People grow up and stop believing in Santa Claus

[Oceandevi]

Can we get back to discussing the carbon footprint of santa's operations?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Ya so what you want to know about SATAN CLAWS . He aint real get a grip . Which Only lead to God ain't real Which lead to Good Vs. Evil . End of the story

 

[Lonbjerg]

Can we get back to discussing the carbon footprint of santa's operations?

Carbon is irrelevant other factos influence the climate more, including other tracegasses...and watervapor is a factor of 50-80%.
During the iceage in the Ordovician there CO2 levels where +4000ppm.
Today the number is 385.99 ppm.

What is relevant are both the solar activity and the solarsystems orbit around the Milkyway.

I am anxious to see what CLOUD at CERN brings to the table.

Oh...and I don't believe in Santa ^_^

 

[totalnoob]

Ya so what you want to know about SATAN CLAWS . He aint real get a grip . Which Only lead to God ain't real Which lead to Good Vs. Evil . End of the story

Is it possible for you to make a coherent post?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Is it possible for you to make a coherent post?

OK Its a small sentance If thats what ts called LOL. What part of it don't you understand . I will take time to help ya with it. Is it the ain't the run om or what . This not not grade school . I am not being graded by you or anyone else.

I am sure that your grammer spelling is perfection. That nice for you but I don't care about that at all .

But what is of concern to me is your being judgemental . May I ask who gave you authority to judge. Be careful on this . OK its something you do not want to do . Every judge will be judged as they judge.

 

[Atreus21]

That's ridiculous. This thread is very illuminating because the christians posting in it have some extremely strange ideas as to how atheists think. Maybe you guys should do less telling in these threads and more listening.

People do not need god to tell them to be good to one another any more than any other animal needs god to.

Very well, then you've invoked my question. Why do you conduct yourself as a human, and not as any other animal? In other words, why should there be any distinction between humans and animals?

The Christian reason for this is the Incarnation: God himself came among us as a human, placing a direct link between humanity and divinity, which is the most startling statement in history to us. It sets humans apart from the rest of creation.

It is this fact that makes human lives precious at least to Christians, and is largely the premise from which we derive our morality.

Altruism and goodness to others is pervasive throughout many social animals throughout the animal kingdom, and I doubt that each one of them is doing it to impress jesus or because a corresponding gorilla, orangutan, or vampire bat was crucified for their sins.

You guys seem to be trying to cram the evidence into your perception of how the world must work instead of the other way around, and the evidence is right in front of you. While you can never prove a negative, I am about as certain as it is possible to be that there is no god. I find the evidence for one nonexistent, and that there is no need for one anyway. Yet I do not go around raping, pillaging, and murdering. I take satisfaction in my life. I feel a sense of purpose, I am kind to my friends and neighbors, and I pet puppies when I see them.

Maybe you should be asking me or yourself why and how others accomplish this instead of arrogantly telling me that you know how I should feel.

I'm only challenging the atheist's basis for morality. That's all.

I simply ask what your restraints are, and why you adhere to them.

 

[Sclamoz]

Very well, then you've invoked my question. Why do you conduct yourself as a human, and not as any other animal? In other words, why should there be any distinction between humans and animals?

Humans are animals. We act like humans because we are humans and not any other kind of animals.

The Christian reason for this is the Incarnation: God himself came among us as a human, placing a direct link between humanity and divinity, which is the most startling statement in history to us. It sets humans apart from the rest of creation.

So before Jesus came Humans were no different then animals but afterwords we are?

It is this fact that makes human lives precious at least to Christians, and is largely the premise from which we derive our morality.

I'm only challenging the atheist's basis for morality. That's all.

I simply ask what your restraints are, and why you adhere to them.

Well to start off your morality and beliefs are not divine and therefore not any more valid than an atheist's or anyone else for that matter. As I said earlier:

Religion and morality are completely separate things. We are taught right and wrong by society and society enforces these. The idea of whats right and wrong varies between societies and changes over time. If you went back in time to the middle ages you would find your interpretation of Christianity, right and wrong, and your bible to be completely different then everyone else. It's likely you would be considered immoral to them.

 

[ebaycj]

The Christian reason for this is the Incarnation: God himself came among us as a human, placing a direct link between humanity and divinity, which is the most startling statement in history to us. It sets humans apart from the rest of creation.
...

How do you know there wasn't a Chimpanzee Jesus born 2000 (or so) years ago?

 

[ebaycj]

It is this fact that makes human lives precious at least to Christians, and is largely the premise from which we derive our morality.

