People should be sad when Fidel dies...

[eleison]

I was thinking about this: why do people really care if fidel dies? What would it matter if he lived for another thousand years? What harm has his little socialistic paradise done to the United States (post Cuban missile crises)?

He has done nothing to the US. Actually, being alive has kinda helped the US. First off, since his country is so poor, mostly the smart and dedicated people are able to leave the island. I know a few people who are US citizens now and I was really impress with them. The are really ambitious. Mostly the un-ambitious folks stay in cuba.. which in a way is a good thing because in the States, we already have enough un-ambitious folks.

Another thing is that all the people who really like socialism... well, they can just stay in Cuba.. you know with all the free health-care, price controls, government telling you what to do, equal salary, etc... everything that makes socialism so great.

The cool thing about Cuba is that all the people who don't like socialism... well, most of the time they can just leave the island too. Its not like in other places where there are civil wars, i.e., russia, china, etc.. being fought over the issue. Its all very peaceful. No one really gets hurts. The United States acts like a safety valve. People who hate socialism... well, they just leave to the United states.

Now after thinking about this and seeing how Venezuela is becoming like another Cuba. I was thinking.. who cares? What if Venezuela becomes another Cuba.. So what? Maybe oil prices maybe higher.. but I doubt it. Knowing how inefficient most socialist governments are, they would probably want to sell us there oil just to make money and pay for their socialist programs... where else are they going to get money?

Another thing is that I doubt there will ever be a civil war in Venezuela.. It will be like another cuba. Smart, ambitious people just leave. A lot of people are jittery right now, and its already happening. Most unambitious people will just stay because.. well, they're not very ambitious. Its works really well. Most people who likes socialism will stay in Venezuela also. Yea, for socialism!!

Its a win-win: the US gets smart people from Venezuela.. and Venezuela gets its socialistic paradise (with the food shortage, universal healthcare, redistribution of wealth, no huge income disparity.. etc.. basically, another Cuba 🙂

In any case, if I'm wrong in my thinking please correct me.

 

[EagleKeeper]

1) People who espouse socialisim the US (and complain about the US capitalsm) never seem to want to move to Cuba or Venezuela. Is it because they will not be willing to actually stand up for their beliefs or that they "feel" that they can do better by living in the capitalistic environment and working to change it.
From my view point, it is like they are filled with hot air. Capitalism may be bad but it is a head above socialism where they can not have what they currently have.

2) Chavez has the oil money to allow him to be more agressive in his attitudes.
Castro was under Russian control so the damage was limited. Chavez has no such counterbalance to his ideas.

 

[palehorse]

I think you REALLY need to research a bit more about the supposedly "peaceful" Castro regime...

here's a start... from the sometimes unreliable wikipedia:

Thousands of political opponents to the Cuban government have been executed, primarily during the first decade of his leadership; however, exact numbers are not known. Some Cubans labeled "counterrevolutionaries", "fascists," or "CIA operatives" have been imprisoned in extremely poor conditions without trial. Military Units to Aid Production, or UMAPs, were labor camps established in 1965 which confined "social deviants" including homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses in order to purge "counter-revolutionary" influences from certain segments of the population. These camps were closed in 1968 in response to international outcries. Professor Marifeli Pérez Stable, a former Castro supporter now living in the United States, reflected on the cost of the Cuban revolution: "[There were] thousands of executions, forty, fifty thousand political prisoners. The treatment of political prisoners, with what we today know about human rights and the international norms governing human rights ... it is legitimate to raise questions about possible crimes against humanity in Cuba."

so, if human rights violations in other parts of the world do not concern you, then I guess we can see why you don't care if he lives or dies...

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: eleison
I was thinking about this: why do people really care if fidel dies? What would it matter if he lived for another thousand years? What harm has his little socialistic paradise done to the United States (post Cuban missile crises)?

How about the damage he has done to the people of Cuba?

