PCI-Express: Sooner or later?

[igr111]

Hello all

I just wanted to open a discussion regarding PCI-Express. It is the latest buzzword in the computer world. Undobtedly, it is the future of graphics. However, is it necessary to upgrade to PCIe now? At the moment, PCIe holds no advantage over AGP. I feel that AGP bus still has quite a bit of reserve as far as powerful graphics cards go (geForce 6800 Ultra and Radeon X850XT PE). AGP should last until the next major chipset revision, which will probably happen before Longhorn ships.

What does everyone think? Is PCIe worth it now?
Thanks,
Igor

 

[imported_rod]

Well, the 7800gtx (the newest card from nVidia) is currently only PCI-E, and nVidia hasn't yet announced when (or if) there will be an AGP variant available - there probably will be, but it's not yet confirmed.

Also, The high end graphics cards (6800Ultra, X850XT) do perform a bit better on PCI-E when compared to AGP.

Anyway, if you were going to buy a new system, PCI-E would be the only way to go. But if you still have an AGP system, you can probably hold off upgrading for another 12months or so.

RoD

 

[mettleh3d]

PCIe imo, is only good for SLI, Xfire things. I see a Dual AGP solution in the near future. yeah, most def.

 

[SrGuapo]

Originally posted by: mettleh3d
PCIe imo, is only good for SLI, Xfire things. I see a Dual AGP solution in the near future. yeah, most def.

I seriously doubt it.

Anyways, if you plan on upgrading your video card any time soon, you will definately want to get POCI-e. It is doubtful that newer cards will come out in AGP form, so you will be limited on how far you can upgrade. There are great boards for both PCI-e and AGP in the same price range and the cards are around the same price, so there is no reason not to get PCI-e.

However, if you already have an AGP card that you plan on using for a while, AGP may be a better choice. Of coarse, when you do decide to upgrade you will have to buy a new motherboard as well...

 

[erorr404]

Originally posted by: igr111
Hello all

I just wanted to open a discussion regarding PCI-Express. It is the latest buzzword in the computer world. Undobtedly, it is the future of graphics. However, is it necessary to upgrade to PCIe now? At the moment, PCIe holds no advantage over AGP. I feel that AGP bus still has quite a bit of reserve as far as powerful graphics cards go (geForce 6800 Ultra and Radeon X850XT PE). AGP should last until the next major chipset revision, which will probably happen before Longhorn ships.

What does everyone think? Is PCIe worth it now?
Thanks,
Igor

you're right, PCI-E has no performance advantage of AGP with the current gen of cards. choosing between the two depends entirely on your platform.
if you have a system with an AGP motherboard with fairly up-to-date processor (say P4 3+ gHz), there is no reason to get a new mobo just for PCI-E.
if you're building a new system however, PCI-E is the only way to go. most new (high performance) motherboards use PCI-E. plus, you'll need a PCI-E slot if you want to upgrade video cards in the future.

 

[Some1ne]

Originally posted by: igr111
Hello all

I just wanted to open a discussion regarding PCI-Express. It is the latest buzzword in the computer world. Undobtedly, it is the future of graphics. However, is it necessary to upgrade to PCIe now? At the moment, PCIe holds no advantage over AGP. I feel that AGP bus still has quite a bit of reserve as far as powerful graphics cards go (geForce 6800 Ultra and Radeon X850XT PE). AGP should last until the next major chipset revision, which will probably happen before Longhorn ships.

What does everyone think? Is PCIe worth it now?
Thanks,
Igor

You're correct that in terms of performance there is no real advantage to PCI-E over AGP at the moment. The problem however is that regardless of the performance numbers, the major manufacturers have already switched over to designing and implementing cards that are native to PCI-E, and they are not implementing any new cards that are native to AGP (i.e. AGP support for new graphics cards happens solely through the addition of bridge-chips to native PCI-E cards), and sooner or later they will completely stop supporting AGP with their cards (and already there are PCI-E models that are not available at all in AGP versions).

So, although it still has the performance, the longevity of AGP is already severely limited...not due to performance issues, but due to the fact that the industry has simply already embraced PCI-E as the new standard. If you are building a new system, there's absolutely no reason to not get a board that has PCI-E support. If you are happy with your current AGP video card, then riding it until it is no longer adequate is an option, though as soon as it becomes time to upgrade you should definately also switch to a PCI-E capable mainboard. Upgrading to a new AGP card, or building a new system that does not support PCI-E, however, does not make any sense at all.

