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Pentagon Re-Think . . .

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Let's Come Up With Another Idea, Plan 'B' - From Outer Space !

Hindsight is 20:20, especially when those in the drivers seat wouldn't listen to those who had experience . . .

L.A. Times -
<CLIP>

The war in Iraq is forcing top Pentagon planners to rethink several key assumptions about the use of military power and has called into question the vision set out nearly four years ago that the armed forces can win wars and keep the peace with small numbers of fast-moving, lightly armed troops.

As the Pentagon begins a comprehensive review that will map the future of America's armed forces, many Defense Department officials are acknowledging that an intractable Iraqi insurgency they didn't foresee has undermined the military strategy.

In the weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, the Pentagon unveiled a new agenda that promised to prepare the military to fight smaller wars against terrorist networks and to swiftly defeat rogue states.

With Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld pushing for a "lighter, more lethal and highly mobile fighting force," the Pentagon scrapped as outdated the requirement that the U.S. military be large enough to simultaneously fight two large-scale wars against massed enemy armies. And it spent little time worrying about how to keep the peace after the shooting stopped.

Something happened on the way to the wars of the future: The Pentagon became bogged down in an old-fashioned, costly and drawn-out war of occupation. Though the rapid assault on Baghdad in March 2003 went smoothly, it is the bloody two years since that have diverged from the Pentagon's blueprint.

"When people were thinking about regime change, they really weren't thinking about the long-term stabilization and peacekeeping operations. There was a view that in terms of gross numbers, [regime change operations] wouldn't last as long as Iraq has," said Rand Corp. fellow Andrew Hoehn, who led the Pentagon's last major review in 2001.

As the Pentagon begins its assessment, it has 145,000 troops stationed in a country they were supposed to have left months ago. And with tensions rising between Washington and the two other countries labeled by President Bush as part of an "axis of evil" ? Iran and North Korea ? there is a growing belief within the military's ranks that the White House's rhetoric about preemptive war is out of sync with the U.S. military's strained resources.

Some inside the Pentagon criticized senior Bush administration officials for assuming that the war in Iraq would end when U.S. troops toppled Saddam Hussein's regime ? and for assuming the U.S. could reduce its troop presence to 30,000 soldiers within six months of Baghdad's fall.

"The administration was flat wrong on Iraq because they had blinders on," said a senior Army official who worked on strategic planning at the Pentagon. "There's now a much greater perception that we need to know what we're signing up for before we get into it."

As a consequence, the importance of peacekeeping operations and help from allied militaries ? ideas that some discounted three years ago as remnants of the President Clinton era ? are back in vogue at the Pentagon.

Although born out of a blizzard of complex diagrams and flow charts, the Pentagon assessment, known as the Quadrennial Defense Review, or QDR, is not an academic exercise.

First undertaken after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the QDR is the playbook the Pentagon uses to guide decisions such as how big the military should be and which big-ticket weapons the Defense Department ought to purchase.

The Pentagon's decision in 2001 to scrap the two-war doctrine freed war planners from requiring enough heavy armor divisions to simultaneously fight two major wars, and allowed the Pentagon to invest in more futuristic weaponry like a missile defense system.

"We're always going to have a limited budget. So when we're making decisions about where to spend the next dollar, you want everyone clear about which sheet of music we're all singing off of," said Michele Flournoy of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Flournoy was one of the lead Pentagon officials on the 1997 review, which embraced the two-war doctrine.

The new review, which is just beginning, will not be completed until early next year. Last fall, a Pentagon advisory board predicted that the protracted stability operations underway in Iraq and Afghanistan were a model for the U.S. military's future. The Pentagon has focused too little on preparing for what happens after major combat operations end, said the Defense Science Board, which advises Rumsfeld.

"Some have believed, or hoped, that the technological and conceptual advances ? can reduce the time and personnel needed for stabilization and reconstruction," the board said. "Unfortunately, we do not find that is the case."

The Defense Science Board report was commissioned to guide the upcoming Quadrennial Defense Review studies, and it is part of a growing body of Pentagon analysis signaling a shift in Defense Department thinking.

