Pelosi: Tax Increases For Those Making UNDER $250,000 On The Table

[waggy]

Originally posted by: shira
I'm a little confused here: Conservatives for years have been pushing their so-called "Fair Tax," which is essentially a VAT of 30%. To be fair, conservatives want their "Fair Tax" in place of the income tax, which they'd do away with. But if I were a conservative, I'd be behind Pelosi's proposal as a first step toward a "Fair Tax" system.

But what do we see in this thread: Conservative posters are opposed, presumably because its origin is a liberal politician.

So tell me, conservatives, how come a "Fair Tax" won't ruin our economy, yet a "VAT" will be fatal?

bwhahahahahhahahah oh man great joke.

lets add a new 30% tax and then they will cancel the income tax latter. hahahahahahah oh yeah i see that happening lol

 

[squirrel dog]

I agree with fern on this one.I was around when Jimmy Carter's time in office coincided
with the largest inflationary period in my life time.The upside was my cd's went from 6% to 13.8% , the down side was gas lines and most things costing more(milk/bread/gas/utils)

I feel more tax now would be very harmful.And yes Nancy is someone that needs to be replaced.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I can't wait for tax induced inflation! VAT is cool because it's a great tax that's obscured along the way. Well we knew we were going to get screwed and that the Dems weren't any better. They just screw us differently. It's come to the point where it's not worth the gas money to vote for any of these leeches.

'Tax induced inflation'? Taxes remove money from the economy, not add to it.

Yes prices will inflate, but it won't be because of excess demand, reduced purchasing power of the $, or increases in underlying costs such as fuel, or even increases in custom duties - it'll be because of increased taxes. So, his statement is fair.

Fern

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: shira
I'm a little confused here: Conservatives for years have been pushing their so-called "Fair Tax," which is essentially a VAT of 30%. To be fair, conservatives want their "Fair Tax" in place of the income tax, which they'd do away with. But if I were a conservative, I'd be behind Pelosi's proposal as a first step toward a "Fair Tax" system.

But what do we see in this thread: Conservative posters are opposed, presumably because its origin is a liberal politician.

So tell me, conservatives, how come a "Fair Tax" won't ruin our economy, yet a "VAT" will be fatal?

bwhahahahahhahahah oh man great joke.

lets add a new 30% tax and then they will cancel the income tax latter. hahahahahahah oh yeah i see that happening lol

No shit. There's a lot of wide-eyed innocence here.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Fern, it's a duck

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I can't wait for tax induced inflation! VAT is cool because it's a great tax that's obscured along the way. Well we knew we were going to get screwed and that the Dems weren't any better. They just screw us differently. It's come to the point where it's not worth the gas money to vote for any of these leeches.

'Tax induced inflation'? Taxes remove money from the economy, not add to it.

Yes prices will inflate, but it won't be because of excess demand, reduced purchasing power of the $, or increases in underlying costs such as fuel, or even increases in custom duties - it'll be because of increased taxes. So, his statement is fair.

Fern

But all the additional price added on to the cigarettes is removed from the economy, making every other dollar in the economy worth more. I'm still not seeing how this is inflation.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Wait- you are saying that if I have to pay 5k more I'm not paying 5k more? I've just had money taken out of my pocket and didn't at the same time? Is this Schroetengers cat thing?

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I can't wait for tax induced inflation! VAT is cool because it's a great tax that's obscured along the way. Well we knew we were going to get screwed and that the Dems weren't any better. They just screw us differently. It's come to the point where it's not worth the gas money to vote for any of these leeches.

'Tax induced inflation'? Taxes remove money from the economy, not add to it.

Yes prices will inflate, but it won't be because of excess demand, reduced purchasing power of the $, or increases in underlying costs such as fuel, or even increases in custom duties - it'll be because of increased taxes. So, his statement is fair.

Fern

But all the additional price added on to the cigarettes is removed from the economy, making every other dollar in the economy worth more. I'm still not seeing how this is inflation.

i almost was going to add this to my sig, it's that good...

a tax, like the cig tax, is a massive dose of inflation on a commodity. the folks who consume that commodity tend to be lowbuckers overall, so it's a massively regressive tax, too... remember, taxes happen to people... you don't tax cigarettes or businesses, you tax people...

and virtually any $$$ given to the govt is inflationary, since it is virtually always leveraged (used only as a downpayment on something) when it is turned around... it isn't ever used to pay down the national debt, so it's not 'removed from the economy'...

