- Oct 9, 2002
- 28,298
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PLEASE help me out of an expensive jam. If you know how to prove or check if this is an engineering sample motherboard without opening the case, PLEASE read/respond!
My brother and I ordered a PC (for the parts) from PCUSA.com AKA PC Source. They had bad Reseller Ratings but they came highly regarded from a few friends (for cheap parts). They're in Norcross, GA, and I live in Newnan, GA. We did a pick-up to save a few bucks (BIG mistake. Took all day to find the place no thanks to mapquest.com). It was tough dealing with them because everyone spoke broken English.
PCUSA is one of those crappy companies that stick a tamper-proof sticker on every case they sell, EVEN INCOMPLETE BAREBONE SYSTEMS (Which you'd HAVE to open to FINISH IT)! If you take the sticker off, you void your waranty. Because we ordered it just for parts, we opened it to install an AGP8x GeForce4 Ti4200 before plugging it in. The motherboard is an MSI nForce2 K7N2G-LISR (Deluxe model with Serial-ATA RAID, Firewire and digital audio). I ran into a list of issues:
We noticed that the S-Bracket for optical and digital-audio connectors was not included. The user's manual stated that it was "optional" because the same manual also coveres the lower-end model (K7N2G-L). I later confirmed with MSI that all K7N2G-LISR boards should have it.
We checked and the installed Thermaltake Volcano-II is rated for the AthlonXP 1500+, not the installed 2000+ (The website configurator did not reflect this and allowed misconfiguring by selecting the wrong default heatsink).
Finally, when we turned it on we ultimately decided to do so without the GeForce4 Ti4200 installed. Before the "MSI" splash-screen, I recieved the message: "Engineering Release - Not For Production Use". This says, in no uncertain terms, "DO NOT SELL A COMPUTER WITH THIS MOTHERBOARD IN IT."
Upon entry into the CMOS setup program, we get nearly-immediate freezes when accessing the standard setup options.
The "Initilize Display First" option just said "I " with the option "[P Slot]" (Normally, AGP or PCI Slot, defaults to PCI on this board) and corrupted characters when you bring up the other selections for that option.
So we checked ResellerRatings.com and discovered that they were extremely anal about the whole VOID sitcker thing, so we decided not to mention anything on the phone other than the message and the heatsink rating mis-match. We were trying to convince them to allow a motherboard-swap through mail to save driving time and shipping costs and get their "blessing" to open the case (someone else on ResellerRatings.com got them to do it for a stick of memory).
They responded to the request saying "No. That would require you to break the seal and void your waranty." CRAP! We couldn't call MSI for more information because it was the weekend, so we had to give it a little time. Anyway, my brother called PCUSA again on Monday and THANKFULLY the tech told him to try reseating the memory. If they say anything about the "void" sticker now, their tech told me to open it. After that, he was instructed to bring it in so they could do something about it. After telling them that it was a 6-hour trip, they sounded like they were perfectly willing to make the motherboard swap. We made it clear that we could not drive such a distance to be turned away.
We drive all the way up there just to encounter one of those hardass types that makes up whatever the hell he wants to dismiss everything you say in broken English (which makes disputing it difficult). He claims that the message is normal, all OEM boards say that, and that it simply needs a BIOS update. I told him that we are enthusiasts buying an enthusiast's setup and we are A+ certified and that we know a respectable OEM would not sell computers which are "not for production use". He should have realized immediately that he can't make up bogus crap without shooting himself in the foot, and he should avoid bad Reseller Ratings by swapping my board and ditching this one on someone else who will believe his crap. Instead, he continued. When asked if it was supposed to include the sound bracket and told that every other K7N2G-LISR does except MAYBE "Engineering Samples" he immediately said "It's optional." I called MSI in the store from my wireless phone and MSI told me that it was supposed to be included. They helpfully offered to ship a replacement immediately! I asked about the BIOS message and was told that there are some out there like that (obviously, but they aren't supposed to be retail or OEM) but that was all they could tell me. The PC Source guy just continued telling me that they are all that way and that I need a BIOS update and refused to acknowledge my concerns over pre-production non-final hardware.