Cuba's per capital GDP is $3,900. That would make them around 117th in the world.
Compare that to other island nations: Bahamas $20,000 Trinidad and Tobago $14,000 Antigua $11,000 Grenada $8,000
Grenada is a wonderful comparison because we saved them from communism when Reagan invaded and took over and kicked out the Cubans.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union the standard of living for the people of Cuba has actually gone DOWN.
It amazes me how some people on here like to complain about the 'rich' all the time, but then think a place like Cuba is paradise because there are no rich. I think I would rather be a poor person in the US than an average person in Cuba.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
1) People who espouse socialisim the US (and complain about the US capitalsm) never seem to want to move to Cuba or Venezuela. Is it because they will not be willing to actually stand up for their beliefs or that they "feel" that they can do better by living in the capitalistic environment and working to change it.
From my view point, it is like they are filled with hot air. Capitalism may be bad but it is a head above socialism where they can not have what they currently have.

You make a great point. How many times have the anti-war people told us pro-war people that we should go sign up for the military since we support the war.
Maybe that should be our new motto for the socialists on here... If it is such a great system then move there yourself.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
1) People who espouse socialisim the US (and complain about the US capitalsm) never seem to want to move to Cuba or Venezuela. Is it because they will not be willing to actually stand up for their beliefs or that they "feel" that they can do better by living in the capitalistic environment and working to change it.
From my view point, it is like they are filled with hot air. Capitalism may be bad but it is a head above socialism where they can not have what they currently have.

You make a great point. How many times have the anti-war people told us pro-war people that we should go sign up for the military since we support the war.
Maybe that should be our new motto for the socialists on here... If it is such a great system then move there yourself.

like Alec Baldwin threatened to do if Bush won in 2000? alas, he's still here living the Hollywood dream... DOH!

 

[Schadenfroh]

It would be nice if Cuba accepts annexation into the US after Castro and crew die off, imagine how the Cuban sugar industry could help with domestic ethanol production.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
I think you REALLY need to research a bit more about the supposedly "peaceful" Castro regime...

so, if human rights violations in other parts of the world do not concern you, then I guess we can see why you don't care if he lives or dies...

Has there been mass executions presently??? I don't think so.. Things you are talking about happened in the 60's... a long time ago. The heart of the cold war.. Now it seems like Cuba is just a rinky dink little country were things don't happen too much. Yes, you might be put in jail for being anti-fidel. But I dont' think they execute you any more. Actually, I think they just stop capital punishment.

Also, I don't think there are too many human rights abuses anymore... anyone who hates Fidel.. They just leave...

So yes, cuba is rather peaceful right now. Actually, if I'm not mistake, there are even US citizens that vacation there (even though it is illegal)...

there are people in the world that always dream of an utopian, socialistic government. Let them have it.. why not? it doesn't hurt anyone.. yes, they may be poor, but who cares?

this is the same with Venezuela. A lot of the peoople voted for Chavez. If they want socialism that bad (or IMHO, if they are that ignorant), why not let them have it? Remember even in this forum, they are a lot of chavez apologist.. .so I say, why not? The smart, ambitious people will leave.. most of the time they will leave to the US, which is a good thing.. .We need smart people to immigrate here anyways...

 

[spittledip]

Venezuela has a history of civil wars, so it is not unlikely for them to have another one.

 

[Arglebargle]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
I think you REALLY need to research a bit more about the supposedly "peaceful" Castro regime...

here's a start... from the sometimes unreliable wikipedia:

Thousands of political opponents to the Cuban government have been executed, primarily during the first decade of his leadership; however, exact numbers are not known. Some Cubans labeled "counterrevolutionaries", "fascists," or "CIA operatives" have been imprisoned in extremely poor conditions without trial. Military Units to Aid Production, or UMAPs, were labor camps established in 1965 which confined "social deviants" including homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses in order to purge "counter-revolutionary" influences from certain segments of the population. These camps were closed in 1968 in response to international outcries. Professor Marifeli Pérez Stable, a former Castro supporter now living in the United States, reflected on the cost of the Cuban revolution: "[There were] thousands of executions, forty, fifty thousand political prisoners. The treatment of political prisoners, with what we today know about human rights and the international norms governing human rights ... it is legitimate to raise questions about possible crimes against humanity in Cuba."

so, if human rights violations in other parts of the world do not concern you, then I guess we can see why you don't care if he lives or dies...

