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Pelosi and Democrats threaten funding for Iraq

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Originally posted by: JungleMan1
It's a lose-lose situation for Bush. No matter what he does, the Democrats are going to find some way to twist and turn it to make him look bad.

Uhhh, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but the Democrats don't have to make Bush look bad. He's done a fine job of that himself. That's not even in dispute.

Send more troops: "Look at what a crook Bush is for sending more voluntarily enlisted members of the military to die for Halliburton!"
Don't send more troops: "Look at what a failure Bush is for not winning the war in Iraq! Those poor Iraqi women, children, and bunny rabbits who have been taken over by the insurgency and are back under a dictatorship!"

I love you Democrats, you bitch and moan for 4 years about how badly the war in Iraq is going, and now the solution is to pull out troops, advertise to the world when you're going to pull out troops, and hope that the insurgency will magically give up and disappear :roll:

Who said anything about the violence disappearing? Maybe some people have accepted the reality that regardless of how many troops we send or how long we stay, there will still be sectarian violence in Iraq. Insurgents are part of the problem, they aren't the only problem.

If you've got any brilliant ideas other than just sending more troops (which has already been tried, and seems to have failed) then speak up. :roll:
 
Sectarian violence will never completely disappear, I think we can all accept that. I mean, let's face it, it's the Middle East; is there really any country there that is completely stable? However, we can employ improved military strategy to significantly reduce such violence, and at the same time train and equip Iraqi forces so that they are able to maintain relative stability in their own country and prevent a coup, which would put Iraq right back where it was under Saddam, but worse.

I'm not even saying that more troops is the answer, because more troops + same military strategy we have been employing before is NOT the answer. However, I can tell you with absolute certainty that if we want to stabilize Iraq, we are not going to do it by reducing the amount of troops that are there, but rather, once we move Iraq towards relative stability (and equipping Iraqis to maintain this), THEN we can reduce the amount of troops that are there.

I am not a military strategist by any means, but we need more military brainpower to evaluate HOW we are fighting the insurgency and change our strategy (without advertising it on TV). More brains + same or more amount of brawn. I don't like how Bush has fought this war, but I realize that we are there and we need to finish the job, because if we don't, we send a very very negative message to the rest of the world that we are pushovers and that we can't get the job done.

So, in short, I'm not 100% endorsing Bush's plan, but I'm 100% disapproving of Pelosi's "plan".
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
When you guys are done preaching about how bad the war is why don't you comment on the topic at hand.

Cutting funds for the war, good, bad or just politics?

If it's to clean up the corruption and incompetence... GOOD
 
Be it resolved---as bad as Saddam was---and we are now embracing dictators worse than Saddam,
deposing Saddam has made things NOW much much much worse for the Iraqi man or woman on the street.---so just judging the past 3.7 years---its a giant failure that has cost over 600,000 totally
innocent Iraqi's their lives.

Be it also resolved that if Iraq goes into a civil war---the death toll in Iraq alone will be in the multi-millions and will likely spread into neighboring countries---where multi-millions will also be
killed---and such a war could also become global. So the risks are far too real. And therefore implie
that more of the same plus 10% is unlikely to work.---and if that will not work---and its a political reality now that the USA can't and will not come with the 200,000 or more EXTRA troops needed to police the streets and control the anarchy-------only one question should be asked----HOW MUCH TIME DO WE HAVE LEFT BEFORE A CIVIL WAR ERUPTS?

So Balts question---If you've got any brilliant ideas other than just sending more troops (which has already been tried, and seems to have failed) then speak up.

I therefore offer the Lemon Law Iraqi peace plan.

Step 1---as a precondition---we impeach GWB&co.---effectively getting the bumblers out of the decision making process.---who can trust the idiots who got us into this mess to offer anything
productive---been there--done that---end of story---obvious needed step.