 

[RaiderJ]

Go with PCIe if you are looking to buy new - there is really no reason not too. However, AGP will still be an option for quite some time.

 

[MobiusPizza]

Well if you are upgrading because of PCI-E then I advice against it.
Wait till you are upgrading because of your aged computer then you get PCI-E for sure.

 

[EvilGavin]

Originally posted by: AnnihilatorX
Well if you are upgrading because of PCI-E then I advice against it.
Wait till you are upgrading because of your aged computer then you get PCI-E for sure.

That was a good way to put it. I'm going with PCI-e in the system I am building soon, just because I'd like to future proof a bit.

 

[cryptonomicon]

Originally posted by: igr111
Hello all

I just wanted to open a discussion regarding PCI-Express. It is the latest buzzword in the computer world. Undobtedly, it is the future of graphics. However, is it necessary to upgrade to PCIe now? At the moment, PCIe holds no advantage over AGP. I feel that AGP bus still has quite a bit of reserve as far as powerful graphics cards go (geForce 6800 Ultra and Radeon X850XT PE). AGP should last until the next major chipset revision, which will probably happen before Longhorn ships.

What does everyone think? Is PCIe worth it now?
Thanks,
Igor

imho, IT DOESNT MATTER.

mfgs frequently rotate in new product standards forcing the consumer to upgrade, whether the previous generation is obsolete or not. in this way they cultivate their profits.
OEMs accelerate this process.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: igr111

What does everyone think? Is PCIe worth it now?

If you are buying a new system now, most definately.

If you have P4 3.0ghz or faster, S754 A64 3000+ or faster, S939 AGP 3000+ or faster, then it is not worth it. I'd say for majority of these users it makes more sense financially to simply upgrade to R520 or G70 or even 6800GT/U/X850 series than buy a brand new motherboard +/cpu.

I have a feeling that Nvidia or ATI will still release their high-end videocards in AGP since the market for them is still there. Also mid-range R520/7800 cards will most likely be released in AGP and could offer better performance than today's high-end cards for cheaper. But in terms of sheer performance, you are looking at 0-2% tops for x850xt pe on PCIe vs. x850xt pe on AGP.

 

[Cerb]

Short-term: 6200TC. GF4 performance on the low-end, finally. There's actually a cheap card now that a gamer can really use.

Long-term: AGP will be phased out. New drive controllers will be PCI-E. GbE cards will be PCI-E (currently you can get them, but not terribly cheap). If buying a new system and not going really cheap*, PCI-E support is a no-brainer.

* s939 CPUs are still expensive for the performance, but s754, even with PCI-E, still doesn't give any CPU upgrade head-room...s754 still wins for the budget, if you're OK with tossing the mobo and CPU for an upgrade, which many of us are. There is, however, little reason, unless you already have a $200+ AGP card and no intention of upgrading it, to go with AGP/PCI over PCI-E/PCI, if going s939 or s775.

 

[KoolDrew]

Originally posted by: AnnihilatorX
Well if you are upgrading because of PCI-E then I advice against it.
Wait till you are upgrading because of your aged computer then you get PCI-E for sure.

 

[Dimmu]

AGP will not be gone for quite some time; years from now. But as previously mentioned, it will definately be taken over by PCIe.

 

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: mettleh3d
PCIe imo, is only good for SLI, Xfire things. I see a Dual AGP solution in the near future. yeah, most def.

There will never be Dual AGP in the sense that both will be AGP 8x.

AGP was a workaround for PCI, there is now a better workaround for PCI, called PCI-Express. AGP 1x was just a double pumped PCI bus, if you were to have 2 AGP slots, they would share bandwidth with each other, otherwise the complexity of the board would be much greater in having a third PCI bus added on. PCI-Express does this much simpler, many serial connections. Lower costs. No fighting for system resources.

AGP isn't going to progress any further.

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: mettleh3d
PCIe imo, is only good for SLI, Xfire things. I see a Dual AGP solution in the near future. yeah, most def.

Not possible to have two AGP buses, thus no "Dual AGP"

 

[LED]

It's about bandwith which PCI shares and limits ...

