Personal Responsibility....or the lack thereof

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Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I don't know why Shinerburke brought this up either. I thought it was accepted fact! :p
  • Procedural Tort Reform
    Lessons from Other Nations

    By all reasonable measures, the American tort system is a disaster. It resembles a wealth-redistribution lottery more than an efficient system designed to compensate those injured by the wrongful actions of others...

    ...A great deal more needs to be done. Further limitations on jury discretion, widespread implementation of the loser-pays rule, and replacement of contingency fees with conditional fees would each substantially reduce unwarranted litigation. ~ all of these measures were implemented, the United States would have a rational tort system like other common-law nations, and deregulation at the federal level would no longer be stunted by fear of the tort consequences.
Everybody knows that the first thing uttered when somebody stubs their own toe is, "I'LL SUE!" And they do! :|
 

pamchenko

Golden Member
Nov 28, 1999
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chess9 are you being sarcastic or??

I think GF that you are guilty of conditional policies where u the sole judge of who wins/loses. Suppose that wasn't an old woman, but a college frat guy, would u honestly have any sympathy? be true to yourself here. The problem with your kind of logic is that it discriminates. Because you are sympathetic to old women doesn't make you a nice person GF. (whisper's sympathy is more appropriate ... he or she feels bad for the pain she felt and doesn't go as far as to say "mickey Ds should AT LEAST pay her bills and med costs ... as if there was more possibly they could pay for)

GL's example is more mainstream and addresses the problem of personal responsibility well...however, if you were in these situations, and you were presented with an opportunity to be rewarded with money through a frivolous lawsuit, I suppose many people would take the money. Most people will think they are taking from a big company and justify their own pursuits. Also, if you run with scissors and stab yourself, if you sued someone I think also vindicates your stupidity. What I'm saying here is that though I think there should be more of a personal responsibilty, I can't see people making the "right" decision (ez money vs get stuck with med bills)...

so here the govt must intervene and set policy to make it harder to start frivolous lawsuits. I agree with Jmman here. We all suffer when those that are selfish abuse the system.



<< All I'm saying is that it's all about whose ox gets gored. We are a statisitcal collective. Sometimes it's the man in the saddle and sometimes the saddle on the man. >>

moonbeam what do u mean? while policy affects all blindly, I don't think you express this clearly?

btw shinerburke, great thread... i have no idea if chess9 is being sarcastic? I think so because you ahve used real world examples here and not examples regarding the erotic use of cucumber...
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
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Good grief....I just got home and checked this thread and WOW...I had no idea it would cause this much furor.

What I was trying to get across with my examples was z:Dihj dugf'pUIASD PIOg
]SDGj';SUI&quot; puigo aSDQw78bv08 7qwy[0y8

OW!! OW!!! OW!!! My stupid IBM keyboard is killing my wrist!! Honey, get the lawyer on the phone.....I feel a BIG payday coming!!!
 

Yeeny

Lifer
Feb 2, 2000
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I think GF that you are guilty of conditional policies where u the sole judge of who wins/loses. Suppose that wasn't an old woman, but a college frat guy, would u honestly have any sympathy? be true to yourself here. The problem with your kind of logic is that it discriminates. Because you are sympathetic to old women doesn't make you a nice person GF.

Pamchenko, it is a real shame you have to personally attack me, because you cannot logically dispute my ideas. When your ready to argue the points in this thread with me, instead of trying to bash me in every single thread you can find me in, let me know. Until then, I have better things to do.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I think piku has a case here...

&quot;If the cuke don't fit, he can not sh!t.&quot; :Q
 

HaVoC

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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This is generally a great thread except for the ad hominem attacks. I thought that Cato Institute essay was very well written and contains sound arguments.

The large and VERY powerful trial lawyer lobby in this country will make ANY meaningful tort reform very difficult to enact on a national/federal scale.

It's ironic that European and Commonwealth countries tend to have more conservative tort laws while America has a relatively much more liberal system.

I agree that tort reform is a big issue that often gets silenced due to the powerful lobbies interested in keeping their contingency fees and sympathetic civil juries.

