PCIe 4.0 GPUs

[Cableman]

With PCIe 4.0 boards and CPUs around the corner, I expect to start seeing updated GPUs soon. I searched for information on backwards compatibility with PCIe 3 and I found some conflicting information. Some sources are saying that PCIe 4.0 GPUs won't work in PCIe 3 boards. Is that true or is the new standard going to be backwards compatible like it has been up to this point?

Also, how close are we to saturating PCIe 3 with the current GPUs? Should we expect the next generation of Nvidia and AMD GPUs to really need PCIe 4.0 or would they still work fine on PCIe 3?

 

[UsandThem]

Some sources are saying that PCIe 4.0 GPUs won't work in PCIe 3 boards. Is that true or is the new standard going to be backwards compatible like it has been up to this point?

Highly unlikely. What are the sources that you're reading that claim this?

https://www.plda.com/blog/market-ready-conquer-pcie-40-challenges

Also, how close are we to saturating PCIe 3 with the current GPUs? Should we expect the next generation of Nvidia and AMD GPUs to really need PCIe 4.0 or would they still work fine on PCIe 3?

Not even close. In fact, a person can run a GPU like a GTX 1080ti in x8 mode instead of x16, and the performance differences are within the margin of error.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/225...-x8-x8-dual-titan-v-bandwidth-limit-test.html

 

[Cableman]

Highly unlikely. What are the sources that you're reading that claim this?

https://www.plda.com/blog/market-ready-conquer-pcie-40-challenges



Not even close. In fact, a person can run a GPU like a GTX 1080ti in x8 mode instead of x16, and the performance differences are within the margin of error.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/225...-x8-x8-dual-titan-v-bandwidth-limit-test.html

Perfect, thank you.

I was reading this (not sure how reliable it is or if anything has changed since it was posted):

"PCIe 4.0 will usher in a new connector, but it is backwards compatible with PCIe 3.0 cards. But, PCIe 4.0-based cards will not work with the old PCIe 3.0 ports."

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/46190/pcie-4-feature-16gt-new-connector-arrive-2017/index.html

Last year I bought a system with an i7-8700 and I am not planning on replacing it soon. I just want to make sure that the PCIe 3 will not prevent me from upgrading the GPU in the future (bandwidth or compatibility wise).

 

[LTC8K6]

Perfect, thank you.

I was reading this (not sure how reliable it is or if anything has changed since it was posted):

"PCIe 4.0 will usher in a new connector, but it is backwards compatible with PCIe 3.0 cards. But, PCIe 4.0-based cards will not work with the old PCIe 3.0 ports."

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/46190/pcie-4-feature-16gt-new-connector-arrive-2017/index.html

Last year I bought a system with an i7-8700 and I am not planning on replacing it soon. I just want to make sure that the PCIe 3 will not prevent me from upgrading the GPU in the future (bandwidth or compatibility wise).

That's an old article though. It reads more like it's talking about PCIE5.

I think PCIE4 is the same connectors, just different signaling rates.

This Tom's article indicates that you might get PCIE4 on AMD boards via a BIOS update.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-pcie-4.0-motherboard,38401.html

 

[Thrashard]

How long will PCIE4 video cards last when this should have been implemented years ago and PCIE5 is ready to come out ? These companies are all screwing with us and it's a chase the carrot game out our expense.

I'm not running any m.2 SSD but heard there is a bottleneck and speculation how PCIE4 will be for m.2 SSD to remove the bottleneck; especially for Servers, and PCIE5 will be for Video cards - especially for 8K gaming.

 

[jpiniero]

How long will PCIE4 video cards last when this should have been implemented years ago and PCIE5 is ready to come out ?

Define "last". You would be able to use PCIe 4 cards in PCIe 5 just fine.

 

[Thrashard]

Some articles I read were a bit old, but there was speculation how they will skip over PCIE4 and go right into PCIE5 for video cards.

PCIE slots run at 16x, I'd have to assume PCIE5 could be 32x

 

[jpiniero]

Some articles I read were a bit old, but there was speculation how they will skip over PCIE4 and go right into PCIE5 for video cards.

PCIE slots run at 16x, I'd have to assume PCIE5 could be 32x

5.0 doesn't add lanes, just that each lane at 5.0 is double the bandwidth of 4.0. 3.0 x16 isn't really a bottleneck at this point so card makers could even just stick with 4.0 x16 for awhile.

 

[Thrashard]

I'm going to wait till 5.0 is fully cracked in as 2025 approaches. Currently I'm in process of upgrading GPU and Monitor.