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Wait- you are saying that if I have to pay 5k more I'm not paying 5k more? I've just had money taken out of my pocket and didn't at the same time? Is this Schroetengers cat thing?

No, taxes levied by the government are not the same as businesses raising their prices. In a fiat currency system when the government takes in tax money it is in effect removing money from the economy. When money is removed from the economy, the value of all the remaining money increases. I know what you mean that you are paying more money out of your pocket for cigarettes, and so maybe in your personal situation things cost more, but as a society they do not.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Wait- you are saying that if I have to pay 5k more I'm not paying 5k more? I've just had money taken out of my pocket and didn't at the same time? Is this Schroetengers cat thing?

No, taxes levied by the government are not the same as businesses raising their prices. In a fiat currency system when the government takes in tax money it is in effect removing money from the economy. When money is removed from the economy, the value of all the remaining money increases. I know what you mean that you are paying more money out of your pocket for cigarettes, and so maybe in your personal situation things cost more, but as a society they do not.

Taxes don't remove money from the economy. You clearly don't know what you're talking about

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: newnameman

Originally posted by: shira
I'm a little confused here: Conservatives for years have been pushing their so-called "Fair Tax," which is essentially a VAT of 30%. To be fair, conservatives want their "Fair Tax" in place of the income tax, which they'd do away with. But if I were a conservative, I'd be behind Pelosi's proposal as a first step toward a "Fair Tax" system.

But what do we see in this thread: Conservative posters are opposed, presumably because its origin is a liberal politician.

So tell me, conservatives, how come a "Fair Tax" won't ruin our economy, yet a "VAT" will be fatal?

You seriously believe that garbage? You're saying that conservatives should support a VAT without any other corresponding tax decreases, and hope that at some unspecified point in the future Democrats will agree to disband the income tax system?

1) Pelosi stated that this potential VAT would be revenue-neutral for middle class (and, I assume, lower-class) taxpayers (not sure what income cutoff qualifies for Pelosi's "middle class"), which to me implies there WOULD be a "corresponding income tax decrease" (for other than the rich).

2) I'm not advocating anything. Based on previous conservative rhetoric supporting the "Fair Tax," I expected this VAT idea to get conservative support. At the worst, conservatives could offer a counter-proposal that would make any VAT totally revenue neutral. But I'm not hearing that. I just hear conservatives saying that a VAT would be fatal to American business. So I asked a question.

So you see, I'm just a truth seeker.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Wait- you are saying that if I have to pay 5k more I'm not paying 5k more? I've just had money taken out of my pocket and didn't at the same time? Is this Schroetengers cat thing?

No, taxes levied by the government are not the same as businesses raising their prices. In a fiat currency system when the government takes in tax money it is in effect removing money from the economy. When money is removed from the economy, the value of all the remaining money increases. I know what you mean that you are paying more money out of your pocket for cigarettes, and so maybe in your personal situation things cost more, but as a society they do not.

Taxes don't remove money from the economy. You clearly don't know what you're talking about

Question: are you disputing Keynesian economics or Eskimo's understanding of the Keynesian economics?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ok economics is not an area of expertise for me so someone explain to me that if a sales tax is added to a product so one pays more it isn't paying more? When anybody buys a car they will be paying more but we aren't?

2=3?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Wait- you are saying that if I have to pay 5k more I'm not paying 5k more? I've just had money taken out of my pocket and didn't at the same time? Is this Schroetengers cat thing?

No, taxes levied by the government are not the same as businesses raising their prices.

Uh, youre fail. To the consumer, its the same.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: shira
I'm a little confused here: Conservatives for years have been pushing their so-called "Fair Tax," which is essentially a VAT of 30%. To be fair, conservatives want their "Fair Tax" in place of the income tax, which they'd do away with. But if I were a conservative, I'd be behind Pelosi's proposal as a first step toward a "Fair Tax" system.

But what do we see in this thread: Conservative posters are opposed, presumably because its origin is a liberal politician.

So tell me, conservatives, how come a "Fair Tax" won't ruin our economy, yet a "VAT" will be fatal?

bwhahahahahhahahah oh man great joke.

lets add a new 30% tax and then they will cancel the income tax latter. hahahahahahah oh yeah i see that happening lol

lol ripped the words out of my mouth

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Wait- you are saying that if I have to pay 5k more I'm not paying 5k more? I've just had money taken out of my pocket and didn't at the same time? Is this Schroetengers cat thing?