Another possible shift has to do with the perception of U.S. allies. With the Army and Marine Corps straining to meet the Pentagon's troop requirements for Iraq and Afghanistan, the participation of allies has taken on greater importance. Foreign troops would be necessary for any large-scale operation the U.S. military might undertake, planners said, if only to share the post-conflict burdens such as those confronting the U.S. military in Iraq.

"There are smarter, more efficient ways to do regime change and occupation," said one senior civilian official at the Pentagon. "One of those ways is to rely much more on our friends and allies to do the back-end work."

In recent weeks, Bush administration officials have taken a far more conciliatory tone with some of America's oldest European allies. Whereas Rumsfeld once slighted NATO's western European members ? referring to them as "old Europe" ? he poked fun at those comments to win over European ministers during a trip to the continent last month.

"That was old Rumsfeld," he said.

On Thursday, Rumsfeld welcomed French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie to the Pentagon, praising the cooperation between the nations' militaries over the years.

The Iraq war has also shown the weakness in a strategy created by the Pentagon in 2003 to help plan major operations.

The 10-30-30 construct said that the U.S. military should plan military actions to seize the initiative within 10 days of the start of an offensive, achieve limited military objectives within 30 days, and be prepared within another 30 days to shift military resources to another area of the world.

Many Pentagon officials fear that the success Iraqi insurgents have had in preventing a U.S. troop reduction in Iraq could be the new rule, rather than the exception.

As few enemies choose to fight the U.S. military head-on, they might opt instead to fight protracted rear-guard insurgencies.

"I think that the Pentagon realizes by now that 10-30-30 is largely outdated," said Frank Hoffman of the Marine Corps' Center for Emerging Threats and Opportunities, a contributor to the Defense Science Board study. "It presumes a model of warfare that we ourselves have made obsolete."

Hoffman said no adversary was likely to present U.S. forces with a conventional threat that can be defeated in 30 days.

"Our enemy's metric is protracting conflicts to 3,000 days or more," he said. "Prolonged insurgency, death by a thousand cuts, is their answer to 'shock and awe.' "
 
Well, it's good to know that we now know what to expect when we march into Iran, Syria, N. Korea, etc.. I'm sure Poland will continue to back us up too.
 
Maybe the answer is to incapacitate hostile regimes by destroying their military, then letting the people do as they see fit once the mechanism for oppression is gone.
 
CW, once the oppression is gone, a new oppressive power could rise. You see, people have a tendancy to rise up behind strong leadership, this comes with pride for their nation and hope to create a better life for themselves.
Whether or not a good leader will take root is questionable at best. I would actually but my bets on a dictator.
Also military under dictators will use every resource available to not fold. That means urban warfare which will inevitably crumble most forms of infrastructure. The investment needed to reconstruct is massive, i don't think a country could do this on its own.

I think what you propose is similar to what happened in Iran many years ago. The people rebelled against the shah, so the military was beat, but the leadership chosen or allowed to lead the country was the church. And we all know how that turned out. I honestly don't trust your proposed way of pushing democracy.

Also, military is extremely expensive...very inefficient use of resources.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Maybe the answer is to incapacitate hostile regimes by destroying their military, then letting the people do as they see fit once the mechanism for oppression is gone.

That's called civil war and its not a good strategy.
 
There is nothing that Pentagon can come up with to eliminate the inheriant disadvantage of standing army. There's a chinese proverb(?, may be it's from Art of War) that says "Those in the light are easy to attack, and those in the dark are difficult to seek". Any national standing military will always have the disadvantage of relatively fixed location and political consequence. A good example was VietCong's success against the US military in Vietnam. Even though VietCong suffered much higher human casualty, they were insanely effective in attacking US troops by guerilla tactics, and were MUCH more effective in creating political back-lash back in the states. It's the same with insurgents in Iraq. They have no fixed base or location to protect, and they have no standing nation in which they would receive political backlash. The US troops on the otherhand, is the exact reverse.

To eliminate this disadvantage is impossible, as standing army (such as US military) exist only if they are chained to a standing nation. The key to solving the terrorist/insurgent issue is not military. It is strictly political and diplomatic. By eliminating the political motive, and population support for insurgency, they will disappear.
 
