Performance bottleneck in my, soon to be, upgraded PC

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Sdiver2489
In that case, my friend was running a s939 AMD 4200+ X2 with 3 gigs of ram. There were three 1 gig sticks.

I am telling you, matched pairs haven't been required for quite some time, I believe since the time of RDRAM

Text

Note that only dual-channel DDR RAM modules have to be installed in pairs. You do not need to install DIMM (SDRAM or DDR RAM) modules in pairs. Modern motherboards are also often much more forgiving about which DIMM modules can be fitted - they do not all have to be of the same capacity. - A 64MB module can be installed with 128MB and 256MB modules.

Use the link you provided, and scroll down to the Crucial memory advisor. Then, select any Skt. 939 motherboard you know of, and select it. Once it loads the new page, under manufacturer specifications, scroll down to where it says "Do I have to install memory in pairs?" I did that for about 7 or 8 that I could think of off the top of my head, and not one of them said "No". Feel free to come back when you've found out that I know what I'm talking about.😉

 

[Sdiver2489]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: Sdiver2489
In that case, my friend was running a s939 AMD 4200+ X2 with 3 gigs of ram. There were three 1 gig sticks.

I am telling you, matched pairs haven't been required for quite some time, I believe since the time of RDRAM

Text

Note that only dual-channel DDR RAM modules have to be installed in pairs. You do not need to install DIMM (SDRAM or DDR RAM) modules in pairs. Modern motherboards are also often much more forgiving about which DIMM modules can be fitted - they do not all have to be of the same capacity. - A 64MB module can be installed with 128MB and 256MB modules.

Use the link you provided, and scroll down to the Crucial memory advisor. Then, select any Skt. 939 motherboard you know of, and select it. Once it loads the new page, under manufacturer specifications, scroll down to where it says "Do I have to install memory in pairs?" I did that for about 7 or 8 that I could think of off the top of my head, and not one of them said "No". Feel free to come back when you've found out that I know what I'm talking about.😉

They are trying to sell you on Dual channel performance. If you click the next link down on the the page it states to run in dual channel you SHOULD use matched pairs. That implies that it does not need to be done if you don't want dual channel.

You don't know what you're talking about because I have seen a board boot with 3 gigs of ram(3 x 1 gig). Sorry, it works.

From a MSI s939 motherboard manual:

Install at least one DIMM module on the slots. Each DIMM slot supports up to a maximum
size of 1GB. Users can install either single- or double-sided modules to meet their
own needs. Please note that each DIMM can work respectively for singlechannel
DDR, but there are some rules while using dual-channel DDR (Please
refer to the suggested DDR population table below). Users may install memory modules
of different type and density on different-channel DDR DIMMs. However, the same
type and density memory modules are necessary while using dual-channel DDR,
or instability may happen. Please refer to the following table for detailed dual-channel
DDR. Other combination not listed below will function as single-channel DDR.

If you need reassuring that this is actually correct...make a post. I am confident AT will back me up

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: LasseFJ
Exactly right Sdiver. Maybe it's overkill with a 8600, but what pains me is how much the 8600 would wait for other parts.. i guess i can live with a 70% performance loss if i can use the upgraded configuration...

Do you guys think it would be above or below 70%?

If you don't mind losing part of the performance of a new card, go for it. It isn't going to be anywhere near 70%, anyway. It will most likely be 25-30%, since the 8600's are so slow. <<That's going to depend alot on what games you're playing, also.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Sdiver2489
You don't know what you're talking about because I have seen a board boot with 3 gigs of ram(3 x 1 gig). Sorry, it works.

From a MSI s939 motherboard manual:

Install at least one DIMM module on the slots. Each DIMM slot supports up to a maximum
size of 1GB. Users can install either single- or double-sided modules to meet their
own needs. Please note that each DIMM can work respectively for singlechannel
DDR, but there are some rules while using dual-channel DDR (Please
refer to the suggested DDR population table below). Users may install memory modules
of different type and density on different-channel DDR DIMMs. However, the same
type and density memory modules are necessary while using dual-channel DDR,
or instability may happen. Please refer to the following table for detailed dual-channel
DDR. Other combination not listed below will function as single-channel DDR.

If you need reassuring that this is actually correct...make a post. I am confident AT will back me up

Umm, please explain to us all how he's going to install 4 DIMM's into a motherboard with 4 DIMM slots, and the motherboard isn't going to try to run it in dual-channel. Do that, and I'll stop arguing with you.😉

 

[Sdiver2489]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: Sdiver2489
You don't know what you're talking about because I have seen a board boot with 3 gigs of ram(3 x 1 gig). Sorry, it works.

From a MSI s939 motherboard manual:

Install at least one DIMM module on the slots. Each DIMM slot supports up to a maximum
size of 1GB. Users can install either single- or double-sided modules to meet their
own needs. Please note that each DIMM can work respectively for singlechannel
DDR, but there are some rules while using dual-channel DDR (Please
refer to the suggested DDR population table below). Users may install memory modules
of different type and density on different-channel DDR DIMMs. However, the same
type and density memory modules are necessary while using dual-channel DDR,
or instability may happen. Please refer to the following table for detailed dual-channel
DDR. Other combination not listed below will function as single-channel DDR.