 

[mwmorph]

if yuo build new now, might as well go pci-e.

 

[Farmer]

Regardless the performance difference (there really is very little; I'm talking about actual, not spec-sheet), there are already a lot of cards out there that are PCI-e only, not to mention many of the new cards coming out (someone mentioned 7800GTX).

Like mwmorph said, if you want to build a new system, there is no sense in not getting a PCI-e graphics card and a PCI-e compatible mobo. However, if you have an AGP system with an outdated AGP card, getting an AGP ATI 9800 thru GFC 6800 will last you a while, and the recent graphics deals in Hot Deals have all been on AGP cards.

PCI-e necessity on the short run or the long run really depends on whether you build now or build later. If yer in IT or are working with massive system purchases, I see no reason not to go 100% PCI-e right now.

 

[igr111]

Thank you all for pitching into the discussion. After chasing the computer market for at least 6 years, I realize one important thing: It's the "now" that matters. "Future proofing" is arguably a useless concept. For example, when Athlon XP/nForce 2 400 Ultra was the hottest combo on the market, I purchased the 2500+ Barton chip with "future-proofing" in mind (I was going to upgrade to a 3200+ chip at some point). Fast forward several years into the future, now I'm upgrading to a whole new platform. That "cheap" upgrade to 3200+ makes absolutely no sense now.
In other words, when you actually decide that your computer needs an upgrade, you will be at least 2 platforms behind the times. So, my sentiment is to buy what you will use now. "Future proofing" doesn't work well with CPU/chipset launch cycles.
Maybe graphics cards can be somewhat "future-proof." But then again, SLI seems to be the hottest thing right now. However, the industry comes in cycles. Several years from now (maybe even sooner), when the power demands of those dual cards will get too great, a single-card setup will once again become very attractive.
So, I rationalize that it's wise to upgrade to what one can afford now. No sense in buying SLI motherboard if you can't afford 2 video cards (2 of the fastest video cards for that matter). No sense in getting nForce 4 chipset with PCIe if that Radeon 9800 Pro is still kicking out decent performance (and there is geForce 6800 Ultra still on AGP). nForce 3 is just as fast as nForce 4 (even faster in some benchmarks). The annoying thing is that by the time a graphics card rolls around that can actually use the performance benefit of PCIe, there will probably be a new PCIe chipset.

"Future-proofing" becomes outdated with each new industry cycle. That is my rant. Opinions are welcome.
Igor
P.S. I decided to upgrade to nForce 3 Ultra right now, because my Radeon 9800 XT still works well in current games. Venice 3000+ chip is a welcome change from 2500+ Barton (overclocked to 3200+). I do notice quite a bit of speed difference, especially in games.

 

[Cerb]

1. 2500+ to 3200+ would have made no sense as soon as the 2500+ came out, unless yours wouldn't even go above 2GHz. If you could get it to 2800+ or so, it would be nice until the A64.

2. Yes, you'll be behind for major upgrades. Right now, though, a cheap s939 will let you put in a budget chip, and then really get 2x performance. Really, with a drop-in upgrade. Something to think about for later on, even if you don't upgrade for a good while. It's quite enticing, given that the s754 chipsets and the s939 ones perform basically the same, and that most reasonably-priced motherboards have more features than most of us will use.

3. The GFX cards themselves are not future-proof by any means. Never have been, and never will be. Only the mobo itself can really be future-proof at all (edit: case and PSU, too). SLI is either for people who are stupid (2x6600GT rather than 1x 6800GT) or have too much money (2x6800GT or better). The only future-proofing involved is the PCI-e 16x slot and a few 1x slots on the board, for minor upgrades, like a new NIC, drive controller, FW800 card, etc..

4. Dude, there already are graphics chipsets out from ATi and nVidia that get real performance benefits from PCi-e 16x! They just happen to top out around $100 . Also, no, there will not be a new one by then. We'll get 4x slots on boards in place of 1x, and maybe 8x at some point, but the graphics card slot will likely remain at 16x at least until the others are readying for 8x. With ~4GB/s full duplex, there is bandwidth to spare for some time yet, with professional cards being the ones that will need more (don't be surprised if the 8x/8x SLI goes to 16x/16x SLI in the next few years, with 3DLabs cards and Quadro series cards using them first).