I'm only challenging the atheist's basis for morality. That's all.

I simply ask what your restraints are, and why you adhere to them.

Well to start off your morality and beliefs are not divine and therefore not any more valid than an atheist's or anyone else for that matter. As I said earlier:

Religion and morality are completely separate things. We are taught right and wrong by society and society enforces these. The idea of whats right and wrong varies between societies and changes over time. If you went back in time to the middle ages you would find your interpretation of Christianity, right and wrong, and your bible to be completely different then everyone else. It's likely you would be considered immoral to them.

Agreed.

I would also add, that religion often has a fairly large influence on society's morality. But it is definitely society, in the end, that sets and "enforces" morality.

 

[Nemesis 1]

You guys would do well to understand what this man is saying here.

Heres what he said . Of course its abit more complicated than this but these are true words.

The Christian reason for this is the Incarnation: God himself came among us as a human, placing a direct link between humanity and divinity, which is the most startling statement in history to us. It sets humans apart from the rest of creation.

 

[fskimospy]

Very well, then you've invoked my question. Why do you conduct yourself as a human, and not as any other animal? In other words, why should there be any distinction between humans and animals?

The Christian reason for this is the Incarnation: God himself came among us as a human, placing a direct link between humanity and divinity, which is the most startling statement in history to us. It sets humans apart from the rest of creation.

It is this fact that makes human lives precious at least to Christians, and is largely the premise from which we derive our morality.



I'm only challenging the atheist's basis for morality. That's all.

I simply ask what your restraints are, and why you adhere to them.

My basis for morality is the evolved innate sense of altruism and sociability that every human is born with (or nearly every human), and how it is reflected in how our society teaches people to behave. There is a reason why the vast majority of societies that have ever existed have had startlingly similar moral codes whether or not they have had any exposure to the bible whatsoever. Since the bible was written by men in fact, I view it as simply an enforcement mechanism for this innate morality that every person already has. Our innate morals created biblical morality, not the other way around.

For an interesting read on this subject I would suggest (as I have suggested before on here) a book called 'Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals' by Frans de Waal.

 

[soccerballtux]

If you believe the bible is absolute, then why aren't we killing children who disobey and disrespect their parents? There are at least 3 passages in the bible that say this must be done. Why aren't we stoning men who work on the sabbath (as God himself commanded)? Why don't Christians advocate the death penalty for homosexuals today? (Leviticus 20:13) All of these punishments are prescribed in your holy book..but thankfully most Christians no longer accept this sort of barbaric nonsense.

Because we live under a law not of fear but of grace.
I would encourage you to study these passages more. If you quote a sentence without giving the context of the whole story then of course you come away with crazy conclusions like the one you're making now-- that every single one of the laws that God gave the Israelites back then apply to all of us now today.

The fact of the matter is that every single one of us deserves the death penalty, homosexual or not. It is God's grace that he does not demand of us immediately what we owe-- our lives-- it is his grace that he gives us time to repent and choose him.

 

[soccerballtux]

That's the whole point. There are no absolutes. There is no "Right" and there is no "Wrong". There is only "what most of us agree is Right" and "what most of us agree is Wrong".

Moral codes are personal things derived by each person, with their own logic, and their own view of the world, and their own experiences shaping their definitions of "Right" and "Wrong". Societies are then formed by commonalities in moral codes (e.g. the people who all agree that killing, stealing, cheating and raping are all wrong but adultery is OK, would all likely end up living together eventually).

So there's nothing wrong with raping someone?

 

[soccerballtux]

Atheists don't feel the need to "matter" to anything more than ourselves and our human (and other living) companions on this planet.

In Atheism, our reason to exist is to know the Earth's goodness (all the different sensations life has to offer the synapses), enjoy it, and continue doing so. We also care for our familial and non-familial companions, so we would also like them to know the same, if they so desire.

Not good enough. That need can't be evolved, because it leads to nothing, if all we are is evolved bacteria. We die, end of story. There is no need to exist, that evolution can evolve a "satisfaction in existing" to meet.

 

[soccerballtux]

And yes, in atheism, there can be a foundation for morality, but trying to tell you that is like leading a brick to water and expecting it to make hot chocolate.

Nobody's been able to explain it sufficiently yet. At least ebaycj has manned up enough to admit this and to become completely consistent with his Atheism.