If you need reassuring that this is actually correct...make a post. I am confident AT will back me up

Umm, please explain to us all how he's going to install 4 DIMM's into a motherboard with 4 DIMM slots, and the motherboard isn't going to try to run it in dual-channel. Do that, and I'll stop arguing with you.😉

Who said anything about 4 modules? 3 x 1 Gig would not follow your "matched pair" claim and would not run in dual channel. Motherboards generally detect if dual channel is possible and if not, run in single channel mode.

Seriously...post a thread asking this question.

Also, according to the crucial memory advisor you pointed out, DDR2 systems HAVE to be installed in matched pairs...which is definitely incorrect.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Sdiver2489

Originally posted by: myocardia
Umm, please explain to us all how he's going to install 4 DIMM's into a motherboard with 4 DIMM slots, and the motherboard isn't going to try to run it in dual-channel. Do that, and I'll stop arguing with you.😉

Who said anything about 4 modules? 3 x 1 Gig would not follow your "matched pair" claim and would not run in dual channel. Motherboards generally detect if dual channel is possible and if not, run in single channel mode.

A few 939 motherboards do this, but not many. However, we've been arguing all along about whether the OP will be able to run 1.75 GB of RAM, were we not? 1.75 GB of RAM is not possible with Skt. 939, period, end of discussion.

Originally posted by: myocardia
You can't run 3x512 MB plus 1x256 MB sticks with any A64. The amount of RAM has to be identical in each bank. You'll need either 4x256, 4x512, or 2x256 + 2x512. Of course, 2x1 GB would be much better. Anyway, your cpu will definitely be your bottleneck, once you have a real video card. You're going to have to learn to overclock, although nearly all DX10 games should perform significantly better with a dual-core processor.

Originally posted by: Sdiver2489
That's not true at all...

You only need mirrored pairs for dual channel operation

So, we're still waiting for you to explain to us all how he's going to install 4 DIMM's, and run them in single-channel mode.

 

[LasseFJ]

You guys seem to have a side question going in here... Maybe that should be posted in an entirely different post.

So you don't think 3x512 and 1x256 will work together? I don't know either, but from what i've heard 2x512 will run dual channel. Maybe they will keep running dual channel and the rest, (512 and 256), will run separate?

 

[LasseFJ]

By the way: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2747&p=4 was an excellent link to help me.

 

[yh125d]

those 4 sticks will run in any skt 939 board, but only in single channel. your mobo will default to single channel.

To Myocardia:
You can run 1, 2, 3, or 4 sticks in a skt 939 board. you need 2 or 4, with 2 matched pairs for dual channel, but if its single channel, it will run with any number of sticks or any size. I know this because my brothers computer is running at his house right now with 3 x 512, and 1 x 256.

 

[chinacherub]

I agree!

 

[LasseFJ]

what do you mean by "skt"?

 

[Aikouka]

Why buy a decent card yet leave your processor in a relatively gimped state?

What resolution do you intend to play in anyway?

 

[LasseFJ]

Above average detail in 1028x768 or something like that. I wan't to keep costs at a minimum, thats why i wan't to reuse my ram & cpu...

Btw, does anybody know if it's possible to buy a motherboard with support for Athlon dual core, while still supporting ancient pc3200 modules? I could buy a new dual core CPU and keep the ram..

 

[LasseFJ]

I've been considering : MSI K8N Neo4-F motherboard.

Then i can upgrade to a Athlon dual core from the single core later if its painfully slow

 

[betasub]

Originally posted by: LasseFJ
By the way: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2747&p=4 was an excellent link to help me.

Good. Then you'll understand that in recent graphics-intensive games the gfx card is the major factor. Your A64 3200+ is at the 2.0GHz mark on the x-axis, and in Dx9 games the 8600 cards are not much better than the 1800XL tested. In some circumstances (see Town Benchmark) a faster processor has some benefits, but gaming tends to be at its slowest when graphics-limited (see Oblivion Gate Benchmark) and that's when only a faster graphics sub-system will help.

Above average detail in 1028x768 or something like that. I wan't to keep costs at a minimum, thats why i wan't to reuse my ram & cpu...

Under these conditions, your CPU and the 8600GT are probably fairly well balanced.

what do you mean by "skt"?

skt = socket, as in socket 939 for your Athlon64 3200+.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: LasseFJ
Above average detail in 1028x768 or something like that. I wan't to keep costs at a minimum, thats why i wan't to reuse my ram & cpu...

Your CPU will make the most difference at that resolution. 1024x768 is very low resolution and not an area where you'll be maxing out your video card.

Originally posted by: LasseFJ
Btw, does anybody know if it's possible to buy a motherboard with support for Athlon dual core, while still supporting ancient pc3200 modules? I could buy a new dual core CPU and keep the ram..