No, taxes levied by the government are not the same as businesses raising their prices. .

No, it is just how the Democrats like the pretend they are helping the middle class.

 

[Praxis1452]

Whether or not consumers bear the tax burden is dependent on the supply and demand curves. This is basis microecon, hardly a controversial topic. The more inelastic the demand curve or the more elastic the supply curve the greater the tax burden on the consumer. Flip it for the producer. The inelastic demand curve is more likely to occur on products such as food and other necessities, thouh I'm not sure if that would be included. Eskimospy, you obviously know very little about econ if you simply state that the consumer will not bear the cost you partisan hack.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Just for the record, Obama already levied one of the highest tax increases in history on those making less than $250k when he raised the cigarette tax by more than a dollar-per-pack last Spring.

This would just be more icing on the cake of broken promises.

Fuck Pelosi. She has no business remaining in power, and I can't for the life of me figure out the reason why she's still there... wait, nevermind, it's fucking California. Duh. :|

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Just for the record, Obama already levied one of the highest tax increases in history on those making less than @250k when he raised the cigarette tax by more than a dollar-per-pack last Spring.

This would just be more icing on the cake of broken promises.

Fuck Pelosi. She has no business remaining in power, and I can't for the life of me figure out the reason why she's still there... wait, nevermind, it's fucking California. Duh. :|

don't you have the thread to finish or are you too much of a chickenshit?

 

[piasabird]

VAT is an EU term. Where does this communist Pelosi live at?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: shira
I'm a little confused here: Conservatives for years have been pushing their so-called "Fair Tax," which is essentially a VAT of 30%. To be fair, conservatives want their "Fair Tax" in place of the income tax, which they'd do away with. But if I were a conservative, I'd be behind Pelosi's proposal as a first step toward a "Fair Tax" system.

But what do we see in this thread: Conservative posters are opposed, presumably because its origin is a liberal politician.

So tell me, conservatives, how come a "Fair Tax" won't ruin our economy, yet a "VAT" will be fatal?

bwhahahahahhahahah oh man great joke.

lets add a new 30% tax and then they will cancel the income tax latter. hahahahahahah oh yeah i see that happening lol

You're imagining things. Pelosi's tax wouldn't be anything remotely approaching 30%. To my knowledge, there are no details as to what the size of this VAT would be.

My point was that - from a conservative perspective - it would create a mechanism that could eventually give conservatives what they say they want. Hence my words, "first step."

I guess I shouldn't expect righties to understand nuance, however. Lotta low IQs on that side of the aisle.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: shira
I'm a little confused here: Conservatives for years have been pushing their so-called "Fair Tax," which is essentially a VAT of 30%. To be fair, conservatives want their "Fair Tax" in place of the income tax, which they'd do away with. But if I were a conservative, I'd be behind Pelosi's proposal as a first step toward a "Fair Tax" system.

But what do we see in this thread: Conservative posters are opposed, presumably because its origin is a liberal politician.

So tell me, conservatives, how come a "Fair Tax" won't ruin our economy, yet a "VAT" will be fatal?

bwhahahahahhahahah oh man great joke.

lets add a new 30% tax and then they will cancel the income tax latter. hahahahahahah oh yeah i see that happening lol

lol ripped the words out of my mouth

Ah. Another low IQ.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Wait- you are saying that if I have to pay 5k more I'm not paying 5k more? I've just had money taken out of my pocket and didn't at the same time? Is this Schroetengers cat thing?

No, taxes levied by the government are not the same as businesses raising their prices.

Uh, youre fail. To the consumer, its the same.

To the consumer of that specific product it is the same, but it is not inflation. Technically every time you pay a dollar in taxes everyone else's dollars become more valuable. Taxes exert DEFLATIONARY pressure, not INFLATIONARY pressure as they take money out of circulation.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well you seem to think taxes will be cut. The Dems won't do that because they won't be able to fund their programs. When this happens the general response will be to the effect of "Those righties..." and pretend this never happened. If someone is going to tax us don't lie about it.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Just for the record, Obama already levied one of the highest tax increases in history on those making less than @250k when he raised the cigarette tax by more than a dollar-per-pack last Spring.

This would just be more icing on the cake of broken promises.

Fuck Pelosi. She has no business remaining in power, and I can't for the life of me figure out the reason why she's still there... wait, nevermind, it's fucking California. Duh. :|

don't you have the thread to finish or are you too much of a chickenshit?

Do me a favor, hold your breath.