My setup fully supports 40 lanes and motherboard supports 3x PCIE 3.0 16x slots. I doubt I'll run SLI/Crossfire unless I really need it, so using 1 GPU will take x16 lanes.

If for whatever reason I decide to get a PCIE expansion card to run m.2 SSD, - will that use 16 lanes ? or run in separate config off the chip set and not CPU ?


>>

Highly unlikely. What are the sources that you're reading that claim this?

https://www.plda.com/blog/market-ready-conquer-pcie-40-challenges

I see what's going on here. When Ivy Bridge Extreme and Asus x79-Deluxe came out or around this time it said PCIE 3.0 ready but it still was never fully released yet.

4960x is rated Bus Speed - 5 GT/s DMI2 - and future release i7-7800X - 8 GT/s DMI3. So I am not really running the full PCIE 3.0 potential 5 > 8

I read something about AMD already has PCIE 4 boards out now and would just require a BIOS update. This is all new and confusing to me, especially talk about 64 and even 128 Lanes on future AMD chips

 

[Thrashard]

How does this all mesh together in the future if AMD is talking about 64 to 128 Lanes ?

If PCIE 5 offers x16 for the Slot itself but not additional lanes except for more bandwidth ?

There is always talk about the future of APU's , this would be a totally different architecture though with no separate CPU.

 

[DrMrLordX]

For anyone curious about PCIe 4.0 cards, all you have to do is look at Radeon Instinct:

https://www.amd.com/en/products/professional-graphics/instinct-mi50

Looks identical to a full-length PCIe 3.0 card to me. It also operates in PCIe4.0 and 3.0 slots (check the specifications/board specifications).

I think PCIE4 is the same connectors, just different signaling rates.

Sure seems that way.

 

[Thrashard]

I saw mention of this earlier and assuming the beefier version Mi60 will be the 32GB needed for 4K gaming.

Things will get interesting. I highly suggest no one get too invested in PCIe 4. I'm predicting some major jumps and mergers soon, especially with Intel getting into graphics.

Many years now I've been suggesting a good possibility AMD and Texas Instruments merge together. Physics and AI will be big and TI has the physics patents.


>

This is the only architecture that makes sense to me for future 8K gaming and proper lanes

 

[whm1974]

How long will PCIE4 video cards last when this should have been implemented years ago and PCIE5 is ready to come out ? These companies are all screwing with us and it's a chase the carrot game out our expense.

I'm not running any m.2 SSD but heard there is a bottleneck and speculation how PCIE4 will be for m.2 SSD to remove the bottleneck; especially for Servers, and PCIE5 will be for Video cards - especially for 8K gaming.

I doubt we will see 8K gaming anytime soon as even 4K gamers are only like lees then 1% of gamers.

 

[Thrashard]

Interesting thing I realized is what is going to happen when 8K and even 10K TV's come out ? They will be out sooner than later

 

[Cableman]

Interesting thing I realized is what is going to happen when 8K and even 10K TV's come out ? They will be out sooner than later

4k TVs came out in 2012. We are 7 years past that and around 1% of gamers are on 4k. You keep posting about 8k here and elsewhere. Maybe wait a few years for 4k and come back here 7-8 years later. So let's be optimistic - 8k for the win (1% adoption) in 2025?

 

[Thrashard]

Dell is already selling 8K displays from what I've seen. This is really making things confusing for people, other then myself.

When PCIE4 rolls out, it's always better to wait till Revision 2 & 3 so things get ironed out, but by the time Rev. 3 comes out, a whole new generation past Navi will be out that will really have the 4K support people should be having now or last year.

 

[whm1974]

Dell is already selling 8K displays from what I've seen. This is really making things confusing for people, other then myself.

When PCIE4 rolls out, it's always better to wait till Revision 2 & 3 so things get ironed out, but by the time Rev. 3 comes out, a whole new generation past Navi will be out that will really have the 4K support people should be having now or last year.

It more likely that most gamers will move to 1440p before going to 4K let alone 8K. This for the simple reason that 4K gaming capable dGPUs are expensive.

 

[NTMBK]

Dell is already selling 8K displays from what I've seen. This is really making things confusing for people, other then myself.

When PCIE4 rolls out, it's always better to wait till Revision 2 & 3 so things get ironed out, but by the time Rev. 3 comes out, a whole new generation past Navi will be out that will really have the 4K support people should be having now or last year.

