there is a link between breast cancer and a virus found in cancerous breast tissue.

    The MMTV virus is a cause of breast cancer in mice. But it seems this virus is found as well in human breast tissue that turned cancerous.

    Now it may not be the sole cause, but it is interesting what the connection may be...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3879783.stm

    http://www.webmd.com/breast-cancer/news/20061214/mouse-virus-link-breast-cancer

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_mammary_tumor_virus
     
    #66 William Gaatjes, Jul 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2010
  17. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    #67 William Gaatjes, Jul 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2010
  18. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0

    I understand the celluar interaction issue but I lack the communication skills to effectively describe what I take in. It is a disability and a very anoying one.

    Anyways to adress your points.

    The very systems you describe later in your post about the immune systm are interesting in 2 facets.

    1. We bypass those response mechanisms by introvenously injecting "anti bodies" which is a misnomer.

    Vaccine delibrately give a person a infection, typically with a non human genome parent cell. This almost always creates a massive response as a forgien cell. Now similar things do occur with normal infection but the vaccine itself is not even the same disease we are immunizing for.

    Virus + host cell equals different disease. IE a human polio cell is genetically different then a monkey polio cell. So even IF we can avoid complications from the delibrate infection by the virus,what we are immunizing for is already genetically different from the human version. In fact all the human versions while relatively similar are different due to the fact that the Host DNA in some fashion is retained by the virus to help it disguise itself from the immune system in a virus infection.

    So the very premise of the vaccine is False on its face.

    2. I am not worried about the contimination so much as the fact that we have no way to prove IF vaccines are effective.

    IE if you look at comparative data and set aside medical research. Infections come and go.

    There was a great case in ohion some 3 years agoe where 400 kids got measales. Upon investigation all 4000 young adults had not only been properly immunized but had had the needed boosters as well.

    So obviously when 100% of the infected population is immunized. It speas volumes about the effectiveness of the immunizations on its face.

    BTW the data for that infection group has been curiously removed from the FDA website. I don't know why.

    3. Immunizations will not work for a substantial portion of the population. due to genetic variances vaccines may only be effective in at best 10% of the population.

    Thanx to the wonderful genetic manipulation of virus's every infectee creates a new strain of the virus simply by becoming infected.

    4. We are learning more about virus's. This will hopefully change the future of how these vaccines are developed. Maybe they will become effective.

    Just a foot note.

    Polio was generally transmitted by water in swimming pools and misquitos.
     
  19. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cancer in and of itself is a virus by the best definition.



     
  20. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    I do not know if that is the case.

    But i do know that viruses are the reason why we exist.

    I mean, if you want to make a sterile environment, that is fine. But then you first have to completely change how the human body works. Because we are part of our environment and our environment is part of us. And when you succed you still have to create defenses against bacteria.
     
  21. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0

    I don't worry about it. They come and they go regardless of what we do. We can take some commons sense steps to reduce deaths and infections but beyond that. We are at the planets mercy.

    do you know how few people died of polio vs the total number of infections.

    about as bad as the flu in reality.
     
  22. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    The FDA has some strange behaviour sometimes. I do not think the FDA is fully independent.
    And i do think sometimes people have been used as guinea pigs.

    There is a theory for example that multiple scleroses originated from biological experiments in the USSR. But i do not know to believe that. This man claimed he created a disease by manipulating dna from viruses and bacteria that is exactly the same as MS. The rabbits that where used as test subjects got a fewer first and a few days later these rabbits where healthy. But a few weeks later the rabbits started to behave strange. The rabbits acquired an auto immune disease that affected the myelin sheats of the nerves... The name of the doctor is Sergei Popov. I do not know if it is true though...

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bioterror/biow_popov.html
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX67YtDjPms
    And a 50 minuted documentary where Sergei Popov speaks.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpz-f-DgDK4&feature=related





    I agree that we could not give the human polio virus at the time in the 19 century. But with todays technology we can actually learn our immune system about specific virus proteins. The only problem is that before we can do such a thing, we must perform the same function as the thymus does. And that is to check if this is not a body protein because then we might create an auto immune disease. Now most proteins are encased in lipids when they travel around in the bloodstream because other wise the immune systems assume these as hostile, if i am not mistaken. Perhaps Gibsons can explain it better if he has the time...

    But what do you think then what has happened during the first vaccination that started all this :Edward Jenner was the first to use the vaccination technique because he noticed the girls who took care of the cows did not get sick.

    After this he used it on many people who did not die. I do think vaccination is not a bad method. But it all depends on what is being used.


    http://www.zephyrus.co.uk/edwardjenner.html
     
    #72 William Gaatjes, Jul 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2010
  23. Mr. Pedantic

    Mr. Pedantic Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    5,040
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is not true. The lymphocytes that make up the body's cell-mediated immunity do not inherently recognize the difference between self and non-self antigens. Though lymphocytes recognize only peptides, the body does not need lipids to disguise the presence of proteins. Instead, all the lymphocytes that could possibly be activated by self antigens in the body are screened during maturation by the bone marrow and thymus, and destroyed.

    Also, as far as I know there is no effective way to teach the immune system to recognize a new antigen. Unless the genotype HLA complement of an individual were missing a combination that allowed a certain lymphocyte to bind said antigen with any affinity, there is no point - the body can already do this on its own. Vaccines and inoculation do not enhance this, they simply prepare the body for the reinfection with this virus by causing an immune response, which in turn causes the production of memory lymphocytes that can produce a much quicker secondary response in the case of reinfection.
     
  24. ModestGamer

    ModestGamer Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanx you so much for explianing what I was trying to get at.

    When you get a vaccine fo say measales. We are giving Measales to the person being vaccinated. givin that the virus is genetically altered it no longer represents the actual virus in the wild. Ergo the vaccine will not be effective.

    BTW getting the mseaes is a 100% effective guarentee against reinfection. Given the data on the measales vaccine that I have seen on and off over the years. the vaccine does not work with modern strains.

    Also measales just isn't that bad. Really no worse then chicken pox excpet for the high fever. Which if left alone poses no significant threat. Mot of the complications with measales are cuaed by overly aggresive treatment altering the normal path of the bodys immune response.
     
  25. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,647
    Likes Received:
    10
    I am bit weary. How do auto immune diseases start then ?
    I for example learned from a colleague that he acquired diabetes after he had a virus infection which then caused his immune system to attack the islets of Langerhans. My memory is failing on me because i vaguely remember that someone in Canada who had diabetes had an experimental treatment, where his bone marrow was destroyed. And when he had his transplant, the memory of his immune system was erased and he no longer had diabetes. The same version of diabetes my colleague has.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islets_of_Langerhans

    If he is in, i will ask about it tomorrow.

    I think it where the measles , what he aquired. After that he became a diabetic type 1. I will verify it when he is in.

    There is some mention about this virus :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coxsackie_B4_virus
     
    #75 William Gaatjes, Jul 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2010