While I am not a huge fan of Castro, it should be pointed out that the US tried to invade and overthrow his government in 1963. So it is not like Castro was worried about insubstantial boogeymen in that era. Revolutions are rarely bloodless, and we should not forget that ours was bloody and much property and life were lost, refugees fled, etc.

Also, Castro has lasted longer than any American enemy. Most of those end up fleeing to exile, or dead. The US has maintained an embargo against Cuba for 40+ years, and finances and trained terrorists and revolutionaries for the Anti-Castro movement, often against our very own laws. Castro is the Bete Noire of America. I do think that once Castro dies, even if the government were to carry on with the same governmental, that you would see this sudden change in American policy. Certainly we have supported regimes that were much worse than Castro.

American governments have generally preferred to have their dirty work done by proxys, to keep hands clean and deniability in place. You see this all through Central America starting from Guatamala in '54 all the way through '90's. Opression, local government death squads (often filled with SOA trained soldiers), supression of any peaceful means of change, all contributed to the death of the middle ground and extremism on both sides.

Castro's regime is not gloriously wonderful, I harbour no illusions about that. He did, however, do some postive things as well as the bad. He kicked organized crime out of their Vegas-style Havana. Education became available to many who would never have seen it. Much less racist attitude. I think he would have done much better by taking the muzzle of the Cuban people and allowing more change. But he was leader of a government under continuous assault of his gigantic beloved patriot neighbour for the length of his tenure. Doubtless tends to make your paranoia race. Though if they are out to get you, is it paranoia?

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: eleison
Has there been mass executions presently??? I don't think so..

Oh the ignorance!!!!
From NY Times 2003 Link

Bernardo Arévalo Padrón, an independent journalist jailed in November 1997 for comments in which he called President Fidel Castro a liar, was freed from a prison in eastern Cuba, friends said.

Only 6 years for calling Castro a liar, not to harsh I guess.

From Humanrightsfirst Link

In March 2003, 75 human rights advocates, independent journalists and librarians were arrested, tried, and sentenced to up to 28 years in prison in the most severe crackdown the island has seen in recent history. Many of the imprisoned dissidents were organizers of the Varela Project, a constitutionally-based civic initiative that collected signatures on a petition calling for a referendum on democratic reforms and respect for basic freedoms.

Call for a referendum on reform and go to jail...

From the committee to Protect Journalists link

Cuba ranked second, with 24 reporters, writers, and editors behind bars, most of them jailed in the country?s massive March 2003 crackdown on dissidents and the independent press. Nearly all of those on Cuba?s list had filed news and commentary to overseas Web sites. These journalists used phone lines and faxes, not computers, to transmit their reports; once posted, their articles were seen across the world but almost never in Cuba, where the government heavily restricts Internet access.

Think of it this way... if we lived in Cuba half the people on this board would be in jail for protesting the war or other policies of Bush, and Harvey would have been executed a long time ago for his 'Bush is evil' comments.
Cuba is a great place to live if you wish to be poor and don?t mind the lack of freedom of speech and the press.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eleison
Also, I don't think there are too many human rights abuses anymore... anyone who hates Fidel.. They just leave...

They sure do!
Two Cuban refugees drown after boat capsizes, authorities say
Flotilla to Honor Drowned Cubans
INVESTIGATION, REPORTS OF TUGBOAT DROWNINGS BEING STIFLED IN CUBA

excerpt:

In an apparent attempt to limit reports about the sinking of a Cuban tugboat in which dozens of would-be-refugees drowned, Havana has detained human rights activists trying to investigate the incident and increased jamming of Radio Marti.

The July 13 sinking of the tugboat -- stolen from the port of Havana by about 70 Cubans who planned to sail it to the United States -- continues to generate controversy and anger in the Cuban exile community and in Cuba.

Seven Cuban human rights activists trying to investigate the circumstances behind the incident were arrested this week in Havana, fellow monitors said. It was unclear Friday whether they were still being held.