The McDonald's case nothwithstanding, it's almost always pretty easy to get sympathetic ears on the jury when it is a &quot;big bad corporation&quot; against the &quot;poor, innocent plaintiff&quot; Instead of justice being served, you make a few greedy lawyers and plaintiffs very rich and the expensive of everybody else.
 

pamchenko

Golden Member
Nov 28, 1999
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GF, i asked you a question (and i guess i did attack you) ... if it was a college frat guy, would u have been as sympathetic?
 

Yeeny

Lifer
Feb 2, 2000
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No, I probably would not have been as sympathetic, but I still would have felt bad and felt that he did deserve something for his pain, because the coffee should not have been that hot, for anyone to drink. But older people take longer to heal, and have a harder time recovering from injuries such as that. Caring about the elderly in our world does not make me an evil person, no matter how hard you try to make it seem like it does.
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
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<< GF, i asked you a question (and i guess i did attack you) ... if it was a college frat guy, would u have been as sympathetic? >>



Back to the title of this thread: Personal Responsibility... or the lack thereof

I am certain that every time some college frat boy dies from drinking too much during hazing, GF feels the pain of his parents. Does that count? Since college frat boys and almost 80 year old women are poles apart and can't be compared in terms of physical ability and agility, it is unlikely that they would be in similar situations.

The difference between GF and so many others here is that she has both compassion and wisdom, a rare combination.
 

pamchenko

Golden Member
Nov 28, 1999
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well some ppl are more calculating, some ppl are more compassionate ... maybe it's inherent gender differences... anyways...do you girls see that while its ok to feel bad for the old lady, it would be wrong for a person in general to sue a company frivolously? like i sed in an earlier post, I agree with whisper, its ok to sympathize, but lets look at the ramifications here.
as a person, I would want to help the old lady, whatever. but you hafta realize she is taxing public resources as well and consider all the factors in this issue...
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
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Actually, I find it interesting this discussion about the &quot;old lady&quot; in the coffee incident. When I was sued for my car accident(the details of which I discussed earlier), the lady I barely scraped was an older, hispanic lady. As far as the legal merits of the case, she didn't stand a chance. The case was ultimately settled though, simply because she was a sympathetic figure, and I am young and have money. Interesting, huh? The article I posted discusses how in other countries, a jury is not used in a civil trial for this exact reason. Judges on the other hand have to issue a written reason for their decision based solely upon the law......
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
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<< do you girls see that while its ok to feel bad for the old lady, it would be wrong for a person in general to sue a company frivolously >>



I don't really have an opinion on the Burning Coffee case because it is one of those things I have blocked out as being too much excess static... but, if I HAD been interested in the case, I would have done as much research on it as possible, and then I would have researched the research for accuracy! There are always con artists out there, looking for a way to take advantage of the system. The con could be the old lady, and the con could be the CEOs of Mc D's. Hard to say.

Everything has a level of risk. We have to make hundreds of decisions each day about which risks are acceptable and which ones are not. If we take a risk that we should know better about (like drinking while driving) and something bad happens, we are responsible.

Some situations are very hard to assess in terms of who took what risk and who pays for it. That's where the legal system steps in... :p

Personally, I think our court system needs an overhaul, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Are any of you lawyers? Do you have any idea of the large number of perfectly sound lawsuits that fail versus the extremely small number of frivolous suits (none of which have been mentioned) that have succeeded? The insurance companies have junk yard dogs that do nothing but drag trial lawyers through hell and back to get the money their clients deserve. I had to sue a woman who hit me when I was out on a bike ride. Her lawyer dragged the case out for four years. She was clearly at fault, didn't have a driver's license, and had struck me from behind.

Let's see some numbers for these frivolous cases. The whining of the Cato Institute is the class warfare of the rich industrialists and upper classes versus the common man. We have no tort liability problem, but we do have a problem with the average Joe supporting Daddy Warbucks when it is not in his interest to do so. Who among you will benefit from a reduction in these so-called frivolous lawsuits? I didn't think so. Do you really believe your insurance rates will drop? Did your cable bill drop with deregulation?

