People grow up and stop believing in Santa Claus

[Moonbeam]

Why wouldn't it be? The set of morals that are (generally) accepted by most societies greatly contributes to the functioning of society and are values that in a broad sense make our lives better and easier to live. Maybe you are confusing atheism with nihilism?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe we created our gods as the arbiters and enforcers of these morals instead of the other way around? Seems like they would be an awfully handy tool for that.

Or maybe we created these Gods as a reflection of who we can become, who we really are without our self hate.

Remember that the reason this deep truth is hidden from you and the world is that it lies on the other side of hell, that you have go go through the Inferno to find it, that you have to know and feel your self hate to truly see you were deeply deceived as to who you are by put downs as a child.

 

[slightlyhuman]

fail thread. good job OP.

 

[Jeff7]

It's considered normal to some day realize that Santa Claus isn't real; so why do people continue to believe in religion? It has the same degree of implausibility as believing in Santa Claus, yet people take the make believe seriously?

"Grow up kid, give up your imaginary friend already. I mean come on, you can't see him, he can't talk back, and he can't effect change in this world. But God is totally different in all those respects........yeah."
:awe:


Praise Elvis!

 

[Kadarin]

With no God there is no rational basis for morality.

I do not believe in a "God" or any higher power. Does this make me an amoral sociopath without conscience? No.

I consider myself to be a moral person based on the simple idea that I treat others as how I wish to be treated, and would like others to do the same. My belief is that doing so will generally make our lives more pleasant than if we didn't. And self-interest is definitely rational.

You fail because you cannot see outside your own belief.

 

[Zstream]

I do not believe in a "God" or any higher power. Does this make me an amoral sociopath without conscience? No.

I consider myself to be a moral person based on the simple idea that I treat others as how I wish to be treated, and would like others to do the same. My belief is that doing so will generally make our lives more pleasant than if we didn't. And self-interest is definitely rational.

You fail because you cannot see outside your own belief.

So once again it is about "I" this and "I" that. You believe that no one should set rules or regulations outside of what "You" feel is right. Who says that your definition of treating someone makes the life good or bad? Are these not the same arguments that you try to shove down to all the religious individuals?

Why is is that you fail to understand your own arguments?

 

[totalnoob]

You believe the Church or whomever puts limits are restraints on what you believe is fun.

I could go on a list of things which I bet you are OK with. In fact any rule or regulation brought down by anyone with a religious authority you would rebel against it.

Reason for you doing this? Plain and simple, no one should judge you. No one should put a limit on your "free" spirit.

Zstream, as far as I'm concerned, nobody has the right to prescribe any rules or regulations regarding the behavior of consenting adults (in the bedroom OR the boardroom). All these interventions are authoritarian in nature and religion is just a particularly ugly form of statist oppression. Its leaders claim authority not by engaging in reasoned debate and obtaining a democratic majority, but from a "divine" source that only they have access to..one that is beyond question. They never say "I'm right, you're wrong..Let me show you the reasons why". With religion it's simply "I'm right. This ancient book says so. Agree and obey or be damned".

If you want to be an agent of the great cosmic dictator, that's your choice..but stay out of other people's business please. Those of us who oppose religious nonsense don't do it because we want to be immoral. We do it because we want to be FREE.

You believe that no one should set rules or regulations outside of what "You" feel is right. Who says that your definition of treating someone makes the life good or bad?

There are certain behaviors conducive to human life and happiness, and others that are detrimental to both. Believe it or not, it is perfectly possible to develop a rational code of ethics that does not come from a talking shrub.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Nice troll PJ. Go back to bed.

His post was a troll? Put down the pipe. This thread is one, as if you didn't know.

 

[soccerballtux]

Why wouldn't it be? The set of morals that are (generally) accepted by most societies greatly contributes to the functioning of society and are values that in a broad sense make our lives better and easier to live. Maybe you are confusing atheism with nihilism?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe we created our gods as the arbiters and enforcers of these morals instead of the other way around? Seems like they would be an awfully handy tool for that.

Why would we create them? What is the need for them? What is the need for morals? Why does it matter if society survives or if we all kill eachother out of selfishness to steal what our neighbor has. In atheism, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if society survives or we devolve into the basest of animals and steal rape pillage and murder on a whim.