Step 2---Next non-neocon President keeps the existing 140,000 in place and goes hat in hand to the UN and the various surrounding nations--admitting that we blew it---and asks the international community come up with a force of about 250,000 troops to keep the peace, patrol the streets 24/7,
break the power of the local malitias, while international diplomats and the elected Iraqi government
mull the political shape of a new Iraq---meanwhile The US recalls all of our civilian-crook contractors,
and puts existing oil contracts we rigged back on open market to raise money for Iraqi rebuilding.
With the international community running the show we can then also be part of a broader concensus
that does its bit---and will not be seen as being the author of a failing plan and then drive out the terrorist who offers nothing but death and destruction.---thereby winning the phony war on terrorism as a result.

My plan has a good chance to work and to avert a civil war.-----GWB's plan has a zero% chance of working.
 
Aha, I see. So the UN (who did nothing for years and years after Saddam continually ignored resolutions) is going to garner widespread international support, countries sending thousands of their own men, to a war that the country who started it thinks is a bad idea.

Great on paper, but never going to work in reality.

Oh, also, we're going to impeach Bush on what grounds? And how will you guys like Dick Cheney being in office? After all, the VP succeeds the President in the event of impeachment.
 
GOOD PLAN. Deal with it johnny. How much partisan hackery was going on at the Dems expense for 6 years? How many additional BILLIONS has dumbya asked for since this lie.. er war started? I believe someone was actually let go because they were honest at the begining saying it would cost 200 billion or something like that. I don't remember the exact numbers, I do remember he was let go because he wasn't a parrot of the neo-cons.
I hope that smacktard in the whitehouse gets what's coming to him every single day for the next 2 years, hopefully ending with his dumb ass sitting in a jail cell.
 
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am not posting an article since it is all over the net.

Basically Pelosi and company may withhold spending on the Iraq war, specifically not funding a ?surge? if that is what Bush calls for.

My question: is this a good idea? Are they opening themselves to charges of playing politics with the military etc?

It's a great idea. If Bush thinks a "surge" is such a hot idea, he should convince Congress that the money is justified. After all, Bush pledged to act in a bi-partisan manner following his nearly 4 years of being the "decider" on Iraq. And we've seen where that's gotten us -- nowhere. How long do you let someone flail around in utter failure before you get someone else in there to fix the sh!t they've broken?
Well it seems that Pelosi thought it was a good idea once:
Tim Russert interviewing Nancy Pelosi May 30th, 2004: "What would you do? What would you do in Iraq today right now?"

Pelosi: "What I would do is, and what I think our country must do in Iraq is take an assessment of where we are, and there has to be a leveling with the American people and with Congress as to what's really happening there. It's very hard to say what you would do. We need more troops on the ground."

Russert: "Would you send more American troops in order to stabilize the situation?"

Pelosi: "Yes."
Obviously she will have to explain her flip-flop from then till now.
 
Originally posted by: Tom
What you say is "just politics", is in my opinion an attempt to speak for the voters who don't support the war, and try to get the President to consider that.

Politics isn't the negative people think it is, it's fundamental to representative democracy.
I think you misunderstand what I meant by the ?good, bad, just politics? statement.

?Just politics? Do Pelosi and the Democrats really mean to stand up to Bush and fight over this funding, or are they just posturing to make themselves look tough. And as someone pointed out set themselves up for a ?see we told you so? if the surge fails. And if it works they can claim credit as well for funding it.

It's like your parents telling you "we're not going to send you any more money while your at school" and then sending you money when you call up and claim you are broke.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am not posting an article since it is all over the net.

Basically Pelosi and company may withhold spending on the Iraq war, specifically not funding a ?surge? if that is what Bush calls for.

My question: is this a good idea? Are they opening themselves to charges of playing politics with the military etc?

It's a great idea. If Bush thinks a "surge" is such a hot idea, he should convince Congress that the money is justified. After all, Bush pledged to act in a bi-partisan manner following his nearly 4 years of being the "decider" on Iraq. And we've seen where that's gotten us -- nowhere. How long do you let someone flail around in utter failure before you get someone else in there to fix the sh!t they've broken?
Well it seems that Pelosi thought it was a good idea once:
Tim Russert interviewing Nancy Pelosi May 30th, 2004: "What would you do? What would you do in Iraq today right now?"