America gives broad access to the courts because Americans believe in justice and redressing harms. It's the same reason we naively send our boys to die in Bosnia, and every other God forsaken place on the globe. Many other countries are very cynical about this sort of thing. But they didn't grow up on the Lone Ranger, Superman, and The Waltons. You may want America to become like Greece, where very few harms are protected in courts, but I don't. If I'm hit by a drunk driver, I want to know the courts will do something about it.

These Libertarian ideas are stupid, dangerous, and inhumane, as Isla and GF have wisely intimated.

p.s.-Bernstein's piece is a polemic against democracy by a right wing zealot. He is known for his very conservative views. He's on the faculty at George Mason School of Law because he couldn't get a teaching job at a real law school.

 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Do I have to be a lawyer to know about the obscene amount of liability coverage that is required by myself, my doctor and contractors I hire, because of sue happy people in this country? Wherever did this reputation come from? I didn't just make it up!

I have to be careful about having a neighborhood kid help me with yard work for fear he'll twist his ankle and sue me for everything I've got. The city pools have had all diving boards removed. Why? Does this not effect me? It makes me sick and angry! It effects my life and my wallet. It's become a way of life in this country and it's sure nothing to be proud of.
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
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I think Chess has been living under a rock.....the number of frivolous lawsuits is huge!!! Here are couple of interesting numbers:

&quot;In the United States today, there are more lawsuits, involving more dollars in punitive damages, than in any other five countries combined. &quot;

&quot;There were roughly 50,000 lawsuits filed by prison inmates across America in 1993. In some states, nearly half of all civil suits are filed by prisoners. Writing in the March issue of The American Legion magazine, Steve Salerno notes that &quot;the flurry of prison lawsuits has far-reaching side effects.&quot; He argues that &quot;the bogus actions crowd out other types of claims, forcing people with legitimate complaints to wait many extra months for their day in court.&quot; The cost incurred by the states to defend against these spurious suits, an average of $50,000 a piece in some states, &quot;has a direct bearing on the number of new cases that are plea-bargained or shelved entirely because the legwork to pursue them is not considered cost-effective.&quot;

Who do you think is paying for these 50K a pop inmate lawsuits?...someone needs to do a little research before spouting off on something they don't understand......


Check out these lawsuits:
&quot;Three Yemeni men claiming to have ownership of Mars have sued NASA because of the Pathfinder landing. ?We inherited the planet from our ancestors 3,000 years ago,? say the men. ?Sojourner and Pathfinder... began exploring it without informing us or seeking our approval.? It's true, I sold this guy property on Jupiter. I only got a few thousand dollars because of the Methane gas problem and that fact that you'd die if you ever tried to move there. However, the contract is perfectly enforceable.

In Orlando, a lawsuit was filed against a rental car company by the estate of a woman who was killed in a car crash by an Irish drunk driver. The suit alleges that the rental car company should be liable for the woman?s death because the company ?either knew or should have known about the unique cultural and ethnic customs in Ireland which involve the regular consumption of alcohol at pubs as a major component to Irish social life.? The moral here... Do not rent to the Irish... Thank God I'm Italian.

A Los Angeles lawyer and self avowed ?deadhead? sued a fellow lawyer in his office for intentional infliction of emotional distress for joking about the death of Grateful Dead band leader Jerry Garcia. How could anyone afford law school after spending half their savings on pot?


Q: How do you know when deadheads have been staying with you?
A: They're still there.
Q: How do you know when they're gonna leave?
A: The phone bill comes.
Q: What do deadheads say when they run out of dope?
A: What is this awful music?


An Ohio man is suing for half a million dollars because he got hurt when he unexpectedly got a plain M&amp;M amongst his peanut M&amp;Ms. He claims he bit his lip and cut right through the skin and had to be treated at the hospital. He is suing both M&amp;M and the Family Dollar Store in Cleveland where he bought the bag for failing to inspect the candy and then selling what he calls defective and mislabeled merchandise. Obviously, this guy is related to the lady who had no idea her coffee would be served hot.

An Israeli man took his wife of two years to divorce court because she named her poodle after her ex-husband. He demanded the court order his wife to stop calling the dog by his name.

