PC's vs Workstations

[abhong]

Contemplating whether to go PC or Workstation...

doing mostly vector graphics and photoshop...
i personally use a lot of Corel Draw and Photoshop... some functions take too long and holds up my PC (P4 something or rather..., ABIT IC7-G, 1Gig PC3200, ATI Radeon 9800...)

i also read somewhere the workstation graphic cards are more for accuracy and detail where gaming is more for rendering fast 3D images... noticed also that the workstation graphic cards are around 64MB or 128MB... vs all this new SLI's, 256MB's, and a heck of a lot of buzz...

eitherway, budget about $3000~$3500

PC...
ASUS A8N-SLI Premium
AMD Athlon X2 4800
1GB Crucial Ballistic PC-3200 (a bit unsure here... )
WD Raptors
GeForce 6800 Ultra x2
+ DVD's, CDRW's, & miscellaneous blings...


Workstation...
ASUS K8N-DL
Opteron 252 x2 (willing to try dual... braggin rights!?...)
1 GB Corsair PC3200 ECC...
WD Raptors...
256 MB ATI Fire GL V7100
+ DVD's, CDRW's, & miscellaneous blings...

any thoughts and opinions will be greatly appreciated...

by the way, AMD virgin here...

 

[deadmantyping]

workstation

 

[batmanuel]

There really isn't much benefit going from a X2 to dual single-core opterons. You'd get more memory bandwidth with the dual Opteron board, since each Opteron is feeding from its own set of memory banks (as opposed to the X2, where the two cores are sharing memory banks), but then again you wind up with more latency with the registered ECC RAM the Opterons require, so it might be a wash (especially if you couple the X2 with some super low latency RAM).

You can also pretty easily softmod the 6800-series cards into Quadros. Based on what Duvie says, they work just as well as the Quadro 4000. The Quadro cards tend to run 3D modeling and CAD apps better than the FireGLs because nVidia hardware typically runs OpenGL better than ATi hardware (which is the same reason you get much higher Doom 3 scores for nVidia cards).

It also might be better to drop the SLI'd 6800 Ultra in favor of a 7800GT or GTX. Not only do the 7800 cards perform just as good as the SLI'd 6800Us in most cases, but a single 7800-series card is quite a bit cheaper than dual 6800Us. I'm not sure if you can softmod the 7800 cards yet, but I'm sure they are working on it.

I'd also get more RAM, at least 2GBs. Most workstation apps love to be given more RAM to play with, so buy as much as you can afford.

 

[Unkno]

If you don't game whatsoever, go with the workstation, also as stated, the more ram the better. I think even 4GB ram might be good too

 

[imported_Kensai]

The Dual Opteron system is relatively useless... Go with a single Opteron 265-270-275 since it's dual core and it will leave you with a better upgrade path for the future.
Get at least 2GB of ram and a 7800gTX

 

[abhong]

Ok... workstation for now, (we'll go for the gaming PC later...)

nobody seems to mention the Xeon option here...
has intel slipped from the pedastal?
seems that there is overwhelming support for AMD...

Opteron is my best choice?

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: abhong
Ok... workstation for now, (we'll go for the gaming PC later...)

nobody seems to mention the Xeon option here...
has intel slipped from the pedastal?
seems that there is overwhelming support for AMD...

Opteron is my best choice?

Dual core Opteron > Opteron > Xeon (Non-MP verions)

Xeon MP >> Opteron
Price of Xeon MP = 5 X Opteron.

 

[abhong]

Dual Core Opterons (Opteron 270)
can i use it with my choice of MB? (asus K8N-DL) or is there better?

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: abhong
Dual Core Opterons (Opteron 270)
can i use it with my choice of MB? (asus K8N-DL) or is there better?

The Asus K8N-DL is the *best* standard ATX dual Opteron board.

You could always take a look at the Tyan K8WE but that will force you to a large E-ATX case.