Guerilla tactics are over-rated. Assassination squads are what cleanse insurgents from a war zone. This is exactly the tactic used in South America to clean up the post-Communist regimes. And it will rear its head soon enough in Iraq. The night works both ways.
 
Ahh, yes, MadRat brings forth the "Salvador Option", mass murder, as a viable option wrt to imposing our will on other countries, and the people who live there. Reminds me of the Wars of the Reformation, when the populations of entire cities were put to the sword to save their souls... Helluva way to spread "Freedom" and "Democracy"- anybody else notice how the idea of "Self Determination" is conspicuously absent from the Neocon Lexicon? Or how it's bad when Saddam engages in such tactics, but good when we do the same?

It didn't work, anyway. The unrest in El Salvador was quelled only by UN involvement, and compromise, wherein the ruling elite gave up just enough land to allow the peasants a chance at escaping their debt/peonage heritage...

I have a certain sympathy for the Pentagon planners, given that their current civilian leaders deal mostly in fantasy and wishful thinking, basically a Versailles on the Potomac mentality. Ask Shinseki, the top Pentagon planner who was sh!tcanned by the admin for telling the truth, that several hundred thousand troops would be required for the occupation of Iraq....

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/is...nsequences/2003/0228pentagoncontra.htm
 
I liken democracies to complex ecosystems. They must develop within their environment gradually just as any ecosystem.

Democracy cannot be forced on any people because the act in itself is antithetical to democracy. If you attempt to do so the system can't develop within the cultural, religious, and psychological framework of the nation you impose it on. Just as every ecosystem mankind has clumsily tried to alter over the centuries, outside interference will only result in damage to a fragile system. There are too many variables during the development of an ecosystem, whether it be a rain forest or a nation's government, for anyone to design.

It's like that old sci-fi story about time travel where a traveller leaves the safety of the path and inadvertently kills a bug. When he returns to the present a recognized madman who had no chance of winning is now ruling his country.

Hey! Maybe that's what happened to America!!!?

I believe it's possible to improve conditions for the development of demcoracy but even then you can never know what results to expect. One nation's democracy is another's tyranny.

The idea of democracy at gunpoint should have been recognized for what it is. An arrogant impossibility. And the idea that it could be accomplished without sufficient resources to maintain order after the chaos of military invasion of a nation of 26 million is beyond wrong. It's criminal incompetence.

But since it's being done inside the Bush administration no one need fear accountability. Only Medals of Freedom. :roll:

***EDIT***

PS I almost forgot. Freedom and democracy were never the reasons Bush invaded Iraq in the first place. Let's just keep that in mind as the Bushies continue to use this ludicrous bait and switch.

 
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
It didn't work, anyway. The unrest in El Salvador was quelled only by UN involvement, and compromise, wherein the ruling elite gave up just enough land to allow the peasants a chance at escaping their debt/peonage heritage...

I think you believe all the secret killing teams were American. I find it disturbing that the U.S. would need to stump to this level, but the only way for a society to become stabilized is to cleanse it of misfits. The option in incarceration, which is too expensive for fledgling governments. Or the second option is to eliminate the misfits. Cuba does it humanely, with its open door policy. Then again they do have a large political prisoner population and do kill people that try to return. The "Salvadore option" is really the only way at this point in Iraq that they will quell the resistance in the Sunni Triangle. By owning the night they will make the vermin come out in the daylight, which is exactly what is happening now. Most resistance anymore is from 9AM to noon, followed by dusk and dawn as the next most common times. I don't know if you assume quell means to eliminate it, but in my context it means to stem the activity. This is a realistic goal.
 
Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
It didn't work, anyway. The unrest in El Salvador was quelled only by UN involvement, and compromise, wherein the ruling elite gave up just enough land to allow the peasants a chance at escaping their debt/peonage heritage...

I think you believe all the secret killing teams were American. I find it disturbing that the U.S. would need to stump to this level, but the only way for a society to become stabilized is to cleanse it of misfits. The option in incarceration, which is too expensive for fledgling governments. Or the second option is to eliminate the misfits. Cuba does it humanely, with its open door policy. Then again they do have a large political prisoner population and do kill people that try to return. The "Salvadore option" is really the only way at this point in Iraq that they will quell the resistance in the Sunni Triangle. By owning the night they will make the vermin come out in the daylight, which is exactly what is happening now. Most resistance anymore is from 9AM to noon, followed by dusk and dawn as the next most common times. I don't know if you assume quell means to eliminate it, but in my context it means to stem the activity. This is a realistic goal.