Canadian tourist Edward Skwarek has sued the Starbucks coffee chain for $1.5 million alleging that a highly personal part of his anatomy was crushed when it got caught between the toilet seat and bowl at a Manhattan Starbucks outlet. Skwarek was reportedly in a seated position on the commode. When he turned to retrieve the toilet paper, the seat shifted. His wife Sherrie is also demanding $500,000 as compensation for depravation of his husbandly services. Can I sue the local bar if nobody picks me up tonight?

An Ohio inmate sued for being denied possession of soap on a rope. Considering what they do to you when you drop the soap in prison, I don't think you should be requesting it.

A lady who got a bad hair cut sued the hair dresser for assault and battery. The hair dresser said, ``I was shocked by the severity of the lawsuit. I didn't cut off an arm or a leg, I just gave a bad haircut.''

An Arizona inmate sued when he was not invited to a pizza party that prison employees held for a guard leaving his job. You know, there were a lot of high school parties I was never invited to. Heather, I think you owe me some money. $100,000 should cover it. Don't worry, putting your kid through college just isn't that important.

A prison inmate sued the state of Colorado because he said, ``Everyone knows an inmate only serves about three years of a 10-year sentence.
Another Oklahoma inmate sued because he was forced to listen to country music. Now, if he had been forced to listen to Billy Ray Cyrus he might have won.

A man sued his mother for the cost of suing his repair truck. She filed a countersuit demanding the court give her son the whipping that she failed to give him as a child.

Outraged by a referee's call, several Washington Redskins fans filed a lawsuit in federal court demanding it be overturned.

The University of Michigan was sued for $853,000 by a disgruntled student who received an F in German. Right now if I could use this case as a precedent, I would be entitled to four times that much.

A San Quentin death row inmate sued California because his packages were sent via UPS rather than the U.S. Postal Service. Let's let this jerk take his complaint to an armed and disgruntled postal worker.

A Virginia inmate sued himself for $5 million because he got drunk and violated his religious beliefs causing him to commit a crime. Of course the inmate didn't have $5 million so he wanted the state to pick up the tab.

A convict who escaped from prison sued his county and the sheriff for negligence in allowing him to escape. Another convict sued his county and sheriff for the emotional stress he suffered while trying to escape. I'm sorry, did the big bad guards scare you when you were scaling the barbed wire.

A 9-year-old girl sued the makers of Cracker Jacks because her box contained no prize.

Two men sued a restaurant and won $18,000 because they were required to put on neck ties. I'll put on a clown suit for half that.
General Motors was sued for $6 trillion, that's $6,000,000,000,000, on behalf of all persons everywhere, born and unborn, and all future generations.

The National Parks Service was sued for $2.5 million when visitors to a federal park were struck by lightening. So weather men, be absolutely sure about yourself when you say it won't rain.

The city of San Carlos, California filed a lawsuit against Ryan McDonell, a kid who was hit by a city truck. The city wanted to recover the driver's medical expenses, workers compensation, and repairs to the truck. It's nice to know, that the government cares so much about our children.

Willie Johnson sued Mercury for inflating a car loan by $1,000. Though his damages were only $1,000 a jury awarded him, $90,000. They then fined Mercury with a $50 million fine, proving Jury's consist of 12 idiots who get paid $5 a day to make bad decisions because they can't find a real job.

Frank Menssina of Centerville, Pennsylvania sued the Pennsylvania Transportation Department for $5,764,609,563,143,700.48 for ruining his reputation as a driver by suspending his license. The national debt is smaller. What moronic trucker has an ego big enough to believe he'd make that much in a life time? Furthermore, how did he get such an exact figure? And would he be upset if he didn't get the 48 cents.

A special note: In a 5 to 4 ruling, the Supreme Court ruled in 1982 that the president cannot be sued. The threat of impeachment and the checks and balances of the constitution were enough to insure that he obeyed the letter of the law. Why don't citizens of the United States get similar respect when it comes to frivolous lawsuits? &quot;

 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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LOL jmman,

That story about the Canadian tourist getting his 'anatomy' crushed won that guy a nice satiric frontpage article in Canada's biggest newspaper. It made fun of him and the U.S. courts for even hearing the case. Sorry...this is OT but the case was really funny.