 

[soccerballtux]

My basis for morality is the evolved innate sense of altruism and sociability that every human is born with (or nearly every human)

You must prove the evolutionary need for this first, before you can assume that is why we conduct ourselves the way we do.
The "evolutionary need" you say is so that the society can continue to exist.
You incorrectly assume society continuing to exist matters-- it does not.
There is no need for society to continue existing-- it makes no difference to the members of society whether or not we exist or not, or whether our lives are simple and easy, or harsh because we all decide to steal from and murder each other on a whim. The end result is the same either way-- we all end up dead.

 

[Nemesis 1]

You must prove the evolutionary need for this first, before you can assume that is why we conduct ourselves the way we do.
The "evolutionary need" you say is so that the society can continue to exist.
You incorrectly assume society continuing to exist matters-- it does not.
There is no need for society to continue existing-- it makes no difference to the members of society whether or not we exist or not, or whether our lives are simple and easy, or harsh because we all decide to steal from and murder each other on a whim. The end result is the same either way-- we all end up dead.

Fellow I hope you do not claim to be a Christian because your the worst I have seen in awhile.

FOR you one more time. Try this time to comprehend .

This is no game I am playing here .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzMeaICn9m8&feature=related

 

[ebaycj]

So there's nothing wrong with raping someone?

I would say there is a lot wrong with raping someone. But that's my opinion.

 

[soccerballtux]

There is also no rational basis for morality in Christianity, since it is just a story written by bored camel herders to keep themselves entertained.

If we assume what the bible says-- the existence of God and the bible-- a book from him about himself and his character, then there is plenty rational basis for morality. His character is good, and we live to reflect it to others that they know his goodness as well. According to the bible, this matters because we matter, because we are "made in his likeness"-- made in his image-- we are creative, complex beings; the pinnacle of creation. Common sense tells you this, that we are of more worth than the animals. This is why it matters that we do not murder eachvother. In atheism, we do not matter. Not in the least. No more than an ant. Not at all.

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."--that's from Romans 1

Look at the inherent beauty and glory of a mountain covered in trees on a cool fall morning-- God is artistic and real. Everything in his creation attests to his glory.

http://www.mlewallpapers.com/image.php/id/Orange-and-Yellow-Fall-Trees-444.jpg

 

[ebaycj]

Fellow I hope you do not claim to be a Christian because your the worst I have seen in awhile.

FOR you one more time. Try this time to comprehend .

This is no game I am playing here .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzMeaICn9m8&feature=related

Nice !

 

[ebaycj]

If we assume what the bible says-- the existence of God and the bible-- a book from him about himself and his character, then there is plenty rational basis for morality. His character is good, and we live to reflect it to others that they know his goodness as well. According to the bible, this matters because we matter, because we are "made in his likeness"-- made in his image-- we are creative, complex beings; the pinnacle of creation. Common sense tells you this, that we are of more worth than the animals.

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."--that's from Romans 1

Look at the inherent beauty and glory of a mountain covered in trees on a cool fall morning-- God is artistic and real. Everything in his creation attests to his glory.

http://www.mlewallpapers.com/image.php/id/Orange-and-Yellow-Fall-Trees-444.jpg

Why the fuck would I start with that obviously wrong assumption, then base everything that I believe in off of that ? You cannot arrive at a "rational basis for morality" if you start off with a completely irrational act (taking the bible as 100% truth).

I don't believe that Darth Vader existed "a long time ago, in a galaxy, far, far, away...". But, that's basically what you're asking us to do. Now do you see why we resist that stupidity?

 

[kranky]

I respect the choice of whether to believe, but to say believers are backward, doing it for convenience, disordered, irrational, fools, stupid, etc. (all used in this very thread) is quite arrogant.

 

[soccerballtux]

Why the fuck would I start with that obviously wrong assumption, then base everything that I believe in off of that ?

Because it's consistent with itself _and_ it provides a reason to exist, move, breathe, not murder each other, live, love; and provides so much more context to the beauty we see in the world.

Your assumption is consistent with itself and _that's it_. Your assumption does not explain why we choose morality in our culture, why we matter, why the world is beautiful, or why it matters if we live or die.

 

[soccerballtux]

I respect the choice of whether to believe, but to say believers are backward, doing it for convenience, disordered, irrational, fools, stupid, etc. (all used in this very thread) is quite arrogant.

This is something else I'd like to mention. For being so enlightened about our humanity, many atheists (at least on the internet) sure are a nasty bunch. My Christian friends sure are a lot less rude when we disagree.
The atheists I have known all seemed deeply angry for some reason. They seem to have to convince other people they are right before they are able to believe it themselves.

 

[Nemesis 1]

If that doesn't help you this is all I have to say to YOU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ0OtbRweEk&feature=related