Three of them -- Nelson Torres Pulido, Odilia Collazo Valdes, and Nelida Vera Perez -- were arrested just two blocks
from the U.S. Interests Section in Havana, said Ricardo Bofill, the Miami-based president of the Cuban Committee for Human Rights.

"It appears they were trying to take reports about the tugboat incident to the Interests Section," said Bofill.

The Cuban government says it is still investigating what happened when the tugboat 13 de Marzo went down seven miles off the Cuban coast, but it maintains the sinking was accidental and that those who stole the ship knew it was leaky when they began their exodus.

The few of the 31 survivors -- an estimated 40 died -- who have spoken publicly tell a different story. They recount an unnerving pursuit by Cuban tugboats that shot torrents of water from high-pressure hoses at their vessel and rammed it on all sides.

ya.. That Cuba is a swell place!

 

[eleison]

Hey, still no mass executions. If you want to live in a socialistic society, you got to play within the rules. One of which is you don't talk bad about the government, else you go to jail. Everyone knows this. How hard is it to comprend? If you don't like it, try to leave. There are many people that have.

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: eleison
Has there been mass executions presently??? I don't think so..

Oh the ignorance!!!!
From NY Times 2003 Link

Bernardo Arévalo Padrón, an independent journalist jailed in November 1997 for comments in which he called President Fidel Castro a liar, was freed from a prison in eastern Cuba, friends said.

Only 6 years for calling Castro a liar, not to harsh I guess.

From Humanrightsfirst Link

In March 2003, 75 human rights advocates, independent journalists and librarians were arrested, tried, and sentenced to up to 28 years in prison in the most severe crackdown the island has seen in recent history. Many of the imprisoned dissidents were organizers of the Varela Project, a constitutionally-based civic initiative that collected signatures on a petition calling for a referendum on democratic reforms and respect for basic freedoms.

Call for a referendum on reform and go to jail...

From the committee to Protect Journalists link

Cuba ranked second, with 24 reporters, writers, and editors behind bars, most of them jailed in the country?s massive March 2003 crackdown on dissidents and the independent press. Nearly all of those on Cuba?s list had filed news and commentary to overseas Web sites. These journalists used phone lines and faxes, not computers, to transmit their reports; once posted, their articles were seen across the world but almost never in Cuba, where the government heavily restricts Internet access.

Think of it this way... if we lived in Cuba half the people on this board would be in jail for protesting the war or other policies of Bush, and Harvey would have been executed a long time ago for his 'Bush is evil' comments.
Cuba is a great place to live if you wish to be poor and don?t mind the lack of freedom of speech and the press.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Arglebargle
While I am not a huge fan of Castro, it should be pointed out that the US tried to invade and overthrow his government in 1963. So it is not like Castro was worried about insubstantial boogeymen in that era. Revolutions are rarely bloodless, and we should not forget that ours was bloody and much property and life were lost, refugees fled, etc.

Perhaps you should study up on how George Washington treated prisoners captured during the Revolutionary War...

 

[Arglebargle]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: eleison
I was thinking about this: why do people really care if fidel dies? What would it matter if he lived for another thousand years? What harm has his little socialistic paradise done to the United States (post Cuban missile crises)?

How about the damage he has done to the people of Cuba?

Cuba's per capital GDP is $3,900. That would make them around 117th in the world.
Compare that to other island nations: Bahamas $20,000 Trinidad and Tobago $14,000 Antigua $11,000 Grenada $8,000
Grenada is a wonderful comparison because we saved them from communism when Reagan invaded and took over and kicked out the Cubans.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union the standard of living for the people of Cuba has actually gone DOWN.
It amazes me how some people on here like to complain about the 'rich' all the time, but then think a place like Cuba is paradise because there are no rich. I think I would rather be a poor person in the US than an average person in Cuba.

Gee, might the American embargo have something to do with that GDP. And this while we happily trade like a house afire with Vietnam and China. American dreams built on Communist labor. And would you really rather live in capitalist Haiti or communist Cuba?