Pelosi: "What I would do is, and what I think our country must do in Iraq is take an assessment of where we are, and there has to be a leveling with the American people and with Congress as to what's really happening there. It's very hard to say what you would do. We need more troops on the ground."

Russert: "Would you send more American troops in order to stabilize the situation?"

Pelosi: "Yes."
Obviously she will have to explain her flip-flop from then till now.

Easy ..

Two years ago it was *somewhat* feasible to keep the sectarian violence from fermenting into pure and utter hatred.

Now? After tens of thousands have died, mostly between Sunni and Shiite maniacs? After we've failed time and time again to be able to turn the tide?

Iraq is just an endless quicksand of lives and money.

The choice now is, how many more of our soldiers will we sacrifice for an impossible goal? How many more billions will we sink into this chaos? How much longer can the american people accept utter failure?
 
Really, Pelosi changed her mind? like dumbya's doing now by adding more troops. he'd better explain this flip-flop.. I can hear it now.. what we need is a surge which means you surge.. Pelosi's interview is nearly 3 years old. And her idea was shot down. Another one of your heroes said you dont go to war with the army you want you go with the army you have, which, if attacked, is accurate, HOWEVER, if you go out and pick a fight, you better damn sure have the army you want otherwise you get your ass handed to you, one way or the other. good job siding with dumbya, et al.. You backed a real winner :disgust:
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am not posting an article since it is all over the net.

Basically Pelosi and company may withhold spending on the Iraq war, specifically not funding a ?surge? if that is what Bush calls for.

My question: is this a good idea? Are they opening themselves to charges of playing politics with the military etc?

It's a great idea. If Bush thinks a "surge" is such a hot idea, he should convince Congress that the money is justified. After all, Bush pledged to act in a bi-partisan manner following his nearly 4 years of being the "decider" on Iraq. And we've seen where that's gotten us -- nowhere. How long do you let someone flail around in utter failure before you get someone else in there to fix the sh!t they've broken?
Well it seems that Pelosi thought it was a good idea once:
Tim Russert interviewing Nancy Pelosi May 30th, 2004: "What would you do? What would you do in Iraq today right now?"

Pelosi: "What I would do is, and what I think our country must do in Iraq is take an assessment of where we are, and there has to be a leveling with the American people and with Congress as to what's really happening there. It's very hard to say what you would do. We need more troops on the ground."

Russert: "Would you send more American troops in order to stabilize the situation?"

Pelosi: "Yes."
Obviously she will have to explain her flip-flop from then till now.

It WAS a good idea in 2004 when it still could have had an effect on the war. NOW it is too little and too late to fix a rapidly declining situation.

Nice try though
 
A number of conservative commentators, like Jonah Goldberg among others, have characterized the current GWOT as the Clash of Civilizations, and have stated again and again that defeat is unacceptable.

Other commentators point out that the President?s call for sacrifice in the face of this grand clash consists, to date, of tax cuts and a request to go shopping. [Meanwhile, despite a very low unemployment rate we?re running a staggering deficit.]

Now, while recruiting rates are OK, there has been a fair bit of press about falling recruiting standards. Meanwhile, the same group of conservative commentators have not made a big push to call for their community of young, smart, college-educated / college-bound conservatives to put their lives on the line by joining the Army.

So, what?s really going on? Is the conservative claim of Clash of Civilizations just BS to bash the Democrats? Is Goldberg?s failure to enlist and failure to call for others like him to enlist:

(a) personal cowardice, which if established publicly might lead to a reduction in his speaking engagements;

(b) professional cowardice ? the fear that actually calling on his constituents to do something other than rail against Democrats might lead to loss of employment / speaking engagements;

(c) rank hypocrisy ? "a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not" according to Merriam?s online dictionary;

(d) a combination of the foregoing;

(e) something else?

Seriously, why wouldn't the Administration, if indeed this is the battle for Western Civilization as we know it, just institute the draft, and deploy 500,000 plus troops to Iraq to secure the country and really get serious about this adventure?