 

[soccerballtux]

I do not believe in a "God" or any higher power. Does this make me an amoral sociopath without conscience? No.

I consider myself to be a moral person based on the simple idea that I treat others as how I wish to be treated, and would like others to do the same. My belief is that doing so will generally make our lives more pleasant than if we didn't. And self-interest is definitely rational.

You fail because you cannot see outside your own belief.

Self interest is rational and great you're right.
But you cannot make an argument for why _I_ should behave the same as you. If what I want differs from what you want, the only appeal you can make is to one of force-- that you have the power to sentence me to death if want to murder someone.

I am not saying you are a- or im-moral. I am saying that your morality does not have a basis in the atheistic worldview. All you can base it on is your preference. If mine or Hitler's is different, who is to say I'm wrong? There is no wrong in atheism. Only desire. Only emotion.

 

[El Guaraguao]

"When I was a kid I used to pray to God for a bike. ... So I stole a bike, and prayed to God for forgiveness." - Emo Phillips

kthnxbye.

 

[Jeff7]

Self interest is rational and great you're right.
But you cannot make an argument for why _I_ should behave the same as you. If what I want differs from what you want, the only appeal you can make is to one of force-- that you have the power to sentence me to death if want to murder someone.

I am not saying you are a- or im-moral. I am saying that your morality does not have a basis in the atheistic worldview. All you can base it on is your preference. If mine or Hitler's is different, who is to say I'm wrong? There is no wrong in atheism. Only desire. Only emotion.

Do tell, what is your idea of the "atheistic worldview"?

Why would we create them? What is the need for them? What is the need for morals? Why does it matter if society survives or if we all kill eachother out of selfishness to steal what our neighbor has. In atheism, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if society survives or we devolve into the basest of animals and steal rape pillage and murder on a whim.

Edit: Ok, nevermind, I saw this post farther up.

Yup, we atheists simply love killing on a whim, because that's what people do without the imaginary magic skyman watching us all the time.

Your church has brainwashed you well.

 

[Atreus21]

really? So you sit next to all these death beds and can make a statement like that?

Spirituality is hard wired into our evolution, religion is the control of that. A creature self aware of its own death but with no concept of a greater purpose would go insane.

Very interesting point, and I'm surprised that you don't see the question it begs. Why do we feel the presence of something greater, or the need of something greater?

What other innate, deep desires do we have that have no satisfaction which corresponds to them? Hunger has food, sexual desire has sex, curiosity has knowledge. Doesn't it follow that the desire for something beyond this world might correspond to the existence of something beyond this world?

 

[Atreus21]

Do tell, what is your idea of the "atheistic worldview"?



Yup, we atheists simply love killing on a whim, because that's what people do without the imaginary magic skyman watching us all the time.

Your church has brainwashed you well.

Quite the contary. The only reason atheists don't kill on a whim is precisely because they believe in something greater than themselves, which is contrary to their way of thinking. If there isn't a God, then anything is permissable. Why then do atheists follow the rules?

 

[El Guaraguao]

Quite the contary. The only reason atheists don't kill on a whim is precisely because they believe in something greater than themselves, which is contrary to their way of thinking. If there isn't a God, then anything is permissable. Why then do atheists follow the rules?

Are you serious? Come on, atheist or not, nobody wants to go to prison.

 

[Atreus21]

Are you serious? Come on, atheist or not, nobody wants to go to prison.

So? I'm bigger, stronger, and smarter than you or any earthly authority. Let's assume that. Why should I obey the rules?

 

[El Guaraguao]

Doesn't matter if you're bigger, stronger, smarter, allergic to cheese, have aids and drives a 84 Civic. If youre looking to go to prison, go on a killing spree. If we let god sort out murderers and rapist, we, as humans, wouldn't need a prison.

 

[Atreus21]

Doesn't matter if you're bigger, stronger, smarter, allergic to cheese, have aids and drives a 84 Civic. If youre looking to go to prison, go on a killing spree. If we let god sort out murderers and rapist, we, as humans, wouldn't need a prison.

I think you missed my point. Your sole reason for not misbehaving is because of the consequences of being caught. what if you won't get caught?

 

[El Guaraguao]

I think you missed my point. Your sole reason for not misbehaving is because of the consequences of being caught. what if you won't get caught?