So along with torture we're supposed to condone death squads? And all in the name of democracy?

Disgusting. Truly evil. No better than your "misfits".

Exactly who decides who these "misfits" are and which "misfits" to assassinate? And for what reasons? For example, would a journalist who insists on reportng the news as she sees it instead of reciting U.S. military propaganda be considered a "misfit" and approved for assassination? What about people who simply criticize the administration? "Misfits"?

Reporting the truth about what is happening to Iraq or criticizing Bush for the carnage he's caused is already seen as an act against the empire by many right here on these forums, isn't it? Are we all "Misfits"? Are your death squads the "final solution" for political dissent as they were in Central America under the watchful eye of the very same John Dimitri Negroponte who is now calling the plays for Bush in Iraq?

When nations that our "leaders" refer to as evil conduct such crimes we have names we use to describe them. When our "leaders" conduct such crimes they are shocked and insulted when the same names are used to describe them.

Why can't you all understand the simple fact that there is no justification for such behavior? Torture and murder is all the same no matter who is conducting it or what their reasons.

 
No, MadRat, the killing teams weren't secret, they lounged around on the grounds of the presidential palace in the daylight, sleeping, drinking, playing cards, cleaning their weapons, waiting for their next list of victims. And they weren't Americans- they just had american leadership, guns, money, intelligence and training- plausible deniability and all that...

I think it's utterly despicable that those who claim human rights abuses were the reasons for invading Iraq (no others have held up) are now willing to engage in the same sort of practices- spreading democracy from the barrel of a gun isn't spreading democracy at all. Not that those who claim the ends justify the means would recognize that the means are the ends, the concept being entirely too deep for anybody accepting the "with us or against us" line of horsepucky...
 
I never condoned assassination squads. They are a byproduct of the nature escalation of war. They are there now. They will intensify. And when the job is mostly done they will fade away as if they never existed. It happens over and over with U.S. police actions. Did people not see what they did to Serbia's ex-leadership? Most of them cease to exist. Some simply disappeared, as if they vanished off the face of the earth.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
CW, once the oppression is gone, a new oppressive power could rise. You see, people have a tendancy to rise up behind strong leadership, this comes with pride for their nation and hope to create a better life for themselves.
Whether or not a good leader will take root is questionable at best. I would actually but my bets on a dictator.
Also military under dictators will use every resource available to not fold. That means urban warfare which will inevitably crumble most forms of infrastructure. The investment needed to reconstruct is massive, i don't think a country could do this on its own.

I think what you propose is similar to what happened in Iran many years ago. The people rebelled against the shah, so the military was beat, but the leadership chosen or allowed to lead the country was the church. And we all know how that turned out. I honestly don't trust your proposed way of pushing democracy.

Also, military is extremely expensive...very inefficient use of resources.
I agree 100% - proof by contradiction of sorts. The question is, what better way is there than what we're doing now? I think the answer is that we don't know and we're trying our best, since it's in no one's best interest for us to fail.
 
Ah, MadRat is here again, praising the death squads, drooling over the thousands of peasants shot and burned, teachers murdered, nuns raped, doctors shot. "byproduct of the nature escalation of war", my big hairy @ss. They were created, finanaced, and their leaders trained by our democracy-loving government. MadRat, you were born 60 years late, there were particular people who would have loved to have you on board. Or maybe not, I hear there are great opportunities in the current administration for people like you.
 
A good example was VietCong's success against the US military in Vietnam.

Not to be a dick but the VietCong didn't win a single battle. They didn't even win the Tet Offensive. They also tended to lose a lot of small encounters. They got their a$$es kicked all around the region.


What they did - according to their leadership at least was to last as long as it took for the American media to beat the US army. Forget the name of the general, but he was their leader at the end and recently said that the VietCong were within weeks of having to surrendur when the press essentially did their work for them.
 
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