Uh...I know why. The Administration isn't serious. It's all about legacy protection and politics now, as if it weren't right from the beginning of this nonsensical incursion for no reason, save for the chimera of doing "something" after 9/11.

Of course our nation will never initiate a Manhattan Project-style dedication to the elimination of the "insurgency" in Iraq, which of course, is really nationalism against a occupier, not "Islamo-fascism".

The reason? No parent in their right mind would ever tolerate their child being drafted to participate in this inanity, and, to truly achieve "victory" in Iraq, that's where you would have to begin: A draft, and raising taxes dedicated to fighting the war.

So, all of this puffery and pontificating about a "surge" is little more than window dressing and empty rhetoric. As if...20,000 more US troops will ensure "victory". Even those dedicated to this Administration's war folly aren't taking this war seriously. They're not going to, nor will they ever, sacrifice their own blood and treasure to flesh out this neocon hallucination of a pacified and democratized Iraq.

The real point of wingnut hand-wringing over troop shortages:

1) To leave themselves some intellectual (sic) space in the future to escape the continued failure of their favored policies without having to admit that said policies were just wrong.

2) To leave room to blame American's who did not in fact support the war for that failure.

Which is to say, regardless of how long it takes the war to fail at any of its putative objectives, it'll still be your fault, you filthly "lib".

The sad part of all of this, is that many American's who are served up "marketing & demonization" of the chicken-hawks, and have served in the military during this time (as well as their familiies and friends) will also believe that their sacrifices are the fault of people who didn't "support" the war.

Bleating from chicken-hawks serves to encourage that sense of victimization, since it shores up support in what little is left of their base.



 
It is bush that is playing politics with the war. This whole surge thing is nothing more than a set up for the democrats. How can anyone not see this? Bush has been against more troops for years and has always said that the military has not asked for more troops. Now, when the democrats take over congress, Bush suddenly unilaterally wants more troops? Can people not see the obvious here?
 
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
A number of conservative commentators, like Jonah Goldberg among others, have characterized the current GWOT as the Clash of Civilizations, and have stated again and again that defeat is unacceptable.

Other commentators point out that the President?s call for sacrifice in the face of this grand clash consists, to date, of tax cuts and a request to go shopping. [Meanwhile, despite a very low unemployment rate we?re running a staggering deficit.]

Now, while recruiting rates are OK, there has been a fair bit of press about falling recruiting standards. Meanwhile, the same group of conservative commentators have not made a big push to call for their community of young, smart, college-educated / college-bound conservatives to put their lives on the line by joining the Army.

So, what?s really going on? Is the conservative claim of Clash of Civilizations just BS to bash the Democrats? Is Goldberg?s failure to enlist and failure to call for others like him to enlist:

(a) personal cowardice, which if established publicly might lead to a reduction in his speaking engagements;

(b) professional cowardice ? the fear that actually calling on his constituents to do something other than rail against Democrats might lead to loss of employment / speaking engagements;

(c) rank hypocrisy ? "a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not" according to Merriam?s online dictionary;

(d) a combination of the foregoing;

(e) something else?

Seriously, why wouldn't the Administration, if indeed this is the battle for Western Civilization as we know it, just institute the draft, and deploy 500,000 plus troops to Iraq to secure the country and really get serious about this adventure?

Uh...I know why. The Administration isn't serious. It's all about legacy protection and politics now, as if it weren't right from the beginning of this nonsensical incursion for no reason, save for the chimera of doing "something" after 9/11.

Of course our nation will never initiate a Manhattan Project-style dedication to the elimination of the "insurgency" in Iraq, which of course, is really nationalism against a occupier, not "Islamo-fascism".

The reason? No parent in their right mind would ever tolerate their child being drafted to participate in this inanity, and, to truly achieve "victory" in Iraq, that's where you would have to begin: A draft, and raising taxes dedicated to fighting the war.

So, all of this puffery and pontificating about a "surge" is little more than window dressing and empty rhetoric. As if...20,000 more US troops will ensure "victory". Even those dedicated to this Administration's war folly aren't taking this war seriously. They're not going to, nor will they ever, sacrifice their own blood and treasure to flesh out this neocon hallucination of a pacified and democratized Iraq.