As long as you buy a socket 939 CPU (the 3200+ venice Athlon 64) and a socket 939 motherboard, you should be able to upgrade. But, I don't know how long you'll be able to find Socket 939 A64 X2's in the channel. AMDs been good about replacing them with Socket AM2 processors.

 

[bob4432]

read the f*cking benchmarks people - the 8600 and 8500s are a joke. the 8600gt ~= 7600 w/ dx10 support.

for the price you would be better off to not worry about dx10 and get a x1950xt 256MB card that is pretty close or faster in certain games than a 7900gtx.

op, you seem to think that since a gpu is new it is faster, in this case you are wrong, plain and simple.

make your life easy and sell off the 1.75GB shamble of memory and pick up 2x1GB sticks or since ddr2 is so cheap make the move to a am2 3600, 2gb ddr2 667-800 and whatever m/b newegg is putting the cpu w/ - i think it is some biostar unit. this would actually be a better deal and probably cheaper in the long run than what you are currently trying to do.

and wanting % numbers is ridiculous because every situation will be different, so in 1 situation it may be 20%, another 10%, etc

 

[JimiP]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103052

I'd say that set up right there is a good start. Since the CPU is OEM, you'll have to provide your own HSF. The motherboard supports DDR-400 memory (Dual-Channel) and it has a single PCI-E slot.

 

[LasseFJ]

bob: i wasn't going for top performance anyways, and since 8600 benchmarks the same as a 7600, the 8600 might not even wait for the other system parts.

Selling off the ancient pc3200 ram modules wouldn't be worth it, as i can't take any money selling them, cause their so damn old...'

The setup you advised me to buy, would cost me double what i would pay for the suggested setup. It may be the smart thing to do in the long run, but i think im rather satisfied with upgrading the CPU later, and running with the slow ram...

 

[kalrith]

OP, is your cpu skt 754 or skt 939? I would assume it's 754 because of the AGP slot, but you said in a previous post that you were looking at an MSI skt 939 mobo (motherboard). If it is skt 754, then you're going to need a skt 754 mobo. Here's a link to Newegg's skt 754 mobos with a PCI-e x16 slot. None of them have 4 RAM slots, and this is the only one with 3 RAM slots. At least that would give you 1.5 GB of RAM.

If your CPU is skt 939, then you can just disregard this post.

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: LasseFJ
bob: i wasn't going for top performance anyways, and since 8600 benchmarks the same as a 7600, the 8600 might not even wait for the other system parts.

Selling off the ancient pc3200 ram modules wouldn't be worth it, as i can't take any money selling them, cause their so damn old...'

The setup you advised me to buy, would cost me double what i would pay for the suggested setup. It may be the smart thing to do in the long run, but i think im rather satisfied with upgrading the CPU later, and running with the slow ram...

i was taking into account you already moving to a dc, my bad. but remember - with the 939 x2s drying up they will actually go up in price and soon you will be able to buy them only inf the fs/ft section - look at the older athlong xp bartons - damn near the same price as a year ago especially for the elusive mobile versions.

same thing w/ the pc3200 - the prices are going up in the fs/ft section because the prices for it @ newegg are higher than ddr2 - it is all about supply and ddr is drying up too but there is still a lot of usage out there for it.

also, please don't buy a 8600gt for ~$180 when you can get a card that is a much better performer for nearly the same price - the x1950xt 256. the 8600gt is a joke of a card and nvidia should be punished for putting it out at its pricepoint.

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: kalrith
OP, is your cpu skt 754 or skt 939? I would assume it's 754 because of the AGP slot, but you said in a previous post that you were looking at an MSI skt 939 mobo (motherboard). If it is skt 754, then you're going to need a skt 754 mobo. Here's a link to Newegg's skt 754 mobos with a PCI-e x16 slot. None of them have 4 RAM slots, and this is the only one with 3 RAM slots. At least that would give you 1.5 GB of RAM.

If your CPU is skt 939, then you can just disregard this post.

kalrith- there were quite a few 939/agp setups around - excellent performers too - think about a x2 3800 o/c'd to 2.5GHz or a single core @ ~ 2.5GHz mixed w/ a x800xtpe/x850xtpe = excellent results on a agp platform 🙂

 

[mancunian]

Originally posted by: bob4432
read the f*cking benchmarks people - the 8600 and 8500s are a joke. the 8600gt ~= 7600 w/ dx10 support.

for the price you would be better off to not worry about dx10 and get a x1950xt 256MB card that is pretty close or faster in certain games than a 7900gtx.

op, you seem to think that since a gpu is new it is faster, in this case you are wrong, plain and simple.

make your life easy and sell off the 1.75GB shamble of memory and pick up 2x1GB sticks or since ddr2 is so cheap make the move to a am2 3600, 2gb ddr2 667-800 and whatever m/b newegg is putting the cpu w/ - i think it is some biostar unit. this would actually be a better deal and probably cheaper in the long run than what you are currently trying to do.

and wanting % numbers is ridiculous because every situation will be different, so in 1 situation it may be 20%, another 10%, etc

There's been a lot of crap posted in this thread, but the above is by far the soundest advice given here.