-GL
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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jmman - while that list is a great read, I recognize many of those cases from years back and I think that they ARE the minority by far of lawsuits. The prison ones, however, are a different story and I think they need to be addressed seperatly!

pamchenko:

<< GF, I expected this kind of sympathetic fluff from you. >>

(and many other fine quotes)
Do you enjoy being the board idiot? Honestly, you will never be taken seriously the way you constantly attack well liked members of this board.

 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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JMMAN:

You'd better check those numbers and don't take your social criticism from American Legion magazine. That's like reading the comics to understand dialectic materialism.

Assuming those bogus numbers are true, 50,000 lawsuits divided by 50 is 1,000 inmate lawsuits per state on average. Orange County, Florida, last year, had over 10,000 lawsuits filed in this one Florida County. We have over a thousand lawyers here! A thousand inmate lawsuits is a drop in the bucket. But yes, Congress passed a law last year, I believe, limiting the types of lawsuits inmates may bring, but the Writ of Habeas Corpus is a constitutional right for those guys and they use it and abuse it. Perhaps we should consider sending fewer people to prison. That would save a lot more of your precious tax money. Are you telling your representatives in Washington to stop throwing druggies in jail? I didn't think so.

Simply because a lot of lawsuits has been filed doesn't mean that a lot of frivolous lawsuits have been filed. We settle problems in this country through our courts. It is not the most efficient way of doing things and I would support more forms of arbitration, but it sure beats grabbing a gun and blowing someone's head off. Perhaps you should have been raised in Sicily and then you'd prefer the courts to having your daughter shot in your front yard because you p*ssed someone off.

I may be living under a rock, but I don't have rocks in my head.

Ornery:

No wonder they call you Ornery. Uh, no Republicans in Ohio who might have suggested that property and sales taxes were too high and county budgets too big and it was time, in the memorial words of the right wing, to &quot;take back our government&quot;? So your county can't afford to pay life guards to watch kids in the pool and can't afford to pay the extra insurance premium because the Republicans cut back spending? And now you're blaming the trial lawyers? Give me a break. Liability insurance is up because we have so many teenage life guards who sleep on the job, so many Firestones not taking care of business, so many Duponts producing Benlate, so many cigarette companies who think they should be able to sell their drug of choice, ad nauseum. Thank God for those million dollar judgements that send a huge message to the manufacturers. Produce a safe product or get out of Dodge! I'm all for it. I'd better never sit on one of those tobacco juries! The judgement check would have to be in scientific notation!

p.s.-I don't care for lawyers any more than the rest of you, but they aren't the problem. Greedy, irresponsible corporations are the problem. Greedy people don't mind killing you to make a buck.
 

HaVoC

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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<< Simply because a lot of lawsuits has been filed doesn't mean that a lot of frivolous lawsuits have been filed. We settle problems in this country through our courts. It is not the most efficient way of doing things and I would support more forms of arbitration, but it sure beats grabbing a gun and blowing someone's head off. Perhaps you should have been raised in Sicily and then you'd prefer the courts to having your daughter shot in your front yard because you p*ssed someone off. >>


chess9 I would have expected better logic from you. So the fact we have such a liberal tort system saves lives in your opinion, because we sue instead of shooting each other to death? That is absurd.

Your liberal ideals have blinded you from the truth. Tort reform IS a pressing issue. I don't dispute the fact that most plaintiff victories are just and legitimate. However, the unrestricted nature of our tort system allows for the mere threat of excessive lawsuits which can spread fear, limit innovation and practically restrict freedom. The point is that an unscrupulous trial lawyer in this country has a far greater chance of landing a &quot;lottery&quot; verdict on bogus claims or questionable scientific evidence in the US than in other industrialized nations.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Havoc:

No, we shoot each other AND sue each other. :) But we'd have a lot more killings if we didn't have a legal system that works pretty well.