The real point of wingnut hand-wringing over troop shortages:

1) To leave themselves some intellectual (sic) space in the future to escape the continued failure of their favored policies without having to admit that said policies were just wrong.

2) To leave room to blame American's who did not in fact support the war for that failure.

Which is to say, regardless of how long it takes the war to fail at any of its putative objectives, it'll still be your fault, you filthly "lib".

The sad part of all of this, is that many American's who are served up "marketing & demonization" of the chicken-hawks, and have served in the military during this time (as well as their familiies and friends) will also believe that their sacrifices are the fault of people who didn't "support" the war.

Bleating from chicken-hawks serves to encourage that sense of victimization, since it shores up support in what little is left of their base.

Wow! :thumbsup:
 
To non-Prof John---who writes regarding the surge--It's a great idea. If Bush thinks a "surge" is such a hot idea, he should convince Congress that the money is justified. After all, Bush pledged to act in a bi-partisan manner following his nearly 4 years of being the "decider" on Iraq. And we've seen where that's gotten us -- nowhere.

If any believe a word GWB's says about pledges---of being bi-partisan---they should remember he billed himself as a uniter not a divider---and then proceeded to totally ignore democrats for six solid years.---he even ignored republicans like John McCain. Paying him lip service but getting his own way in the end.

And the idea he will now be bi-partisan--even in the face of the reality of a democratic majority in the house---is something I very much doubt will be anything more than the usual GWB doublespeak.

But time will somewhat tell---but I will predict he is going to be even more partisan, non-co-operative,
and more dictatorial in the near future. Right now GWB is not part of the solution to problems--GWB is the exactly the roadblock to solving problems.

But to put things in better perspective----a PLEDGE or a political SLOGAN is a very good political artrifice to get votes---get enough votes---and you are suddenly in charge.

And now get a chance to advance ACTIONS---or PROGRAMS---or set POLICY---on a domestic or international stage.---and the proof there is in providing positive RESULTS.

Your delusion non-Prof John is that the SLOGAN or the PLEDGE has anything to do with the POSITIVE RESULTS.-------so give GWB an A on pledges and slogans and a F on POSITIVE RESULTS.------------as the election of 11/06 show---the American people wised up and voted against GWB RESULTS.---------new slogans will not cure the problem.---no matter how much you want to believe.
 
I watched Black Hawk Down last weekend, and it was impossible not to be reminded of our soldiers in Iraq. The situation isn't as bad for them yet, but it still seems like Bush's strategy of feeding more bodies into the meat grinder is equally doomed.

Since we can't field 400,000 troops or whatever level it would really take to stabilize the situation in Iraq (if any level could), what is the point of spending more money and lives with no plan beyond hoping for a miracle?
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
When you guys are done preaching about how bad the war is why don't you comment on the topic at hand.

Cutting funds for the war, good, bad or just politics?

Of course its politics.

Whether its or good or bad, meaning will the Dems profit politically, remains to be seen.

I'd guess that if they are going to stop him from "surging" the military, then they are going to have to come up with their solution.

Fern
 
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
I watched Black Hawk Down last weekend, and it was impossible not to be reminded of our soldiers in Iraq. The situation isn't as bad for them yet, but it still seems like Bush's strategy of feeding more bodies into the meat grinder is equally doomed.

Since we can't field 400,000 troops or whatever level it would really take to stabilize the situation in Iraq (if any level could), what is the point of spending more money and lives with no plan beyond hoping for a miracle?

Agreed. Great film, even greater book, one of the finest I've ever read. I think the reason that so many of our guys survived that gauntlet was the Delta operators that basically took command of small squads, improvising, finding cover, and filling in the gaps in the plan/chain of command.

On the Iraq front, 400k troops *might* be enough to stem the tide of violence washing over the country, but is it worth it? I think it's akin to a ruptured artery, the sucker is just going to keep bleeding no matter how much gauze you put over it. As soon as we withdrew our troops, the sectarian violence would rise back to it's current levels, or worse. Not to mention that we've not been proven to reduce violence on any scale.
 
