• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Pending GM bankruptcy...

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Originally posted by: southpawuni
The whole country is in decline it seems.

The situation you talk about needs to be fixed now. The problem is, the only true and real fix no one wants to hear or talk about.. thats doing something about the labor unions.
I'm not anti union, but the wages are not even close to competitive with other less developed nations.
Click to expand...

Labor costs will never be competitive with less developed nations regardless. The cost of living is way too high.

That's not to say that they are not overpaid, I know nothing of the truth of that, however no matter how little they are paid they will not be competitive with third world labor costs or they will starve.

So you can set expectations based on that.


 
1) less GM cars to steal

2) less Ford cars to steal

3) Honda & Toyota gain in popularity as 'Most Stolen Cars'

4) Americans no longer purchase foriegn made cars, since they no longer have jobs.
 
I see this as a 'ploy' by GM to differ payments on loans or negotiate some new contracts. The Credit side of GM makes lots of $$$$'s. This is all due to Delphi filing for bankcruptcy and the liabilities GM could have since they spun the business off a few years back. Sure, the Union labor costs are high, the benefits costs amount to over $1200 per car if I recall.
 
What an interesting discussion, in OT this discussion sidetracked to quality issues between manufacturers and here it stayed focussed on the issues of GM's business case.
WELL DONE!!😎
I agree some cost of production corrections are going to have to happen
I work in a union, we are better off but not overpaid 'yet' accountability is a problem.
Fear is a great motivator and if your looking to get a ahead in a private company work ethic goes a long way but NA productivety has risen over the last 30 yrs per hr worked all due to technology. I don't think that level can be sustained.
 
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: slyedog
if gm outsources all to china and they make cars at 1/10 the cost. would we see cheaper prices in the states for GM cars?
Click to expand...

Like we see cheaper prices for KIA's?
Click to expand...

Good warranty factors into price i would think. Kias have a good one now.
 
a forklift driver getting paid $110k isn't really that big a deal in the big picture. The biggest problem facing GM is medical costs and pension benefits. GM's has more retirees than it's paying for than active employees. Not only this, but UAW people pay for less than 5% of their medical expenses compared to 27% for white collar.

Many of GM's retirees are close to 65 and GM is trying to ride out the next few years as they get picked up by medicare and taken off their books.

The whole union model only works if no new competitors come into the market. If new competitors come in who are usually not unionized, they can offer a better product for less money and the whole pyramid falls apart. This is why inflation is so low now compared to the 1970's even though energy prices are very high. You can blame GM for selling SUV's all you want, but the only reason they are doing it is because the profit margins are high enough to pay their bills. If they sold more cars than they would go bankrupt.
 
Yes but wages and PENSION are negotiated by the unions and pension is ususally a function of wage.
Lower wage, lower pensions, I forget the guy who posted working for one of the big 3 that they get full wage by the car company even when they are laid off for 3 yrs?
How can you pay somebody full wage for doing nothing? Those are some of the plums the UAW have built into the contracts. I think you dump a lot of those they start to come back in line and a lot of benefit packages need to de-list a lot of covered benefits.
My wifes benefits blow mine away and she is non-unionized, but works for a health insurance providor which puts my unionized benefits to shame. Makes half the salary twice the benefits.
 
They'd better go bankrupt fast to beat the changing bankruptcy laws. Any lack of profitability is due to an oversaturated suv market and lack of product variety. They don't even market a product that comes close to competing with the honda civic.
 
Don't forget the ridiculously high wages they are paying + benefits + pension costs. I spoke to a friend of mine who mentioned that he knows a guy working for Delphi that applies little stickers and makes $32 an hour doing it.
 
You can't blame all of GM's woes on the Unions. As stupid as some of them are... GM's management has to take a share of the blame. They negotated with the Unions.. and they are responsible for not capping the issue.

Caterpillar was in the same position 8 years ago. The union struck, Cat flew in new workers, let their management employees work in the factories... and ran 24/7. Sure, they lost money... but the union gave in after 6 months. The contract was reasonable... and Caterpillar still makes money with a union workforce. GM just caves.

The other issue with management at GM is that they are distant from what takes place. GM is run like a government, management by commitee. As a long time automotive engineer... I've been at GM/Ford/DCX and by far GM is the worst for having more chiefs than indians. They "manage" everything to the point that there is no efficency... nothing gets done on time (unless the timelines are 5 years out). There is alot of talent at GM, but most of the time it is wasted in stupid turf battles and insider politics.

I think GM has to die... if only to wipe the slate clean... and help them focus on what is really important.
 
Originally posted by: kleinwl
You can't blame all of GM's woes on the Unions. As stupid as some of them are... GM's management has to take a share of the blame. They negotated with the Unions.. and they are responsible for not capping the issue.

Caterpillar was in the same position 8 years ago. The union struck, Cat flew in new workers, let their management employees work in the factories... and ran 24/7. Sure, they lost money... but the union gave in after 6 months. The contract was reasonable... and Caterpillar still makes money with a union workforce. GM just caves.