Grenada was invaded to put down a violent coup inside the Communist government. At least we were able to claim we were asked to intervene by the Grenadan neighbors. And it was an easy victory. Also, if you read up more on it, things have not been all sweetness and light after the invasion. Actually it might be a good comparision, but probably not all in the way you intended. I'll look in to that.

Can't believe you later pulled out the old 'Love it or Leave it' trope.

 

[eleison]

Yes, bad things do happen when people try to leave. However, what should we do? Should we try to invade cuba? How many people will we kill to establish a "democracy" which they may or may not even like? Having a few people down is a lesser evil than having thousands killed because of an all out war/invasion/civil strifle, etc. Having people trying to escape is better than the alternative. For instance, in this case if the Cuban governemnt was really going to try and stop them, they would have used live rounds.. .50 cal cannons... instead when compared to what the government could have use, they used a freaking squirt gun.

Look at Venezuela. It is becoming more like Cuba. What should we do? Should we try to invade there too? Its up to the people. The majority voted for socialism and the odds are good, thats what they are going to get. They're descendants will have to live with it. Its not for use to decide what they want. As long as there are routes available for people who want to leave are able to leave, thats okay. Else, you get internal strifle which will utlimately kill more people.

Let them have their socialistic paradise... It doesn't harm us.. and the alternative are worse..

Originally posted by: palehorse74


The Cuban government says it is still investigating what happened when the tugboat 13 de Marzo went down seven miles off the Cuban coast, but it maintains the sinking was accidental and that those who stole the ship knew it was leaky when they began their exodus.

The few of the 31 survivors -- an estimated 40 died -- who have spoken publicly tell a different story. They recount an unnerving pursuit by Cuban tugboats that shot torrents of water from high-pressure hoses at their vessel and rammed it on all sides.

 

[Arglebargle]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Arglebargle
While I am not a huge fan of Castro, it should be pointed out that the US tried to invade and overthrow his government in 1963. So it is not like Castro was worried about insubstantial boogeymen in that era. Revolutions are rarely bloodless, and we should not forget that ours was bloody and much property and life were lost, refugees fled, etc.

Perhaps you should study up on how George Washington treated prisoners captured during the Revolutionary War...

Actually that sounds interesting. Any suggested links? Doesn't change the facts that most revolutions are violent affairs. Incremental change over time is a much better road, if the situation is not just intolerable.

The number of royalist refugees fleeing the new government was not small, and lots of their property were laid waste.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eleison
Hey, still no mass executions. If you want to live in a socialistic society, you got to play within the rules. One of which is you don't talk bad about the government, else you go to jail. Everyone knows this. How hard is it to comprend? If you don't like it, try to leave. There are many people that have.

Please say this post was a joke. You do realize if you are caught trying to leave they imprison or kill you. Do you think the Berlin wall was erected to keep the west out or their own citizens trapped?

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: Arglebargle

Grenada was invaded to put down a violent coup inside the Communist government. At least we were able to claim we were asked to intervene by the Grenadan neighbors. And it was an easy victory. Also, if you read up more on it, things have not been all sweetness and light after the invasion. Actually it might be a good comparision, but probably not all in the way you intended. I'll look in to that.

We invaded b/c we didn't want another Cuba to deal with. It was the rich minority elite who cried for help and who were holding the rest of the country under their grip. I met one of these people and actually had dinner with him. Very much an elitist. A hold-over from the colonial days.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Please say this post was a joke. You do realize if you are caught trying to leave they imprison or kill you. Do you think the Berlin wall was erected to keep the west out or their own citizens trapped?

The last time Cuba implemented capital punishment was in 2003. How many people have tried to escape within the last 4 years? If I recall correctly, they mostly will imprison you if you try to escape unless you commit a serious crime while trying to escape.. like kill someone.

If it is impossible to escape cuba, why do I know so many people from cuba and why is there sure a large Cuban population in florida? If you are smart enough, ambitious enough, IMHO, in all likelihood you will be able to leave Cuba.. and hopefully resettle in the states.. because that the type of immigrants that the US should have.

let the socialist have their hippie commun!!!! they aren't bothering anyone 🙂

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: Genx87

Please say this post was a joke. You do realize if you are caught trying to leave they imprison or kill you. Do you think the Berlin wall was erected to keep the west out or their own citizens trapped?