To Fern---I have predicted that GWB will get the congressional go along for the surge---after GWB does some groveling to get it.---that process may be what you refer to as politics.

Then after another six months or so of the situation getting steadily worse----in other words--- NO RESULTS---it then ceases to be a political question ---it will be a matter that GWB will be totally discredited.---just because congress is unable to come up with a politically sellable plan to extracts us from the mess we are in does NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT GWB IS A TOTAL IDIOT.

Your implication is that if someone throws Lois Lane off the top of a building---and GWB in the guise of superman saves her from going splat on the sidewalk---GWB is the hero.---and if GWB in the guise of superman fails to save the falling Lois Lane---he can rely on a congress to back stop him.

But if congress in the guise of superman is unable to then swoop in when GWB fails, then it somehow excuses GWB. When the fault lies with the POLICY OF throwing Lois Lane off the building in the first place.---and GWB WAS THE IDIOT WHO THREW LOIS OFF THE BUILDING IN THE FIRST PLACE.
 
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
When you guys are done preaching about how bad the war is why don't you comment on the topic at hand.

Cutting funds for the war, good, bad or just politics?

Of course its politics.

Whether its or good or bad, meaning will the Dems profit politically, remains to be seen.

I'd guess that if they are going to stop him from "surging" the military, then they are going to have to come up with their solution.

Fern

As if a surge is a "solution" It's not going to work. Just more people and money wasted.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Fern---I have predicted that GWB will get the congressional go along for the surge---after GWB does some groveling to get it.---that process may be what you refer to as politics.

Then after another six months or so of the situation getting steadily worse----in other words--- NO RESULTS---it then ceases to be a political question ---it will be a matter that GWB will be totally discredited.---just because congress is unable to come up with a politically sellable plan to extracts us from the mess we are in does NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT GWB IS A TOTAL IDIOT.

Your implication is that if someone throws Lois Lane off the top of a building---and GWB in the guise of superman saves her from going splat on the sidewalk---GWB is the hero.---and if GWB in the guise of superman fails to save the falling Lois Lane---he can rely on a congress to back stop him.

But if congress in the guise of superman is unable to then swoop in when GWB fails, then it somehow excuses GWB. When the fault lies with the POLICY OF throwing Lois Lane off the building in the first place.---and GWB WAS THE IDIOT WHO THREW LOIS OFF THE BUILDING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Hi LL,

That's a pretty fancy anology.

But yeah, I would guess he'll get it from Congress. When, and I don't think it will, it doesn't work the'll be able to slam him further.

However, I think at some point the American people will hold the Dems responsible to some extent for the outcome/situation. No, they can never be held responsible for "starting it". But, as in real life, in politics eventually you inheret the problems of your predesesors (sp? boy I butchered that word 🙂 ). People eventually tire of the "Well, I didn't start it" thingy and begin looking to you to solve it.

I suspect Pelosi & Company will be slick enough to leave it upon GWB until after the '08 elections. In other words, they know better than to charge in now and try and take any control. Just give GWB a little more leash, all the while expressing doubts about the success of his efforts. and they'll be able to keep that tar baby outta their hands.

Fern

 
Originally posted by: Bird222
Originally posted by: catnap1972
And no doubt six months from now (after that money along with the 20,000 troops are gone) we'll be right back in this same place again.

QFT

What I'm REALLY wondering is if nothing's changed (or it's gotten worse) in the six months Lil'Georgie is getting to keep his legacy from turning into a complete sack of crap will the peanut gallery (here) finally agree that enough is enough or do we just throw some more money (and warm bodies) at the problem ad nauseum?
 
20K troops are a drop in a bucket. It's lame. We need to redeploy to Iraq's borders and ports, to contain the mess and keep outsiders out, and let Iraqis fight it out among themselves. They will sort it out themselves eventually.
 
Why is it that people who are all for war are rarely the ones to step up and fight? Prof. John, are you going to be 1 of the 20,000 going to Iraq or are you preaching from the comfort of your home?
 
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