I mentioned the heatsink. He interrupted me after the first mention of "Volcano II" and just said "No Volcano II. We only use Volcano 8. We just too lazy to change website." I have since checked the website. It is definately NOT a Volcano 8. It looked like a Volcano III. We brought up the BIOS corruption and told them that is was repeatable so they asked us to show them the option. IT WAS NO LONGER CORRUPTED AND WE COULDN'T PROVE ANYTHING. !@#$ So they told us the memory could be bad and that they would replace it. Then they said they had no more DDR333 memory and would instead upgrade us to dual-channel DDR 266. They've now "rail-roaded" us into buying four times the amount of memory we originally ordered, but we accepted just in case memory was the problem, or to prove that it was not.
We never checked the motherboard chips themselves for an "Engineering Sample" marking because after hearing that we could bring it back, we thought we were getting a replacement.
Wish I had checked, because now it has another damn sticker on it! Even if the hardware is finalized, I don't want pre-release MSI engineering.
I don't want to be stuck with an unstable pre-release board. PLEASE HELP ME FIND A WAY TO IDENTIFY IT AS SUCH WITHOUT OPENING THE CASE! I have a few ideas:
Anand has a picture of an A03 engineering sample MCP-T
HERE and has other mentions of his pre-release board (And mentions a 3COM performance issue fixed in final hardware. Just the kind of thing I'm worried about)
How can I identify the "stepping" or anything else to indicate this board's maturity without opening the case? We fully intend to ditch this crappy case & PSU as soon as all the issues are settled and I've done everything I can with the PCUSA.com / PC Source guys, but until then I CAN'T OPEN IT.
The guy at the business seemed to have a habit of making stuff up to explain away things as if none of their customers would understand that he was logically wrong. I saw his interaction with other customers and he even tried to tell me that MSI botched 90% of the original nForce boards, ruined their reputation with gamers, and is now a crappy company(!).
Please help us out of this jam! I obviously need proof to worm my way through such a liar.
My brother and I ordered a PC (for the parts) from PCUSA.com AKA PC Source. They had bad Reseller Ratings but they came highly regarded from a few friends (for cheap parts). They're in Norcross, GA, and I live in Newnan, GA. We did a pick-up to save a few bucks (BIG mistake. Took all day to find the place no thanks to mapquest.com). It was tough dealing with them because everyone spoke broken English.
PCUSA is one of those crappy companies that stick a tamper-proof sticker on every case they sell, EVEN INCOMPLETE BAREBONE SYSTEMS (Which you'd HAVE to open to FINISH IT)! If you take the sticker off, you void your waranty. Because we ordered it just for parts, we opened it to install an AGP8x GeForce4 Ti4200 before plugging it in. The motherboard is an MSI nForce2 K7N2G-LISR (Deluxe model with Serial-ATA RAID, Firewire and digital audio). I ran into a list of issues:
We noticed that the S-Bracket for optical and digital-audio connectors was not included. The user's manual stated that it was "optional" because the same manual also coveres the lower-end model (K7N2G-L). I later confirmed with MSI that all K7N2G-LISR boards should have it.
We checked and the installed Thermaltake Volcano-II is rated for the AthlonXP 1500+, not the installed 2000+ (The website configurator did not reflect this and allowed misconfiguring by selecting the wrong default heatsink).
Finally, when we turned it on we ultimately decided to do so without the GeForce4 Ti4200 installed. Before the "MSI" splash-screen, I recieved the message: "Engineering Release - Not For Production Use". This says, in no uncertain terms, "DO NOT SELL A COMPUTER WITH THIS MOTHERBOARD IN IT."
Upon entry into the CMOS setup program, we get nearly-immediate freezes when accessing the standard setup options.
The "Initilize Display First" option just said "I " with the option "[P Slot]" (Normally, AGP or PCI Slot, defaults to PCI on this board) and corrupted characters when you bring up the other selections for that option.