It will still work with both the K8N-DL and the K8WE.

 

[Bona Fide]

Originally posted by: Kensai

Originally posted by: abhong
Dual Core Opterons (Opteron 270)
can i use it with my choice of MB? (asus K8N-DL) or is there better?

The Asus K8N-DL is the *best* standard ATX dual Opteron board.

You could always take a look at the Tyan K8WE but that will force you to a large E-ATX case.

It will still work with both the K8N-DL and the K8WE.

Not to mention that Tyan boards *usually* cost more. But that's the price you pay for rock-solid stability and support. Go with the ASUS board, and I'll just reiterate what's already been said.

- Drop the 6800 Ultra's and get a 7800GTX.
- Get as much RAM as humanly possible

 

[abhong]

making my wish list...

what's Sata II?
Sata 150 or Sata 3.0 GB's?

is Raptor + RAID 0+1 overkill?

 

[abhong]

Ooops, ignore the last one...

did some reading...

 

[abhong]

why will Dual Core single Opteron leave me with better upgrade path?

 

[batmanuel]

Originally posted by: abhong
why will Dual Core single Opteron leave me with better upgrade path?

Theoretically, it allows you run two processor cores now and gives you an open socket for later upgrade on a dualie mobo. Later, when the prices on the DC Opterons drop you can simply grab another identical DC Opteron into the second socket and you will have quad processor goodness without having to remove and sell a pair of single core opterons a few years down the line (and its possible that by then dual core will be so common that single core processors - even Opterons - will be worth next to nothing when it comes to resale value).

The big problem right now is that a single dual core Opteron 270 is going to cost you around $1k and it only runs a 2.0GHz, which is the same clock speed as a X2 3800+. Your best bang for the buck is to get a 4400+ for $560 or so. You get the same 1MB of cache per core as you do on the Opteron, plus the non-ECC RAM is going to be lower latency (and cheaper) for the X2. The motherboard will also be significantly cheaper and you won't need a special case or PSU. Even though the server boards are deigned to be rock solid, the stability of a quality correctly configured desktop board is nothing to be sneezed at, either. If you really need speed, then you ought to be able to OC that 4400+ to at least 2.4GHz for a bit of an added boost. A X2 4400+ at 2.4GHz or above will leave even the Opteron 275 in the dust for a fraction of the cost.

I'd only go for an Opteron board now if I was building a server or I had the buring need for a two socket dual core system and cost was not a concern (if I was ILM, for example). If you're not charging clients hundreds of dollars per billable hour, then I'd stick with an X2 for now. Otherwise, you're just throwing money away needlessly.

In a few years the Athlon X4 quad core chips (or what ever the wind up calling them) ought to be out with DDR2 (maybe even DDR3) memory, higher clock speeds and a new socket, so you'll probably be wanting to upgrade your whole PC by then anyway when you get to the point you'll need quad core power.

 

[Cerb]

Um, maybe I'm missing something, but why a Fire GL for Corel Draw? A Matrox would be a great choice if you want to spend some money, or a gaming card for, well, gaming.

W/o some 3D work for the video card, what's the point?

BTW, I'd go for the PC version--more processing power at a lower cost. Crucial is definitely not a bad way to go for RAM.

If you go with PCI-E video, then you don't need to worry about an upgrade path. Given costs, as long as you have a good ATX2 PSU, you can replace the mobo and CPU if needed.

 

[abhong]

Corel does not take up much but i am a bit annoyed when certain tasks leave me drumming my fingers for up to 20 min!

i have dabbled in building PC's and got to enjoy it but i am realizing that an old Dell Precision Workstation that i have, a P2 600MHz is running quite stable till now where the more recent P4 and Dual P3 on Abit VP6 have given me some headaches...
have to admit, some problems are more HD related and such... but... it adds to the frustration.

perhaps its my lack of experience... but recently, when "My Precioussssssss", what was my pride and joy started to give me problems and crashes often in middle of Corel and Photoshop, i got frustrated and was looking into workstations, strictly for work...

i do think that i want to go for the 7800GTX i/o the Fire GL card...