What if I don't get caught? Well, I got lucky. Or maybe I was smart enough not to get caught

All I know is that I don't have to worry about "my afterlife". Afterlife as in being resurrected, gaining eternal life and spending in satans BBQ for accidently "stealing" a pen from the bank.

 

[Jeff7]

Do you even know the definition of God? Means he has no beginning or end, making your argument null.

And where does this definition come from?

Quite the contary. The only reason atheists don't kill on a whim is precisely because they believe in something greater than themselves, which is contrary to their way of thinking. If there isn't a God, then anything is permissable. Why then do atheists follow the rules?

Contrary to our way of thinking? Your church has apparently indoctrinated you with some pretty silly ideas about anyone who doesn't fear/love/whatever your deity.
Atheists can believe in things greater than themselves, like the overall state and wellbeing of humanity itself.

Or, let's look at the options under the "atheists are purely selfish" perspective:
1) Chaotic Anarchy: Every man for himself. The individual reigns absolute and supreme. Life is short and brutal. That doesn't sound especially ideal.
2) Some form of social order. Individuals are given limitations, with the understanding that it is to improve overall quality of life. Order exists, civility can exist, technology can develop, lifespans can be increased, and so on.

#2 sounds like it's very much in everyone's best interests, both for the group and the individual, if they only refrain from acting like animals. No deity required. Just patience.

Granted, some people will invariably be greedy, and need to have more than everyone else, at the expense of the group. That'll happen regardless of what organizational structure you have in place, whether it be secular or theological in origin.

 

[soccerballtux]

Do tell, what is your idea of the "atheistic worldview"?




Edit: Ok, nevermind, I saw this post farther up.

Yup, we atheists simply love killing on a whim, because that's what people do without the imaginary magic skyman watching us all the time.

Your church has brainwashed you well.

Common guys listen to me, I'm not saying you love to kill on a whim.

What I _said_ was that in an atheistic worldview, it is not illogical to kill on a whim because you feel like it. Because, in an atheistic worldview, there is no foundation for ethics-- there is only a nebulous "because it's better for society", even though it doesn't matter if society survives or not.

 

[soccerballtux]

What if I don't get caught? Well, I got lucky. Or maybe I was smart enough not to get caught

All I know is that I don't have to worry about "my afterlife". Afterlife as in being resurrected, gaining eternal life and spending in satans BBQ for accidently "stealing" a pen from the bank.

It's less the act of stealing and more a general desire to rebel against God that causes us to be condemned. That is the real problem.

 

[soccerballtux]

Atheists can believe in things greater than themselves, like the overall state and wellbeing of humanity itself.

Why does this matter? Why does the progression of humanity matter?

That doesn't sound especially ideal.

So? Why does it matter if it's ideal? Ideal according to who? The universe and everything else doesn't care what is ideal for humanity or not.

Order exists, civility can exist, technology can develop, lifespans can be increased, and so on.

See above. Does not matter if any of these things happen or not. They are nice for us, but whether or not our species survives does not matter. There is no evolutionary need for us to survive. Our need to survive is assumed. To pass on our genes, to reproduce-- why does it matter if we reproduce or not, if we survive? It doesn't.

No deity required.

No deity required to act this way but there _IS_ a deity required to explain why we prefer it to be this way and why we consistently choose to erect societies where these morals are upheld. Survival of the society is not an explanation, because as I have already shown, survival of society does not matter to the universe or anything for that matter. There is no need for us to survive that evolution can fill/meet in an atheistic worldview.

What you all will no doubt realize is that in spite of these arguments, you still prefer a world without God. This is our sin, that we prefer to make our own way; when God has shown a path to life and meaning and fullness of joy that is freely offered to all if we will admit our rebellion, repent, and ask for forgiveness.

 

[JD50]

This.

Is Barack Obama your President? He's just like us crazy right wingers that believe in God.

 

[JD50]

Are you serious? Come on, atheist or not, nobody wants to go to prison.

Are YOU serious? Do you think an Atheist would kill or rape someone if they knew they wouldn't get caught?

 

[JD50]

What if I don't get caught? Well, I got lucky. Or maybe I was smart enough not to get caught

All I know is that I don't have to worry about "my afterlife". Afterlife as in being resurrected, gaining eternal life and spending in satans BBQ for accidently "stealing" a pen from the bank.

The bible doesn't say that you'd go to hell for "accidentally stealing a pen" from anyone.