So we checked ResellerRatings.com and discovered that they were extremely anal about the whole VOID sitcker thing, so we decided not to mention anything on the phone other than the message and the heatsink rating mis-match. We were trying to convince them to allow a motherboard-swap through mail to save driving time and shipping costs and get their "blessing" to open the case (someone else on ResellerRatings.com got them to do it for a stick of memory).
They responded to the request saying "No. That would require you to break the seal and void your waranty." CRAP! We couldn't call MSI for more information because it was the weekend, so we had to give it a little time. Anyway, my brother called PCUSA again on Monday and THANKFULLY the tech told him to try reseating the memory. If they say anything about the "void" sticker now, their tech told me to open it. After that, he was instructed to bring it in so they could do something about it. After telling them that it was a 6-hour trip, they sounded like they were perfectly willing to make the motherboard swap. We made it clear that we could not drive such a distance to be turned away.
We drive all the way up there just to encounter one of those hardass types that makes up whatever the hell he wants to dismiss everything you say in broken English (which makes disputing it difficult). He claims that the message is normal, all OEM boards say that, and that it simply needs a BIOS update. I told him that we are enthusiasts buying an enthusiast's setup and we are A+ certified and that we know a respectable OEM would not sell computers which are "not for production use". He should have realized immediately that he can't make up bogus crap without shooting himself in the foot, and he should avoid bad Reseller Ratings by swapping my board and ditching this one on someone else who will believe his crap. Instead, he continued. When asked if it was supposed to include the sound bracket and told that every other K7N2G-LISR does except MAYBE "Engineering Samples" he immediately said "It's optional." I called MSI in the store from my wireless phone and MSI told me that it was supposed to be included. They helpfully offered to ship a replacement immediately! I asked about the BIOS message and was told that there are some out there like that (obviously, but they aren't supposed to be retail or OEM) but that was all they could tell me. The PC Source guy just continued telling me that they are all that way and that I need a BIOS update and refused to acknowledge my concerns over pre-production non-final hardware.
I mentioned the heatsink. He interrupted me after the first mention of "Volcano II" and just said "No Volcano II. We only use Volcano 8. We just too lazy to change website." I have since checked the website. It is definately NOT a Volcano 8. It looked like a Volcano III. We brought up the BIOS corruption and told them that is was repeatable so they asked us to show them the option. IT WAS NO LONGER CORRUPTED AND WE COULDN'T PROVE ANYTHING. !@#$ So they told us the memory could be bad and that they would replace it. Then they said they had no more DDR333 memory and would instead upgrade us to dual-channel DDR 266. They've now "rail-roaded" us into buying four times the amount of memory we originally ordered, but we accepted just in case memory was the problem, or to prove that it was not.
We never checked the motherboard chips themselves for an "Engineering Sample" marking because after hearing that we could bring it back, we thought we were getting a replacement.
Wish I had checked, because now it has another damn sticker on it! Even if the hardware is finalized, I don't want pre-release MSI engineering.I don't want to be stuck with an unstable pre-release board. PLEASE HELP ME FIND A WAY TO IDENTIFY IT AS SUCH WITHOUT OPENING THE CASE! I have a few ideas:
Anand has a picture of an A03 engineering sample MCP-T
HERE and has other mentions of his pre-release board (And mentions a 3COM performance issue fixed in final hardware. Just the kind of thing I'm worried about)
How can I identify the "stepping" or anything else to indicate this board's maturity without opening the case? We fully intend to ditch this crappy case & PSU as soon as all the issues are settled and I've done everything I can with the PCUSA.com / PC Source guys, but until then I CAN'T OPEN IT.
The guy at the business seemed to have a habit of making stuff up to explain away things as if none of their customers would understand that he was logically wrong. I saw his interaction with other customers and he even tried to tell me that MSI botched 90% of the original nForce boards, ruined their reputation with gamers, and is now a crappy company(!).
Please help us out of this jam! I obviously need proof to worm my way through such a liar.
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