To repeat, very few frivolous lawsuits succeed in our court system. Many meritorious lawsuits fail, for a variety of reasons, in our courts. I'm sure everyone knows someone who should have won a handsome victory in a civil lawsuit but didn't because of some legal quirk or witness who didn't show up, or because the lawyer did a lousy job. Anyway, the majority of civil cases are settled before trial, as mine was and the frivolous ones get thrown out by the judge or jury in 99.999% of the cases. This idea that everyone's getting rich on frivolous lawsuits is sheer nonsense. Laywers get rich because they win legitimate lawsuits based on contingency fee arrangements. This whole thread started with the mention of the McDonald's coffee verdict, which was a legitimate lawsuit brought, in part, to teach McDonald's to care a little more for their customers and recompense a poor old lady. (I digress here, but to my mind anyone who eats at McDonalds is completely wacko. If you want to die today either call the Marines or eat at McDonalds.)

This little political agenda of you right wingers is obviously intended to keep the little guy from getting what he justly deserves and preserve the hegemony of the big corporations and their &quot;right&quot; to give us trashy products.

Sorry, I ain't buying any of it.
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
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&quot;The whining of the Cato Institute is the class warfare of the rich industrialists and upper classes versus the common man.&quot; Ummm, spare me the populist rhetoric......simply the process of litigating a case, irregardless of outcome, puts a major strain on our legal system and ultimately our pocketbook. Don't get my wrong, I am not advocating scrapping our whole system, but simply implementing basic, commonsense, tort reform in order to eliminate some of the loopholes that have crept into the system.

Anyway, tort reform will prove to be a benefit to the common man. There is pending legislation in many states(both republican and democratic controlled) of a tort reform nature. If you don't like it Chess, feel free to go somewhere else, since it is going to happen regardless of your beliefs or mine.......
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
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&quot;Liability insurance is up because we have so many teenage life guards who sleep on the job...&quot;

It's up because this country is sue happy! Our pools are open but diving boards are removed because of law suits.

And there's another point about Firestone. People don't die because of blowouts. They die because they don't wear their seatbelts when their top heavy SUVs roll. Talk about Personal Responsibility. They chose to buy an SUV and chose to not wear a seatbelt. A blowout can happen to anybody at any time. But, may as well go after the deep pockets. That's what this topic is all about, isn't it?

shinerburke mentioned 8 examples and only the McDonalds one has been debated. And even that was BS if you want to dwell on small numbers. It was mentioned that 700 cases were filed about coffee burns in 10 years. Do you realize how many people didn't get burned in that time period? Billions and Billions of coffees sold and 700 complaints by klutzes.
 

Thorn

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,665
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<< These Libertarian ideas are stupid, dangerous, and inhumane, as Isla and GF have wisely intimated. >>


This coming from a lawyer. What a big surprise. :p

I'm sure Tort reform would take a big chunk out of your paycheck, wouldn't it?

Edit: ok, Chess9 PMed me and told me he's not a lawyer... but IMO, he's still wrong, though not quite as evil as I'd thought before. ;)

The litigious nature of our society is what's &quot;stupid, dangerous, and inhumane&quot;, get your facts right.


<< Simply because a lot of lawsuits has been filed doesn't mean that a lot of frivolous lawsuits have been filed. We settle problems in this country through our courts. >>


Yeah, and it costs way too much taxpayer $$$ and puts an undue burden on the system. But I guess all the legal special interest groups could care less... they just want the money.


<< No, we shoot each other AND sue each other. But we'd have a lot more killings if we didn't have a legal system that works pretty well. >>


No, we kill each other because our legal system doesn't work at all. If we actually punished our criminals (hard labor, no TV or comforts) we'd start making some progress. The criminal and litigious mind are one in the same. No personal responsibility.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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Ornery:

The number of cases FILED is probably 1% of the people burned by the coffee from McDonalds. If I had been burned I probably wouldn't have sued. Most guys won't.

Why aren't you guys bitchin about McDonalds and all the other irresponsible corporations? I assume you care about corporate responsibility, as much as you care about personal responsibility. But you folks never seem to think any corporation did anything wrong. When I hear guys like Buckley bemoaning the ethics of the pin striped crowd, then I'll give these arguments some credence. Until then, it is mere political ideology (pronounced idiot logic) When political solutions are driven by ideology, you get idiot logic. Libertarians are the worst at this sort of thing. :)