The other issue with management at GM is that they are distant from what takes place. GM is run like a government, management by commitee. As a long time automotive engineer... I've been at GM/Ford/DCX and by far GM is the worst for having more chiefs than indians. They "manage" everything to the point that there is no efficency... nothing gets done on time (unless the timelines are 5 years out). There is alot of talent at GM, but most of the time it is wasted in stupid turf battles and insider politics.

I think GM has to die... if only to wipe the slate clean... and help them focus on what is really important.
Click to expand...

So true, management has to have the balls to stand up to the unions. I think the current situation at NWA is interesting. I have this feeling eventually the union members will cross the line. But the management is a bunch of toolboxes and should go as well.

 
Big business is simply following the trends that we as Americans create. Look at society in general...we are overweight (myself included), spend too much (again, myself included), and don't take responsibility for our actions (again, myself included, until recently), instead relying on the lawers and politicans to do it for us. We lack motivation and just plain self-respect to get anything done. It is no wonder that we are beginning to be outdone by china and other countries around the world. We rely on our image from the past as the great world benefactor and protector whenever things get rough. And that image hasn't been real for a long time. Basically, we have become the cliche obnioxous american that alot of the world sees us as. BUT!!!

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT...

NO MATTER WHAT...

it is NOT too late. it is NEVER too late, as long as even one of us cares...
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
NOT..

I am trying to buy a good used car..

I go to www.carsurvey.org and research first.. and it seems like tons of fords and GM cars seem to always be needing repairs.. COSTLY BIG repairs

I helped my girlfriend buy a brand new 1998 Toyota Corolla.. We now have 110,000 miles on it.. ***guess what repairs have been done to it in all those miles???????


* I added two new tiny pieces to the inside of the starter... THAT IS IT - besides changing oil and brakes and tires..

I HATE repairs ANY repair.. .they are all way costly
Click to expand...

I've seen Oldmobile Delta 88's go 300K without repairs.

You can go all day back and forth about this. Theres some truth in japanese quality, and alot of BS too.

Many people want to compare a honda civic (1300lb? car) to a chevy suburban and call the chevy crap. Thats not even right. The suburban can do 10X the stuff a civic can do.. is way heavier (meaning your brakes ect will go out sooner).. people forget its a truck and expect a small cars maintainence.

If you dont need a truck or SUV.. dont buy one thats my advice.. the vast majority of daily half-ton truck drivers dont need them.. its a penis enlarging purchase. And the SUV guys realize they dont need a truck, so they buy a "pimpin" SUV ride and attempt to look cool in it as the gas is guzzled down a gallon a mile. :thumbsup:

I see way too many ppl buying and driving trucks as cars, then saying "geez those american cars suck.. i put so much repair money into my old ford expedition"
well. yeah! when you drive it LIKE A CAR zooming around..

people have no common sense.

A Chevy Cobalt or other small american car can be as reliable as a foreign.

I've heard a old professor of mine say the exact same thing about replacing the breaks in his tahoe.. and whining about how he didnt have to do that on his civic.. wow.. what a fking genius he was.
Stopping a 4000lb+ truck (which I'm sure he drove like a maniac).. versus a 1000lb piece of crap that is capable of no more than going from A to B. AMERICAN JUNK! :roll:
 
Originally posted by: kleinwl
You can't blame all of GM's woes on the Unions. As stupid as some of them are... GM's management has to take a share of the blame. They negotated with the Unions.. and they are responsible for not capping the issue.
Click to expand...

Thats easy to say, but I disagree because when times were good.. management was good to the UAW and shared in the joys of success.

But times get tough, and wheres the old pals in the UAW?
Taking the ship down with them.

Manufacturing in America needs to absolish all unions.. and Walmart needs to unionize. The people that need wages (and the company that can afford to pay them more easy) will get them and buy more stuff, pay more taxes.

And the manufacturing people will still have jobs instead of having to go to Walmart.
Also, America isnt left with no manufacturing capability.. kinda handy if you need to build a tank for this WW3 we got started.


The other issue with management at GM is that they are distant from what takes place. GM is run like a government, management by commitee. As a long time automotive engineer... I've been at GM/Ford/DCX and by far GM is the worst for having more chiefs than indians. They "manage" everything to the point that there is no efficency... nothing gets done on time (unless the timelines are 5 years out). There is alot of talent at GM, but most of the time it is wasted in stupid turf battles and insider politics.
Click to expand...
Its too big. I agree.
They dwarf our puny japanese competitors.
 
Actually the unionization of the service industry would be a boon to many a working mother and it doesn't have to be about wages.
Split shifting, sexual harrasment etc are all issues that collective bargaining can do some good problem being the employer base is too diverse and small potatoes to make work
 
Originally posted by: charrison
Yes they would be cheaper. Why would they want other car dealers to have marketshare if they could produce at 1/10 the cost.
Click to expand...

They would have to become cheaper because people earning poverty-level wages (as a result of all the middle class jobs being shipped abroad) wouldn't be able to afford the cars at the previous prices.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Back
Top