Thanks Batmanuel for the detailed info...

 

[abhong]

BTW, thanks y'all for all the info...

 

[OdiN]

Yeah go for a Matrox for 2D quality or if you game then get a gaming card (2D will suck though).

The FireGL is worthless for Corel Draw.

 

[batmanuel]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Yeah go for a Matrox for 2D quality or if you game then get a gaming card (2D will suck though).

The FireGL is worthless for Corel Draw.

I'd avoid the Matrox cards like the plague right now. Even the Parahelias (except maybe the new AVPe) can't do Direct X 9 in hardware. This could be a BIG issue in the future with Windows Vista, which needs DX9 to run Aero Glass in hardware accelerated mode. The new display API that does all the work (Avalon) will even be released for XP, to help increase the chances that future versions of apps like Corel Draw and Adobe Illustrator will be developed with the capability of using that API to accelerate vector drawing operations with the graphics card. This is a few years down the road, of course, but it seems to me that anyone buying a graphics card now should be making sure to get DX9 hardware support, even if that means getting a lowly vanilla 9600/X300.

Anyway, the Matrox IQ advantage doesn't carry over into the new world of LCDs with DVI. Nowadays, any decent nVidia or ATi card will look just as flawless through DVI as a Matrox card will, since there are no longer any analog to digital conversions to screw up the IQ with DVI. The only possible exceptions are the GeForce FX cards, which had some crappy TMDS transmitters that causes grief with some higer resolution panels. Even $75 ATi vanilla X300 will have an integrated 165MHz TMDS that has no 2D image quality issues with a large panel like a 2405FPW. Contrast that with the G550 from Matrox that will run you around $90, only has 32MB of memory and will only go as high as 1280x1024 through the DVI connection (although it will go much higher on VGA).

Matrox was a great card manufacturer back in its day, but I can't recommend thier stuff even to people just doing 2D nowadays. They've really stagnated while ATi and nVidia have made huge strides in their 2D IQ, so now there just isn't enough of an improvement with Matrox to justify giving up the 3D capabilities of the other manufacturers.

 

[abhong]

think i will go for the 7800GTX...
i want to try the Workstation...

i will look into the gaming system later...
i guess i can always use the 7800GTX on my later gaming rig, right?

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: abhong
think i will go for the 7800GTX...
i want to try the Workstation...

i will look into the gaming system later...
i guess i can always use the 7800GTX on my later gaming rig, right?

Of course.

 

[abhong]

all set then...

let me finish my wishlist and give me your feedback guys...

thanks

 

[abhong]

here's the prelim choices... give me your blessings...

Asus K8N-DL
Opteron 270
4x 1GB Corsair XMS DDR 400, ECC, Reg
2x WD Caviar SE 160GB SATA 3.0Gb/s
EVGA GeForce 7800GTX, 256 MB
DVD burner...
Case...
PSU...

 

[imported_Kensai]

:thumbsup:

Nec 3540A
Antec P180
Antec 550W EPS12V

 

[gsellis]

Change the drives to 250's (just above $100 ea). I would consider getting a third drive, (OS, storage, scratch for render). The speed limit is at the drive, so SATAII, SATA, and PATA are all going to transfer in the same range. Only if you go to 15k SCSI U320 will you see a speed bump (10k is a little bump). BUT, drive size vs price goes through the roof.

Pioneer 110 or 109 over NEC. The 110 may now write DVD-RAM, so if you job with Apple folks, you will be doing good. Only significant advantage of NEC over Pioneer is bitsetting, which is only required for setting a booktype to DVD-ROM for video disc IF you have older settop players to support. On a workstation, since you are multi-tasking anyway, you tend to ignore write speed as you can do other things while creating disc.