We can barely run games at 4K smoothly- and these are games which are designed to run on the original XBox One and PS4. Imagine how much more demanding games are going to get when designed for the PS5.

8K is literally 4 times as many pixels; there's no way that GPUs will be anywhere near fast enough to push that many pixels, regardless of what PCIe slot they're plugged into. The only kind of 8K support we are likely to see is crappy upscaling from 4K with "AI" branding on it.

 

[whm1974]

We can barely run games at 4K smoothly- and these are games which are designed to run on the original XBox One and PS4. Imagine how much more demanding games are going to get when designed for the PS5.

8K is literally 4 times as many pixels; there's no way that GPUs will be anywhere near fast enough to push that many pixels, regardless of what PCIe slot they're plugged into. The only kind of 8K support we are likely to see is crappy upscaling from 4K with "AI" branding on it.

I don't think he realizes how difficult it is to get decent gaming performance out of 4K let alone 8K. Like I said dGPUs that can play at 4K with playable framerates are expensive and 8K cards don't even exist.

 

[Thrashard]

I know your system get's crippled once you go to 1440p and 4k, but who's fault is that ? This could have been achieved a few years ago. I think 8K exist but we can't have them anytime soon

My current video card is older than this GTX 980 review from 2014 showing pathetic 4K scores.

I love the comment on this article

https://www.anandtech.com/show/8526/nvidia-geforce-gtx-980-review/16

Sttm - Thursday, September 18, 2014 - link
"How will AMD and NVIDIA solve the problem they face and bring newer, better products to the market?"

My suggestion is they send their CEOs over to Intel to beg on their knees for access to their 14nm process. This is getting silly, GPUs shouldn't be 4 years behind CPUs on process node. Someone cut Intel a big fat check and get this done already.

 

[whm1974]

I know your system get's crippled once you go to 1440p and 4k, but who's fault is that ? This could have been achieved a few years ago. I think 8K exist but we can't have them anytime soon

My current video card is older than this GTX 980 review from 2014 showing pathetic 4K scores.

I love the comment on this article

https://www.anandtech.com/show/8526/nvidia-geforce-gtx-980-review/16

Sttm - Thursday, September 18, 2014 - link
"How will AMD and NVIDIA solve the problem they face and bring newer, better products to the market?"

My suggestion is they send their CEOs over to Intel to beg on their knees for access to their 14nm process. This is getting silly, GPUs shouldn't be 4 years behind CPUs on process node. Someone cut Intel a big fat check and get this done already.

I'm playing at 1600p with my GTX 970 with no issues. 4K is much harder to get playable framerates out of. My 30" display is good enough that I'm not going to go 4K anytime soon, especially considering how expensive the dGPUs are that I would need to play at that resolution.

 

[Thrashard]

I think the main roadblock are the companies themselves. Companies are not run like they were 30-40 years ago. Today it's all about, he who owns the most patents is King.

There is something going on with patent disputes that is preventing advancements.

There are rumors Lisa Su might go to Intel or merge with AMD. That seems a bit silly but something big is going to happen. If you look at the big picture with IBM, Intel, Nvidia, AMD. These companies are going to merge at some point.

 

[Cableman]

I think the main roadblock are the companies themselves. Companies are not run like they were 30-40 years ago. Today it's all about, he who owns the most patents is King.

There is something going on with patent disputes that is preventing advancements.

There are rumors Lisa Su might go to Intel or merge with AMD. That seems a bit silly but something big is going to happen. If you look at the big picture with IBM, Intel, Nvidia, AMD. These companies are going to merge at some point.

No offense, but your posts tend to be very bombastic. First you were talking about 8k and 10k gaming being around the corner, 32gb vram becoming standard soon, DDR 6, etc. Now AMD, Intel, Nvidia and IBM will be merging? What world do you live in?

 

[Thrashard]

We live in a world where we have a president bomb Kosovo and when his wife was Secretary of state years later having a private party in the Hamptons Long Island acting as an auctioneer and bidding agent host jobs that should be in America but moved to Kosovo.

The Off Topic and P&N forum is down the hall,
and to the left.

Keep politics out of tech discussions.

AT Mod Usandthem

 

[whm1974]

No offense, but your posts tend to be very bombastic. First you were talking about 8k and 10k gaming being around the corner, 32gb vram becoming standard soon, DDR 6, etc. Now AMD, Intel, Nvidia and IBM will be merging? What world do you live in?

Yeah really. How many gamers are still on 2GB cards if they are even using a dGPU to begin with?