The last time Cuba implemented capital punishment was in 2003. How many people have tried to escape within the last 4 years? If I recall correctly, they mostly will imprison you if you try to escape unless you commit a serious crime while trying to escape.. like kill someone.

If it is impossible to escape cuba, why do I know so many people from cuba and why is there sure a large Cuban population in florida? If you are smart enough, ambitious enough, IMHO, in all likelihood you will be able to leave Cuba.. and hopefully resettle in the states.. because that the type of immigrants that the US should have.

let the socialist have their hippie commun!!!! they aren't bothering anyone 🙂

a) There is a large population in South Florida because
1) People have been leaving Cuba for the past 50 years

2) People do have children.

b) Why does Cuba make it so hard for people to leave?

c) Why is the average Cuban not allowed to interact with tourists.

 

[Lemon law]

Lets realize one INDISPUTABLE FACT----------Batista was CORRUPT.

For the average Cuban---Fidel has been infinitely better.

In contrast---US foreign policy has been total baseless---first of all we don't have a Cuban policy---we have a South Florida policy. Second---we do all we can to embargo and screw up the Cuban economy.
And then we say---see---communism does not work---and we just ignore that the Cuban government has perhaps the best medical care in the entire region.

But as the well to do that prospered under the corruption of Batista and who fled Cuba when Castro tool over are now dying off---we have second and third generation types in South Florida who may be amenable to a more rational Cuban policy.

The death of Castro will be an opportunity to improve relations---I hope the USA will not squander that
once in many generations chance. And for any who think the USA can just walk back in and take over,
get a clue---it won't happen.----the road to better US Cuban relations will not be paved by demonize Fidel.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Arglebargle
Actually that sounds interesting. Any suggested links? Doesn't change the facts that most revolutions are violent affairs. Incremental change over time is a much better road, if the situation is not just intolerable.

NPR has done some great on-air stories on the subject. This is from their site:

After crossing the Delaware and winning the Battle of Trenton on Christmas Day, 1776, George Washington famously ordered his troops to give refuge to hundreds of surrendering Hessian soldiers. "Treat them with humanity," Washington instructed his lieutenants, noting that accepting the German mercenaries as prisoners of war wasn't just the right thing to do, it might even sway them to abandon their British paymasters and join the American side in the War of Independence. "Let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British army."

The stories generally describe the level of care given to the British troops... so much so that they were extremely well-behaved throughout the war. They were often very surprised at how well they were treated. The same cannot be said of Americans captured by the British... the wounded went untreated, and many starved or froze to death on the spot where they were captured.

Anyways, general reading about the Rev War will give you a decent idea of how Washington treated them...

ELEISON> how can you use the word "paradise" to describe a place wherein it's forbidden to leave; and, if you try, they will kill or imprison you without a second thought...?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: eleison

.. who cares?

Your point seems to be that they are not very important to the USA. I agree.
------------------------

What would happen if Cuba became "free"? A lot of real estate development (yah!, more beachfront) and tourism. So what? Aren't there enough "Caribbean Playgrounds"? How could it possibly affect the USA in any significant way?

Sugar, we already subsidize that US industry heavily. Plus, I thought the USA efforts were to REDUCE sugar consumption. Don't see much here.

Coast Guard might have less to do.

Fern

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: palehorse74


ELEISON> how can you use the word "paradise" to describe a place wherein it's forbidden to leave; and, if you try, they will kill or imprison you without a second thought...?

They will not in general kill you. I agree they might imprison you for a little bit, but that is all.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9908/04/cuba.exiles/index.html?eref=sitesearch

If Cuba is so bad, why do people want to come back.. even if its is to visit their families. Cuba stopped executions in 2001. They did execute a couple people in 2003 because the people committed armed robbery while stealling a boat. But in general, they don't execute people anymore.

I don't understand why people hate Castro so much? He does have benefits. He did create a socialistic "paradise"... I use the word "paradise" sarcastically. If there are people who want this paradise, let them have it....